Is Craps A Loser?

I think it's a clear yes. By this I will explain. There are so many issues/problems with this game that makes it something a player might give up on.

1) Money Management. In BJ or Roulette, you know how much you have at any given time WITHOUT THE NEED TO COUNT YOUR CHIPS. In craps, most people lose track of how much they have/how they are doing. In roulette or BJ, if you're a serious player, you would leave the table if you lose a few times in a row. In craps however, hardly anyone does it as there's these ettiquette issues with coloring up all the time at a craps table. It's also just hard to walk away with a big stack of reds.

2) The Pace. It's way too fast. At a full table, it's ok. But when it's with 1 or 2 people, they keep pushing the dice out. It puts the shooter in a stressed position. Imagine shooting - the stick calls out the number - the stick slides the dice RIGHT BACK TO YOU and expects you to shoot right away. I think at that pace, it's like 3-4 rolls per minute. I don't think anyone old can handle this kind of pace as it is not a leisurely pace. I know you can ask to slow the game down etc... but it makes you feel like you're holding up the table sometimes. You can't really count your chips, place your bets leisurely, and then shoot the dice. I would have to say the right pace is about a minute per roll. That's just like a pitcher pitching without a chance at a break if it's at 3 rolls per minute. If you're playing by yourself, then you are even in more trouble as you ALMOST NEVER have a chance to count your chips. Of course, you can ask the game to be slowed down or try setting the dice etc... but setting the dice DOESN'T actually give you break time as you would get as someone else is shooting the dice and you're just sitting there leisurely doing whatever you want. When you're gambling you're already nervous. Throw in all these things, people's hands will start to shake. That's why there's this insane intimidation factor. With all these ettiquette issues, it really isn't as easy as it sounds requesting all these things of dealers (one roll per minute etc...).

These are the 2 main ones I can think of now. I feel that there are a lot more problems with the game (not the game itself, but the way it is done/dealt). I will post more as this discussion continues. So do you guys think it's HARD TO WIN MONEY in craps because of these issues? Is craps an extremely uncomfortable game? I would say it is as stressful as it gets.

Stressful? That's funny, because I absolutely love craps. I first learned to play it in the spring, and it's slowly taken over my play at the casinos to the point where I almost play it exclusively now.

Your first point is definitely a valid one. It's really easy to have large amounts of your bankroll out without even realizing it. That's why you have to just practice some discipline, and not try to expose your bank too much.

As far as counting the bankroll goes, you don't have to bet every single come out roll. Take a break, count how much you have, enjoy a drink!

Your second point can be a good one, like you said, if the table is empty. If you don't like empty tables, don't go to one! There's almost always a table around with a decent amount of people!

I think you're stressing out too much about this game. It's a game, enjoy it for what it is! Enjoy the cheering and the camaraderie!

Quote: ElectricDreams

Stressful? That's funny, because I absolutely love craps. I first learned to play it in the spring, and it's slowly taken over my play at the casinos to the point where I almost play it exclusively now.

I started playing later than you. I love the game but now I also hate many aspects of it.

Quote: ElectricDreams

Your second point can be a good one, like you said, if the table is empty. If you don't like empty tables, don't go to one! There's almost always a table around with a decent amount of people!

I actually gave it some thought. Then I guess the problem is with that when there's not much people at the table. I think there's a rule I will go by now. It's always playing with a friend.

Quote: ElectricDreams

I think you're stressing out too much about this game. It's a game, enjoy it for what it is! Enjoy the cheering and the camaraderie!

I totally appreciate your comments. But I still think it a case of easier said than done. I think that's why people are always saying the craps pit is intimidating. I also think it depends on where you play, the crew, the boxman's body language/attitude. That makes a serious difference. Do you play by yourself/have met rude dealers etc...?

Personally I prefer playing at a quiet table no matter what game I'm playing and even better if I'm the only one there. I never have an issue with craps being dealt too fast when I'm shooting becuase I'll only lean over and pick up the dice when I'm ready. I'll count my chips, take a drink, light a smoke or just stand there watching other players toss their chips down. I may have had a few nasty looks or rolled eyes from the crew over this but I couldn't care less. It's my money, I'm shooting and no one is going to make me throw the dice before I want. If you look at it that way, take your time and stop thinking about what anyone else says or does then you'll be fine, and from the sound of it you'll have less stress and enjoy the game more.

That's why I think I'm going to start to take the serious approach (not caring what the dealers say etc...). Sometimes you do hear dealers try to speed/rush/hurry up the game by saying "sir please shoot the dice" or "time is money" etc... That's just some of these "rush tactics" they use to make you speed up the game to try to get more rolls in. These are some of the issues I face that makes people feel uncomfortable sometimes.

I agree with you, that playing at an empty table sucks. Even with a buddy, it still sucks because I mean, if we get on a bad streak, then it's only up to ourselves to dig ourselves out..
Usually though, if we start playing, more people will come up and play.
It seems to me, that if I find a table that's full..when I walk up and a streak of bad luck happens, it empties out, and I'm again left alone...

