Dave019222
• Posts: 1
Joined: Dec 19, 2019
December 19th, 2019 at 12:09:43 AM permalink
I've read often here that each reel in the slot is controlled by random generation. My question is, is it the same random generator regardless of the denomination selected, or are there different generators set with different odds for each available denomination?
charliepatrick
• Posts: 2972
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
December 19th, 2019 at 3:43:27 AM permalink
I don't work in the industry so don't know for sure how their programs are written. However technically one would have a subroutine that can create random numbers from 0 to 1. Whatever used the caller multiplies the value by, say, the number of logical slots on the reel (technically there might be some jiggling if one wanted exact probabilities to be the same, and sometimes the logical slot numbers get converted to slot numbers on the visual reel if there's weighting of certain symbols).

For instance if I were progamming craps I would use something like
firstdie = FLOOR(6*randomnumber()+1);
seconddie = FLOOR(6*randomnumber()+1);
thisroll=firstdie+seconddie;
Techncally this isn't perfect as there are 2^32 (or 2^64 etc.) possible random numbers and that isn't exactly divisible by 6, so some die rolls are very slightly more likely than others. But for practical reasons it isn't worth worrying about.

It would be upto the program to determine how to vary the odds, for instance by paying less for a feature for a lower House Edge or, where applicable e.g. UK pubs, adding compensating logic to prevent multiple large wins.

I believe there are rules in some places that the RNG has to be called continuously, presumably as a background task, so the result for when the spin happens cannot be easily guessed.
sabre
• Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
December 19th, 2019 at 6:29:32 AM permalink
Quote: Dave019222

I've read often here that each reel in the slot is controlled by random generation. My question is, is it the same random generator regardless of the denomination selected, or are there different generators set with different odds for each available denomination?

Your real question is can the odds of each symbol appearing be different for different denominations. In theory they can. In practice, I don't know if it's common for different denominations to have different reel mappings.
billryan
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Joined: Nov 2, 2009
December 19th, 2019 at 7:18:56 AM permalink
I'm not sure if this is applicable to your exact question, but on some machines some symbols don't win at lower wagers but do at higher.
One machine I play has betting levels of 45, 90 and 135. At 45 coins, only certain symbols win. Line up three gold 7s betting minimum and you get nothing. Same results with a max bet wins . So the payout for max coins is much better than minimum, even though it's all controlled by a single generator.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
DRich
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Joined: Jul 6, 2012
December 19th, 2019 at 9:07:45 AM permalink
Quote: Dave019222

I've read often here that each reel in the slot is controlled by random generation. My question is, is it the same random generator regardless of the denomination selected, or are there different generators set with different odds for each available denomination?

Yes it is.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
DRich
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Joined: Jul 6, 2012
December 19th, 2019 at 9:09:19 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

Your real question is can the odds of each symbol appearing be different for different denominations. In theory they can. In practice, I don't know if it's common for different denominations to have different reel mappings.

Many machines have different reel strips depeding on the wager. It is very common.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
December 19th, 2019 at 10:03:33 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Many machines have different reel strips depeding on the wager. It is very common.

I'm asking rather than researching because you might immediately know the answer, and if you do, thank you in advance!

Isn't there something in Nevada law that states that there is a maximum permitted difference in return percentage, on a specific machine, when switching from one bet/denomination to the other? I seem to remember reading something to that effect, but don't specifically recall it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DRich
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December 19th, 2019 at 10:27:09 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I'm asking rather than researching because you might immediately know the answer, and if you do, thank you in advance!

Isn't there something in Nevada law that states that there is a maximum permitted difference in return percentage, on a specific machine, when switching from one bet/denomination to the other? I seem to remember reading something to that effect, but don't specifically recall it.

I don't know of a rule specifically against it but the Gaming Enforcement requires casinos to handle the audit and reporting differently if the spread is over 4%.

Slot Performance – Additional Records for Multi-Game and/or Multi-Denomination Slot
Machines and 4% Spread Paytable Slot Machines that Communicate Coin-in Amount by Paytable
to a TS3 OSMS
106.The TS3 OSMS reads and records the coin-in amount by paytable and as needed by wager type for 4% spread paytables.
The TS3 OSMS is utilized to complete and document the results of the following procedures (including the theoretical
hold percentage reflected in the slot analysis report) for those slot machines connected and communicating to the TS3
OSMS:
a. Weekly record the total coin-in meter by slot machine.
b. Quarterly record the coin-in meters for each paytable, the coin-in meter for each paytable by denomination when the
paytable has a different theoretical hold percentage for each denomination and the coin-in meters for each wager
type for 4% spread paytables.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
December 19th, 2019 at 10:59:52 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I don't know of a rule specifically against it but the Gaming Enforcement requires casinos to handle the audit and reporting differently if the spread is over 4%.

Slot Performance – Additional Records for Multi-Game and/or Multi-Denomination Slot
Machines and 4% Spread Paytable Slot Machines that Communicate Coin-in Amount by Paytable
to a TS3 OSMS
106.The TS3 OSMS reads and records the coin-in amount by paytable and as needed by wager type for 4% spread paytables.
The TS3 OSMS is utilized to complete and document the results of the following procedures (including the theoretical
hold percentage reflected in the slot analysis report) for those slot machines connected and communicating to the TS3
OSMS:
a. Weekly record the total coin-in meter by slot machine.
b. Quarterly record the coin-in meters for each paytable, the coin-in meter for each paytable by denomination when the
paytable has a different theoretical hold percentage for each denomination and the coin-in meters for each wager
type for 4% spread paytables.

Thanks! That must have been what was referenced, but I misunderstood the implications of it.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Ayecarumba
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Joined: Nov 17, 2009
December 19th, 2019 at 11:37:17 AM permalink
Is there any effective difference between a RNG for each reel, and a RNG for each machine? In the former, I would expect the machine to read and test for winning combinations after each RNG spits out a figure (which I assume correspond to a landing position on each reel); while in the latter, the program checks the single RNG first, then determines the combination to display on the reels by checking a table containing every possible combination of reels weighted to provide the desired return, and its' corresponding RNG figure). The single RNG is probably faster and more reliable, but in terms of player experience, I don't think anyone notices.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
DRich
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December 19th, 2019 at 11:40:40 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Is there any effective difference between a RNG for each reel, and a RNG for each machine? In the former, I would expect the machine to read and test for winning combinations after each RNG spits out a figure (which I assume correspond to a landing position on each reel); while in the latter, the program checks the single RNG first, then determines the combination to display on the reels by checking a table containing every possible combination of reels weighted to provide the desired return, and its' corresponding RNG figure). The single RNG is probably faster and more reliable, but in terms of player experience, I don't think anyone notices.

No difference. The RNG really doesn't do any checks it just returns a number. You ask for a number between a range and it gives you one.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Zcore13