how do u keep from getting mad at the dealers for their bad advice and suggestions?

its a shame none of u get to read my blog anymore except for Mickey the Legend, but i did what i needed to do to avoid drama. by making it private and its really nice playing up here in Blackhawk CO outside of vegas where no one seems to know of my blog, who I am, or have any preconceived ideas about either me, or how i play when i sit down.

i guess its why im winning, my $12500 i left reno with is at 15,500. but im still having poor results at BJ and for the life of me i cant figure out why. only about 3 out of every 100 blackjack professionals would have these poor results over the long run. ive won about 5000 at poker, and lost about 1200 on blackjack since coming here.

these are the best Blackjack games ive ever seen, at least for a $5 shoe player who cant afford to bet over $100 maximum anyway, and u can bet up to 3 spots of $100, in one casino u can even bet 7 spots.

at most of the casinos the cut card is 85-90% of the way down on my 6 deck shoes and everywhere pays 3-2. now will else will u find these games? and at the right time of the early morning u can even play HU or with no more than 1 other player.

but how do the dealers expect to get tipped when they brag about making 80-90k per year while in the box to another player who was considering becoming a dealer? when u consider most dont make more than 25k per year as their income at lower paying jobs.

and the sheer pressure or reminder every hand to bet the side bet when its such a sucker bet and is the only way the casino can make a profit, for theyre sure not winning off the regular game. the dealers do everything they can to make u feel bad for not betting it plus they keep encouraging other to join the table knowing it will make it harder for u to win if they do. and then they deal people their double downs face down a lot of the time even without the person asking, which is major antisocial because it makes it harder for me to know the correct play if i dont see which card they got. plus the horrendous advice always begging people to take even money no matter if the count is minus 15.

Many dealers don't know much about the games they deal.
They often parrot what they've heard from others. Everyone knows insurance is bad. No one knows why and few know the exceptions. They are not at liberty to skip the step of asking for insurance though.

Dealers want to give good advice and have their customers win.... it means bigger tips for them.

If in fact dealers say something that is totally and completely wrong, they are either stupid or don't like you or both.

Its your money you play as you like.

Just if your math is as bad as mine, let the play continue at a fast enough pace that other players don't mutter threats.

And remember, for many dealers the count is "52 cards per deck". That's all they know.

and its not only the dealers, its the other players. id give anything to be able to find one good counter in blackhawk and just play BJ when he and he alone is sitting there instead of all the fish. ONLY in poker do u benefit by having idiots at your table.

after making this post, i walked up the street to switch hotels and the hotels here are far more generous than vegas in allowing extremely early check ins til noon the following day, instead of noon that day. some as early as 430am.

so i walked into the casino across the street where i knew the shoe would be mostly empty. i ended up winning $80 but it was like pulling teeth with lots of swings. at one point i was stuck over $250. i was up more once too, but on a few key hands, some asian guy had sat with a couple of $5 chips only and right after he came in he started winning every bet and i lost. was i glad when he left about 15 minutes later.

should i sat out? how can i do this when the running count had just hit plus 12, with 3 decks left to go? i dont even feel like im supposed to decrease the bet even. but how can i just lose simply because hes coming in? he asked me if i mind, and ive gotten in trouble in other casinos for being honest, so i just pled the 5th amendment. good news was when he left i was only down about 100 from the previous 150 or so id been up and the count was still plus 7 with 2 decks left of the 6. and eventually i won $80.

i seriously wish people would comment so i could see how others deal with this type of stress. its a damned lie how people sitting in wont affect anything over the long run. regardless if they play good or bad, u want them coming in when its negative and out when its positive so u get more hands in before the shuffle to yourself. same way with HOW they play the hand. u want them standing on everything when its positive, never eating up cards, and hitting everything when its negative to eat up the cards.

im pretty sure the reason most of u dont have to deal with this type of BS (not counting the fact most of u have tons of money and never had a bankroll as low as $15k in your life but always kept it much higher) is the fact u only play at higher limit tables instead of the $5 tables, so u dont worry about them getting too full. and maybe the quality of the players is better so they have enough sense not to bet the side bet, or tip the dealers the $2.50 chips. (if people would quit tipping them, the dealers wouldnt be pressuring the casinos into stocking them, and the casino would still use $1s and halves.)

i used to use the 50c pieces to tip with but even this is too much, it will eat up your entire edge.

but why would u or I ever bet more than we have to on a negative count when the deck favors the house? either sit out or bet $5, playing at a $25 table and betting so much on bad counts just feels SOO DUMB. anyone willing to give an honest answer?

i get the fact its the only way to get comps, but u lose so much doing it.

Your ramblings betray the fact that you aren't an advantage player.

Quote: sabre

Your ramblings betray the fact that you aren't an advantage player.

I don't know about that.

Given his condition, and assuming he has no other source of income(I don't know if his condition makes him eligible for SSI disability) considering the length of time he has been doing it and surviving, I would have to say he is an advantage player if you include his poker as well.

Okay, Honorary Advantage Player then. Most casinos wouldn't let my shadow fall on their high limit room. Those at the low end of the bankroll have to pay attention because we don't always have staying power to make up for early losses.