The reason craps is so hard to beat is all the multiple bets that can be made and we hate to miss the action. The more bets we make such as multiple place bets including across or inside, the harder it is to win as the 7 is just too powerful. Stick with one good bet like the pass-odds bet, with a good money mgt plan on the odds bet, and will see your wins escalate.

Quote: TIMSPEED

I agree with you, that playing at an empty table sucks. Even with a buddy, it still sucks because I mean, if we get on a bad streak, then it's only up to ourselves to dig ourselves out..

Actually, with a buddy it is MUCH MUCH MUCH better as you can sit out while he is shooting to count your chips. It also takes a lot of the focus off of you as you do your little things. If you're by yourself, it feels like the whole table has to wait for you or "let me know when you're ready".

Quote: TIMSPEED

Usually though, if we start playing, more people will come up and play.

Yes, this is the best part. Unfortunately, I played starting at 2am once and it was myself the whole time pretty much. By the time someone came in, I was already down to a point where there was no need to count my chips.

Quote: TIMSPEED

It seems to me, that if I find a table that's full..when I walk up and a streak of bad luck happens, it empties out, and I'm again left alone...

My new plan is if I am playing by myself, then just leave asap as you see people starting to leave. This also brings up another issue. If I'm going to use this "full table" strategy, then that means I can't play the don'ts (if the don'ts succeed then the table would be empty - which is not what I want).

So at this point I still think craps is NOT a money maker because of the reasons presented and also the tipping rate is higher than other games (in my opinion). There's also too many of these ettiquette issues that make the game hard to play in a lax manner.

I guess the obvious is "of course, Craps is a loser" because every bet has a built-in house advantage. Some of them are small, but the house usually wins because they have a virtually unlimited bankroll and players have a limited one...

If the game is moving too fast, slow it down. If they look at you weird, tell them it is your money and you'll play at your speed, not theirs. "Hey, stick chick, I don't see YOUR money out there!!"--and, if they keep pushing you too fast on a nearly empty table, walk away. I often just let the dice sit while I make sure the other end of the table gets their bets in and those hands back. Yeah, the hands don't alter the game (wink) but I don't want them out there anyway!!

If you want to know how much money you have, place a $1 chip between $100 groups and you can count it pretty fast. I always know to within a few dollars what I have on the rail and what I have in play. That is until my wife snatches a handful of reds to get money for the slots!!

If it isn't fun, don't play!!! I feel relaxed at the table--it is the most comfortable game in the casino for me. I don't have to bet ANYTHING if I don't like the way things are going, I can skip certain shooters if they irritate me (the guys who toss dice so hard they hit the back wall and end up in front of the shooter bug me and SEEM TO not shoot "good" numbers very often), and I can talk to other folks if they want to talk... When the conditions aren't good, I walk...

I go with my entertainment dollars and I expect to be entertained. When it is not "fun", I do something else.

So...no casino game is a "winner" for us in the long run (the non-advantage players--maybe it will be a winner for advantage players or the inventors we have here!!). Pick one you enjoy to risk your money on...

If you're shooting, take your time. There's no rule saying that you have to lean over to shoot as soon as the stick gives you the dice. If you want to pause to cound your chips, DO IT! This is particularly true if you're the only one at the table. Go as slow as you want!

If you're having trouble keeping up when someone else is shooting, it's probably because you're too busy maintaining too many bets. Keep your bets simple, and you should always have enough time to do what you gotta do, including counting 10 reds to slip in a white, to make totaling the bankroll easier.


The one thing I hate that stickpeople do to speed up the game is when I'm the new shooter and they give me all five dice. Yeah, I realize that it doesn't matter, but I want to fiddle with all five momentarily. In the meantime, the stick is right there, ready to scoop up three as soon as I touch two....

Quote: focd

There's these ettiquette issues with coloring up all the time at a craps table. It's also just hard to walk away with a big stack of reds.

If you don't have more than 10 or 20, how about putting them in a jacket, shirt or pants pocket?

Quote: focd

I know you can ask to slow the game down etc... but it makes you feel like you're holding up the table sometimes

It's your money and it's your game, especially at a not-too-busy table. Those dealers aren't going anywhere before their next break. And if they're worried about fiddling with their precious dice, Tough!!

If the dealers are making you stressed about the number of rolls you do a minute or you feel pressured, there are a couple of problems. I would suggest that you slow the game down to your pace. If you still feel pressure, remember that it's YOU that is experiencing the feeling. Someone else's feeling of pressure might be another's feeling of exhileration. 15 seconds per roll might seem slow to some people -- they come FOR the action.

But the casino shouldn't be about you feeling pressure. You should get out of the casino experience what you want to get out of it. It's your money and you are there to be entertained. If you aren't enjoying yourself or start to hate something, you gotta reflect on what is making you feel that way and do something about it. For example, only play at the craps table when it's more than 1/2 full. Find a different enjoyable game. Find a casino and dealers who don't pressure you to throw the dice. Once a crew understands your speed of play and you TIP them (such as a tip with your bet), they should slow down the game so that you don't feel pressured. The stickman should be catering to you, not some rolls/hour calculation that the casino tells them to.

Quote: focd

There's these ettiquette issues with coloring up all the time at a craps table.

I missed this the first time around.

Color up "all the time" ?

If you're working with a good crew, there should be NO need to color up except when you are ready to leave. When paying a winner, the dealer will occasionally look at your rack, and suggest you drop some whites and/or reds when you have too many of them. I.E. If you hit your $12 six, he'll ask for a white and give three reds. If you hit a $18 six, he may as for a red and give one white and one green. If all you're doing is betting the minimum, like $12 6/8, he may eventually ask for $11 and give a green.



Do NOT ever let the pressure bother you.

Take your time. Sometimes (rarely) if there is a delay in the game, the players will start to grumble to get the dice out while the are still hot. However, once out, other players rarely say anything as the shooter takes his time, setting the dice, whatever.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The one thing I hate that stickpeople do to speed up the game is when I'm the new shooter and they give me all five dice. Yeah, I realize that it doesn't matter, but I want to fiddle with all five momentarily. In the meantime, the stick is right there, ready to scoop up three as soon as I touch two....

You bet he is!! That stickman has to watch the dice: if you've picked up two and tossed them down to the other end of the table he has to watch but he also has to watch the other three until they are safely back in the bowl.

I just pick up the two nearest to me ... I don't really select two out of the five but that opportunity is being offered to you though you are not expected to take all day to make your selection. Its simply a courtesy to demonstrate to you and to all the other players that you do have some choice in the matter and you may indeed examine and select as you wish.

Its hard sometimes not to feel rushed, particularly if you are playing in a Sweat The Money joint. Dice move real fast on the Florida Day Boats. Dice in the Isle of Capri in Biloxi, Mississippi move real fast because its a real sweat the money joint. Dice on the Vegas Strip tend to move faster than Downtown. Locals casinos can be even slower though that can also be due to inexperienced dealers. Don't feel pressured. Take your time. Its okay to annoy the crew, its not okay to annoy the other players. I know its a fine dividing line but the crew has to put up with some annoyances from time to time. If you are the sole shooter the crew may still want you to roll promptly but who is there to complain if you keep the pace down a bit by just not moving the dice as fast as they want you to? If its a Friday night the pace will be fast. That is when the casino makes its money.

My companion in her first roll asked aloud "are you ready" (speaking to the players at the other end of the table). The stickman immediately said Yes. Its sort of a fine line for everyone.

Quote: FleaStiff

... I just pick up the two nearest to me ... I don't really select two out of the five but ....

Oh no, no! You have to look closely and be certain to pick out two that are smiling at you! ;-)

Quote: focd

Sometimes you do hear dealers try to speed/rush/hurry up the game by saying "sir please shoot the dice" or "time is money" etc...

Time is money? Yeah, my money. I would consider coloring and walking away if a dealer said that to me.

Quote: dudestupid

Time is money? Yeah, my money

Actually, that is a perfect retort to use.

Quote: Doc

Oh no, no! You have to look closely and be certain to pick out two that are smiling at you! ;-)

Oh thats it! I always just picked up the two that were closest to me and threw them ... until the time that darned stickman dumped the bowl out and there were THREE dice all the same distance from me. That sure confused me and delayed the game.

I usually am quite patient with these people who want to caress the dice before they throw them but when it gets to the point that half the players at the table are groaning, the dice crew has obviously failed somewhere to get their message across. Though I sure have seen some Boxmen jump on a guy without reason though it usually happens when another player at the table has been noticeably delaying the game.

As far as a die going overboard I think I've requested same dice only once! I figure its their dice and their game and if its going to be faster just give me another pair of dice until the box okays putting that errant one back into play sometime.

Focd

In your mind, craps is dead, for all the reasons you listed! Did you ever think about buying a good book on the game before you started playing it?

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1) Money Management. In BJ or Roulette, you know how much you have at any given time WITHOUT THE NEED TO COUNT YOUR CHIPS.

With any table game you have your chips right in front of you, in craps you have two places in your chip rack that lets you see how much money you have, the one closest to the inside of the table is for your betting chips, the one that is closest to you is for your winning chips! Now here is the hard part most players will have three different color chips in their rack, say white, red, and green!

Every five red chips you put one white chip you now have $25, next five chips one white chip guess what you now have $50 and so on! That should take care of your money counting issue!

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2) The Pace. It's way too fast. At a full table, it's OK. But when it's with 1 or 2 people, they keep pushing the dice out. It puts the shooter in a stressed position

If you feel uncomfortable playing any table game you shouldn't be playing, stay out of the casinos, you have a problem, now I am sorry to tell you that, but in my mind it's the truth. I have to go back to the first thing I told you buy a good book, John Patrick's craps would be a good start, then sit down and read it a few times, before you go back into a casino!

Find a different table to play on if you don't like playing with one or two players, what's so hard about that?

Quote:

So do you guys think it's HARD TO WIN MONEY in craps because of these issues? Is craps an extremely uncomfortable game? I would say it is as stressful as it gets.

Craps is one of the best table game you can play, but you need to read something on the game before you play, just like any other game you play in a casino. Then you need to practice what you are doing when you are playing the game , you can do that with WinCraps, it's free on line, or you can buy the full version. That is the first thing I would do If I was you.

Craps is one of the most social games in a casino, every player on the table will try to help you out when you are playing! When you say craps is the most stressful game in the casino, do your self a favor read the books before you play any game, and learn everything you can about it, before you play, if you are still having problems don't play, you should never set foot in a casino.

Sorry but sometimes the truth hurts, there are people that should never go into a casino, and you just might be one of them!

..

Quote: Doc

Oh no, no! You have to look closely and be certain to pick out two that are smiling at you! ;-)

One of my totally unfounded superstitions is to never pick two dice out of the five that are showing a 7. It is such a phobia for me that I cringe when I see other shooters do it. I guess it relates to the stickman never passing the dice to you showing a 7 or a craps. I will usually pick a pair or 3's or 4's rolling the 5 dice if necessary to get them.

Quote: kenarman

the stickman never passing the dice to you showing a 7 or a craps.

I didnt know they werent supposed to do that, so I learned something today. I don't like it when they don't preserve the roll when they return it to the center, so we can all see it. Isn't that also something they are to do?

How many of you will try and grab the same two dice that the previous shooter had, if they had a good roll?

I will do it all the time, but you need a stick who is not too aggressive when they add the remaining 3 dice to the lot. This is one superstition that works!
The only times I have bad rolls after a good roll is when I was not able to ascertain exactly which two dice were in play before.

Quote: odiousgambit

I didnt know they werent supposed to do that, so I learned something today. I don't like it when they don't preserve the roll when they return it to the center, so we can all see it. Isn't that also something they are to do?

In my experience preserving the roll never seems to be a big deal with most stickman. Some of the dealers on the forum should be able to confirm if that is something they are taught. Personally I usually throw with a pair of 4's up for no particularly good reason since I am not trying to dice set. A good stickman will usually pick up on that and pass the dice to me showing the 4's, if I hold the dice long enough for anybody to notice he he.

Quote: superrick

In your mind, craps is dead, for all the reasons you listed! Did you ever think about buying a good book on the game before you started playing it?

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. It has nothing to do with reading a book or not. Why do you think people say that craps is intimidating? I have played craps nonstop for over 3 months. By nonstop I mean nonstop. So I am not unfamiliar with the game.

Quote: superrick

With any table game you have your chips right in front of you, in craps you have two places in your chip rack that lets you see how much money you have, the one closest to the inside of the table is for your betting chips, the one that is closest to you is for your winning chips! Now here is the hard part most players will have three different color chips in their rack, say white, red, and green!?

Every five red chips you put one white chip you now have $25, next five chips one white chip guess what you now have $50 and so on! That should take care of your money counting issue!

Once again, you're totally simplifying issues. I am sure almost no one knows how exactly how much they have in front of them. In BJ and roulette you have stacks in front of you of some sort of amount. In craps, even if you had amounts seperated, constant need of chips to bet messes up these divided portions. Also, you won't have that luxury of counting all that when you're playing by yourself. If you're going to argue that everyone knows their bankroll, then this is obviously false. Yes, approximately, but never really exact. When you're playing by yourself at 4-5 rolls per minute, you almost never know. Even if you had dividers, it takes time to set them up. I said that if the table is empty and you're playing by yourself, you would not really have the time to set it up. Of course, you can always say that you can call the game to a stop and count them as you wish. But it's not as simple as it sounds. That's like saying you can go in and out consistently of a BJ game without getting a nasty look or comment from the dealer.

Quote: superrick

If you feel uncomfortable playing any table game you shouldn't be playing, stay out of the casinos, you have a problem, now I am sorry to tell you that, but in my mind it's the truth. I have to go back to the first thing I told you buy a good book, John Patrick's craps would be a good start, then sit down and read it a few times, before you go back into a casino!

Find a different table to play on if you don't like playing with one or two players, what's so hard about that?

Well, not all places have multiples tables open at once. It has nothing to do with problems being in a casino. It also has nothing to do with reading. I think you're simply oversimplifying issues by giving simple responses. Why do you think people complain about dealers pushing out the dice too quickly? I know what you're thinking. Your response is like you can always demand your own pace, set the dice etc... but I've seen way too many dealers say things to speed up the game. It's also annoying to color up in and out in a craps pit and that's why they always tell you to color up when you leave all at once.

Quote: superrick

Craps is one of the most social games in a casino, every player on the table will try to help you out when you are playing! When you say craps is the most stressful game in the casino, do your self a favor read the books before you play any game, and learn everything you can about it, before you play, if you are still having problems don't play, you should never set foot in a casino.

Again, true but also not true. I'm surprised I am hearing this from someone from this forum telling me not to set foot in a casino. I also do honestly think it's nonsense to say craps is not stressful. Craps is actually so antisocial sometimes especially when players play the don'ts. You have people giggling when you lose or saying things out loud when you make your bets. I've even had dealers tell me people get into fights over playing the don'ts. So how can it be social? I really don't mean to be rude but I think a lot of your advice is nonsense. One is reading and the other is in real life. If craps wasn't stressful/intimidating, then why would people even mention it all the time. Even people in the forums say that they get dirty looks sometimes from dealers. You almost never hear it in BJ or roulette. Once again, even if your intentions are good, I personally think it's not helpful at all.

focd

I just might be wasting my time with you, but for the benefit of anybody else that might have a problem with playing craps, and they feel intimidated let's try this again!

The only game I play in a casino is craps, as I feel it's one of the only ones you can beat, along with BJ, and poker. All casino games are negative-expectation games, and the very simple way to find out anything about them is to read a good book on the subject, just like anything else you do not know anything about in life!

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Quote: superrick
In your mind, craps is dead, for all the reasons you listed! Did you ever think about buying a good book on the game before you started playing it?

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Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. It has nothing to do with reading a book or not. Why do you think people say that craps is intimidating? I have played craps nonstop for over 3 months. By nonstop I mean nonstop. So I am not unfamiliar with the game.

Focd I play craps just about everyday, and I seek-out tables that have no players on them! The only time I have ever had any problem with the speed of the game was when a suit didn't want me shooting, they were sweating the money! By this I mean that they were losing and they wanted me off the table, I was told that I could set the dice but I had to shot faster, as a way to get me off the table. There were no other players on the table and no one standing around waiting to play! This is call heat, and you can read all about it in a good book on craps!

I have never seen anybody forced into shooting faster when there was no one one the table, and I have been playing craps for years!

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Every five red chips you put one white chip you now have $25, next five chips one white chip guess what you now have $50 and so on! That should take care of your money counting issue!

Once again, you're totally simplifying issues. I am sure almost no one knows how exactly how much they have in front of them.

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you're going to argue that everyone knows their bankroll, then this is obviously false. Yes, approximately, but never really exact. When you're playing by yourself at 4-5 rolls per minute, you almost never know. Even if you had dividers, it takes time to set them up. I said that if the table is empty and you're playing by yourself, you would not really have the time to set it up.

With the money issue you have with counting the chips, I gave you the simplest way you can count your chips in the rack, I did not want to make it to complicated, if you can tell how much money in chips you have with BJ or roulette you should have no problem with the system I gave you to count your chips, again you can find it in most books on craps! You have the right to put your chips in the rack and you have control over the game when you are doing it, no dealer or boxman is going to tell you have to shoot before you put your chips in the rack! Take your time if you have a problem!

Yes you are right about not all casinos having more than one table, and I don't know where you are playing, although most places that have casino do have more than one casino in the city or town that you are playing at, here is Vegas it's no problem finding a table at a different casino! Also it's no problem finding tables with a lot of players on the tables!

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It's also annoying to color up in and out in a craps pit and that's why they always tell you to color up when you leave all at once.

There is no reason to color up unless you are leaving the table, think about what you are saying, you want the whole table to stop dead because you feel the need to color up your chips so you can count them when a roll is going on. Most table will never do that for you unless you are leaving the table, it would be discourteous to the rest of the players on the table to stop the game for you!

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Quote: superrick
Craps is one of the most social games in a casino, every player on the table will try to help you out when you are playing! When you say craps is the most stressful game in the casino, do your self a favor read the books before you play any game, and learn everything you can about it, before you play, if you are still having problems don't play, you should never set foot in a casino.


Again, true but also not true. I'm surprised I am hearing this from someone from this forum telling me not to set foot in a casino. I also do honestly think it's nonsense to say craps is not stressful. Craps is actually so antisocial sometimes especially when players play the don'ts. You have people giggling when you lose or saying things out loud when you make your bets. I've even had dealers tell me people get into fights over playing the don'ts. So how can it be social? I really don't mean to be rude but I think a lot of your advice is nonsense. One is reading and the other is in real life. If craps wasn't stressful/intimidating, then why would people even mention it all the time. Even people in the forums say that they get dirty looks sometimes from dealers. You almost never hear it in BJ or roulette. Once again, even if your intentions are good, I personally think it's not helpful at all.

I see players that have never played the game of craps, having a great time playing, with the help of the dealers and the players that are standing next to them everyday. When you say the game is antisocial when you are playing the don't this is not true, you have don't players playing everyday with no problems, they are betting against the house just like everybody else that is on the table, I have never seen a fight on the craps tables yet, and I am not saying that this could not happen, but it can happen walking into a church, if you just bump into someone who is having a bad day. People get into fights everyday, at work, at home , in bars and the list goes on and on!

I get dirty looks from my wife everyday when she has a problem with me, or anybody else that I might have been rude with, it just does not happen only on a craps table.

People are intimidated by anything they know nothing about, hell I think I might have been intimidated before I kissed the first girl, because I didn't know what to expect, but unfortunately I didn't know how to read when I was five!
If you can't overcome your fears, and you just find it to stressful and intimidating, I would just walk over to the BJ or roulette table or walk out the door. I don't know what other kind of encouragement anybody could give you!

Please don't think that I am trying to be a wise guy, I am trying to give you simple answers to your problem, and the best thing you can do to help your self is to read a good book, the first thing I do with anybody that wants to learn the game is hand them one of my books, and tell them to read it so we can have some common ground that we can talk about the game!
As my dad always told me, if you don't know ask someone to help you out, and they will if they can!

Because I am a so-called DI, there are a lot of crap tables that I get harassment at, and I have never let it bother me, I think it's funny, that casinos will do anything they can to stop me from shooting, but I do not see that with any other players unless the casino is a sweat joint, and the shooter is getting lucky and is on a big roll.

What I do see everyday is dealers and boxmen helping out new players, they go out of their way to help, and do a good job of it!
I would like to se you on a table here in Vegas some time and hope that you can get over your problem!
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Quote: superrick

All casino games are negative-expectation games, and the very simple way to find out anything about them is to read a good book on the subject, just like anything else you do not know anything about in life!

I agree with what you say, but reading is ONLY part of the help you need. What you really need to do with a game like craps is NOT JUST READ but play it. That's like playing basketball or becoming a driver. You can't just read and expect to become good at it. It takes actual hands on practice.

Quote: superrick

I play craps just about everyday, and I seek-out tables that have no players on them! The only time I have ever had any problem with the speed of the game was when a suit didn't want me shooting, they were sweating the money! By this I mean that they were losing and they wanted me off the table, I was told that I could set the dice but I had to shot faster, as a way to get me off the table. There were no other players on the table and no one standing around waiting to play! This is call heat, and you can read all about it in a good book on craps!

Maybe I just learned something new. But to tell you the truth, I have read a lot online and real books. How do you think I know numbers like 1.41 and 1.52%??? I am in no way saying casinos FORCE you to do anything. But it's just that sort of pressure that they apply. Of course, I can get angry and yell back at them, but that is the last thing I really want my casino experience to be. Some of this might have to do with etiquette. It's like a shooter can pass the dice at any time right? But if you actually did that at a busy table, you wouldn't expect them to say something negative or give you a weird look?

Quote: superrick

With the money issue you have with counting the chips, I gave you the simplest way you can count your chips in the rack, I did not want to make it to complicated, if you can tell how much money in chips you have with BJ or roulette you should have no problem with the system I gave you to count your chips, again you can find it in most books on craps! You have the right to put your chips in the rack and you have control over the game when you are doing it, no dealer or boxman is going to tell you have to shoot before you put your chips in the rack! Take your time if you have a problem!

Seriously, I know it sounds dumb to say things like "I can't keep track of my chips". But this is TRUE in terms of craps. In BJ you know you have 300 bucks and if you lose 4 10 dollar hands in a row, you know you have exactly 260. The same can be said about roulette. The same cannot be said about craps. Hardly anyone knows how much they have at any given time UNLESS they have just counted it. They can know how much they have IF THE TABLE IS BUSY and they have the time to count it. But usually people making multiple bets will always LOSE TRACK QUICKLY! 44 inside, come bet with odds etc... How can you keep track of all this at once at a fast paced table when you are playing by yourself or if there are too many people? Of course, if you're just making a line bet then it's easy to keep track of. That's why all along I disagreed with what you said based on experience. If you disagree with me then I do not know what to say.

Quote: superrick

There is no reason to color up unless you are leaving the table, think about what you are saying, you want the whole table to stop dead because you feel the need to color up your chips so you can count them when a roll is going on. Most table will never do that for you unless you are leaving the table, it would be discourteous to the rest of the players on the table to stop the game for you!!

I'm not saying this is polite but is also a problem in craps. Think about counting all these red chips as opposed to having a few greens for that bet. For places that have one table, it's not that easy to come in and out. If you buy in, they usually give you 20 reds, so if you lose like 30 bucks are you going to color those up or are you going to walk away? So you want in after 15 minutes again? Are you going to buy in again after cashing out at the cashier? YOu also have to make sure that your pockets can hold like 20 chips.

Quote: superrick

I see players that have never played the game of craps, having a great time playing, with the help of the dealers and the players that are standing next to them everyday. When you say the game is antisocial when you are playing the don't this is not true, you have don't players playing everyday with no problems, they are betting against the house just like everybody else that is on the table, I have never seen a fight on the craps tables yet, and I am not saying that this could not happen, but it can happen walking into a church, if you just bump into someone who is having a bad day. People get into fights everyday, at work, at home , in bars and the list goes on and on!

I have to disagree with you on this one for sure. How often do you see don't players start having friendly conversations aloud with the do players. It happens but usually the feeling is hostile. If you disagree with me then we're going to have to disagree. It might be a regional thing. Honestly, I have not played enough in Nevada to know, but based on my experience and talking to dealers, DO NOT PLAY THE DON'Ts. A lot of people play the don'ts in CA and it's fine. I have even had this dealer ask me WHY when I placed a bet in the don't come box. Almost EVERYONE in Reno hates the don'ts at least from my experience (dealers and players). Unless you are playing by yourself of course.

Quote: superrick

I get dirty looks from my wife everyday when she has a problem with me, or anybody else that I might have been rude with, it just does not happen only on a craps table.

Would you ever consider playing at a 50 dollar minimum table and go in and then sit out and then go in and then sit out after each hand. I wonder what the reaction is at a full table like this. Of course, you can do it, but what do you think the reaction is from players, dealers, and the pit boss?

Quote: superrick

Please don't think that I am trying to be a wise guy, I am trying to give you simple answers to your problem, and the best thing you can do to help your self is to read a good book, the first thing I do with anybody that wants to learn the game is hand them one of my books, and tell them to read it so we can have some common ground that we can talk about the game!

I really don't know what to think.
ME = stressed about craps need advice
YOU = you have a problem don't step into a casino
which is similar to
ME = want to improve on lowering stress while studying/test taking
YOU = the problem is with you, don't study

But if you intentions were really good, then thanks for your advice. It's just I think that you're not quite understanding what I'm trying to describe.

Quote: focd

It's just I think that you're not quite understanding what I'm trying to describe.

That is a common problem in many areas of life.

As for craps, we all experience different things. I've not really had all that much negativity from players or dealers about being on the Don't side. Some. Its minor. I don't really get affected by it. Ofcourse someone who abruptly leaves the table could be leaving for any number of reasons unrelated to my shooting from the Don't. Verbal comments addressed to me by other players are a bit more obvious in their nature but really don't affect me all that much. Dealer comments are a bit more significant but its my money and I'll lose it how I please! (And ofcourse that Stickman who told me not to bet against a pregnant woman shooting the dice was probably joking but I surely went along with it and winked at the BoxGirl when I changed my bet from DontPass to PassLine. All I really recall about this incident was that it was humorous and that she did indeed make her point).

As for counting chips, we can ALL count chips with ease when we have some leisure time. Its just hard to do it during the game. Players use different techniques to stay aware of what chips they have and to keep them segregated. None of the techniques are optimal. I think I'm going to use that 'white chip separator' idea. It can't be any worse than my present system that doesn't work too well anyway.

Its a negative expectation game. Some players are drunk. Some are noisy. Some focus on exuberant hollering as part of the game, some just quietly stand there all night long making money! Some believe in dice control... passionately. Most tend not to believe in it. So far the casinos are amongst the non-believers.

I don't have a need to know my exact chip count at any given moment.

Buy in for $100. Use one white cheque to mark out $50, and a second white to mark out the next $25. The balance sits to the right of that second white check. A glance down shows $75 plus change (<$25) to the right. Mark out the next $25 or $50 as you go, if you're lucky enough to win. Adjust the color of your marker cheques according to your bankroll and buy in, obviously.

What's the big deal?

If you need an exact count, sit out a roll and count. You can always climb back in with a come bet. If the crew is hurrying you up at an empty table, leave.

Almost all my play has been in Milwaukee, and playing the Don'ts is no big deal. It's a very tolerant house -- they put up with all manner of fiddling during your dice selection, and dice setting is no big deal.

If you play for a while you will learn how to estimate your chip count fairly quickly just by eye. Otherwise you can use a quick tell method. Next time you are playing put your four fingers over your chips from one end or the other of the rack. Then count how many chips constitute "four fingers". For me that's about 20 chips. After that you can simply use 1 finger = 5 chips, 2 fingers = 10 and so on. A quick calculation can tell you all you need to know.

What I do most of the time is separate my buy-in from my winnings. That way you can pretty much tell if you are ahead or behind. Since most of my buy-in is for "flash" i.e. comp purposes I will ensure that if I'm into my buy-in I will only go as deep as my session budget permits. I do this by putting a white chip in the row where I will stop if I start going down. Then I use that as a trailing stop - for every 100 I go up I put another 100 in the escrow account and when I hit that new stop I color and cash.

If you feel rushed you're allowing the stick to rush you. Simply say, "not ready yet" or something like that and they'll pull them away. When selecting dice I always take the ones that have six sides and dots - dots are important - the other ones are sure losers.

Quote: Martin

... When selecting dice I always take the ones that have six sides and dots - dots are important - the other ones are sure losers.

I like your perspective on this, Martin. On the other hand, every time I have ever gone seven out, those dice had dots.

Quote: Doc

On the other hand, every time I have ever gone seven out, those dice had dots.

That's because you didn't give them a little kiss. At least talk to them with some sweet imprecations. You gotta show a little love, after all.

Quote: SanchoPanza

You gotta show a little love, after all.

They ain't never showed me none.

Quote: FleaStiff

They ain't never showed me none.

Ah yes. They can indeed be more fickle than many a woman.

Craps is not as confusing as it looks. It actually is an easy game to learn. An understanding of the basics of the game and how to make a passline bet will get you started on your way. You don’t have to be concerned with any other of the craps bets when you begin to play craps.

Craps is not as confusing as it looks. It actually is an easy game to learn. An understanding of the basics of the game and how to make a passline bet will get you started on your way. You don’t have to be concerned with any other of the craps bets when you begin to play craps.

Craps is not as confusing as it looks. It actually is an easy game to learn. An understanding of the basics of the game and how to make a passline bet will get you started on your way. You don’t have to be concerned with any other of the craps bets when you begin to play craps.

Craps is not as confusing as it looks. It actually is an easy game to learn. An understanding of the basics of the game and how to make a passline bet will get you started on your way. You don’t have to be concerned with any other of the craps bets when you begin to play craps.

Craps is not as confusing as it looks. It actually is an easy game to learn. An understanding of the basics of the game and how to make a passline bet will get you started on your way. You don’t have to be concerned with any other of the craps bets when you begin to play craps.

Craps is not as confusing as it looks. It actually is an easy game to learn. An understanding of the basics of the game and how to make a passline bet will get you started on your way. You don’t have to be concerned with any other of the craps bets when you begin to play craps.

Obviously someone needs to inflate their post count.
Others need to count their chips.
Always refreshing, the non politically correct posters on this board, thanks SR!

Quote: Martin

If you feel rushed you're allowing the stick to rush you. Simply say, "not ready yet" or something like that and they'll pull them away.

I think this is a problem I have. So I really don't know what to expect (pace etc...) at some place where I have never played at. Seriously though, aren't sticks supposed to know that 4-5 rolls a minute is WAY TOO FAST even without the player telling them. Just sit down and imagine ... shoot ... look up and hear what the stick calls out... then magically the dice are right back in front of you... you shoot again... and the process repeats and repeats... I'm actually quite surprised that after all these years craps has been around that PEOPLE in general don't just lose it and yell at the stick. This really makes people nervous. I am a young man (not even 30) and I really do get nervous. It's also because you have to make sure your math is right... make sure the payouts are correct etc... if you have place bets/any bets. So has anyone ever experienced being nervous with the stick pushing it? What did you say to them to try to slow it down etc...?

If you're the shooter, you don't have to say anything. The stick will push the dice in front of you and you'll pick them up when you are ready to shoot. If anyone in the crew makes any comment about picking up the pace, just say that you're not ready. That's it, and you won't get any flack... and if you do, just ignore it and shoot whn you're ready. It's really not a big deal.

Quote: TheNightfly

If you're the shooter, you don't have to say anything. The stick will push the dice in front of you and you'll pick them up when you are ready to shoot. If anyone in the crew makes any comment about picking up the pace, just say that you're not ready. That's it, and you won't get any flack... and if you do, just ignore it and shoot whn you're ready. It's really not a big deal.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure if I am supposed to tell the stick directly by saying something like "can you slow it down." Or I was maybe thinking about telling the dealer closest to me and having him tell the stick. I'm just not sure what to do. I probably wouldn't have problems playing at a local place. It's just this weird feeling I have when playing somewhere else. This is especially awkward in places like Nevada where they try to rush in as many rolls as possible. I don't know if "rushing" is considered the standard rate in Nevada. I know I've said it like a million times but the pace is in fact insane. The dice just keeps going out even at a full table. You don't have that time in between rolls to make your bets sometimes and it's hard to see where the dice is. I've been having a lot of negative thoughts as of late about craps.

What i like to do when i think the table is moving to fast or i find that there is too much disruption at the table is i push the dice back to the stick man. allow what commotion going in is finished or when i had my breather to look around see what bets i have what i wanna keep, what i want to take down or add too.

Remember this is your money on the table, you cant worry about what other people bet. You as a shooter cant be responsible for their bets and losses. Accept the fact you cant control the outcome of the next roll but you can control the pace in which you shoot.

For the most part even when i am on a table by myself i have never found the dealers rushing me to shoot.

But i do find when there are alot of players on the table the game moves too slow.

If you are playing slower than the rest of the table wants to play, then you need to speed up your play a bit. However, I am betting that is not the case, and especially when you are the only player on the table! When you are the only player, PLAY AT YOUR PACE. When the stick pushes the dice right back to you, and you are still thinking about a bet you might want to make, just ignore the dice. When you are ready, pick them up and throw them. Now, if there are other players at the table, you need to respect their right to have a reasonably paced game, but when you are by yourself, you can pace the game. Engage the dealers, or the boxman, or the stickman. Talk about the weather, about the skirt that just walked by, or any other subject.
There are only a couple of hard rules you need to know for craps.

Only use 1 hand when you pick up the dice.
Never pull the dice back behind the rail.
Both of these are controls to ensure you are not switching in loaded dice.

Everything else I consider to be suggestions. I like to pick out dice to throw that are showing me 5 when they push the dice to me. IF I don't have 2 fives, I pick up all 5 dice and roll them against the near wall. This takes 2 secs. and most places never say a word. However, one place the stick ALWAYS complains when I do that. The usual comment is, "No private rolls, sir". By then I have my 2 fives, so who cares. :-) Next time the dice come by, if there is no five, I pick them all up and roll against the wall. "I said, No private rolls, sir." I pick up my two fives and will look them in the eye, grin, and say, "nothing private about it sir, everyone here could see the dice."
The point here is, don't let them get in your head. I have fun, I make bets for the dealers, but I have little things I like to do, that don't interfere with the game, or with other players. The stick can complain every time, I could not care less. I've never been asked to leave a table because they have had to repeatedly tell me I could not do something. After a while they will usually find someone else to mess with.

Bottom line, it has been said before, It is your money, you should be ENJOYING your time playing the game. After all, the most likely outcome is you are giving your money to the casino, so you should be getting some enjoyment from this, or you should re-examine why you are playing in the first place.