Hi sevencard, I think I've seen you post here prior. In a HELPING and KIND way after reading your posts I'd really invite you to learn a bit more about blackjack, especially focusing on the math part of the game. From your posts there are a plethora of things it appears you either don't understand, or you don't fully understand. I have 3 articles in the Articles section of this site about A-Z blackjack, and I'd definitely invite you to give them a read and then a re-read. There's a lot of things in there that will answer some of your questions here... as well as I'll address several of them now too. Again, all of my responses are in trying to HELP you understand the game better, so please don't take any of them the wrong way =).

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

Quote: sevencard2003

these are the best Blackjack games ive ever seen, at least for a $5 shoe player who cant afford to bet over $100 maximum anyway, and u can bet up to 3 spots of $100, in one casino u can even bet 7 spots.

The best blackjack games still come with variance... what's your typical spread at these games? $5 to 3x$100?

Quote: sevencard2003

...plus they keep encouraging other to join the table knowing it will make it harder for u to win if they do...

If someone else joins the table, how does this make it harder for you to count/win? (answer: it shouldn't/doesn't).

Quote: sevencard2003

and then they deal people their double downs face down a lot of the time even without the person asking, which is major antisocial because it makes it harder for me to know the correct play if i dont see which card they got.

Face down double downs are fairly common. If you can't handle them in your counting game you should avoid games like this and continue to practice. Whenever that happens you just ignore the card, treating it as an unseen card. Then, when the hand is over and they flip them up, you add them to your count. Face down double downs are very, very easy to incorporate into a counting game and shouldn't hinder your ability to play whatsoever.

Quote: sevencard2003

and its not only the dealers, its the other players. id give anything to be able to find one good counter in blackhawk and just play BJ when he and he alone is sitting there instead of all the fish. ONLY in poker do u benefit by having idiots at your table.

The other players at a blackjack table have ABSOLUTELY ZERO EFFECT ON YOU in the long run. There's quite the famous quote I'm sure you've heard... "There are other players at the table?" The only effect you need to worry about is a full table playing less hands per hour. Playing decision/outcome wise other players do not have ANY EFFECT on your EV in the long run. This is a very simple and CRUCIAL concept that every counter should understand.

Quote: sevencard2003

...i ended up winning $80 but it was like pulling teeth with lots of swings. at one point i was stuck over $250. i was up more once too, but on a few key hands, some asian guy had sat with a couple of $5 chips only and right after he came in he started winning every bet and i lost. was i glad when he left about 15 minutes later.

So a couple things here. In any given session you're going to be up hundreds, down hundreds, and who knows where the dust will settle. Until you've reached N0 your bankroll could be positive or negative... and that's all fine and dandy and in line with the natural variance of the game. If you want to be a successful counter I'd invite you to look a bit more in to N0 and understanding variance a bit better in the game. Any one session could yield just about any result and that would be perfectly mathematically normal. I talk about this in more detail in my articles here on this very site (in the Articles section).

Quote: sevencard2003

should i sat out? how can i do this when the running count had just hit plus 12, with 3 decks left to go? i dont even feel like im supposed to decrease the bet even. but how can i just lose simply because hes coming in?

Again, this shouldn't matter AT ALL to you. You should simply play the game you've SIM'd out, with the predetermined spread you have, and you should not care about another player coming to the table at all. Again: THEIR PLAYING DECISIONS HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOU IN THE LONG RUN.

Quote: sevencard2003

...i seriously wish people would comment so i could see how others deal with this type of stress. its a damned lie how people sitting in wont affect anything over the long run. regardless if they play good or bad, u want them coming in when its negative and out when its positive so u get more hands in before the shuffle to yourself. same way with HOW they play the hand. u want them standing on everything when its positive, never eating up cards, and hitting everything when its negative to eat up the cards.

This is a BIG disconnect you apparently have. It's quite simple to prove they have no effect too... Let's say you're sitting middle field playing, the shoe gets hot, and some ploppy comes and sits in 3rd base. You're dealt a 20, stay, and the ploppy has 15 v dealer 6... he motions to hit. HOW does this hurt your odds? Do you know what the next card is? What if the next card is a 5 which would save you from the dealer 21? What if the next card is 10 which would bust the dealer? The point is YOU DON'T KNOW what the next card is. Him hitting 15v6 is a horrible EV move FOR HIM, and it doesn't affect your hand in any way, shape, or form, in the long run. We don't know what the next card is. Everyone always remembers when a ploppy hurts them with bad play, but always conveniently seems to forget when the ploppy saves the table with terrible play. It balances out, 100%.

Quote: sevencard2003

im pretty sure the reason most of u dont have to deal with this type of BS (not counting the fact most of u have tons of money and never had a bankroll as low as $15k in your life but always kept it much higher) is the fact u only play at higher limit tables instead of the $5 tables, so u dont worry about them getting too full. and maybe the quality of the players is better so they have enough sense not to bet the side bet, or tip the dealers the $2.50 chips. (if people would quit tipping them, the dealers wouldnt be pressuring the casinos into stocking them, and the casino would still use $1s and halves.)

lol... when I started I had a $1,000 bankroll and my session win goal was $500. I played the $5 tables (with a more proper bankroll) for years, and with my best buddy "Bruce" who played them with me for years. We grinded tirelessly at these tables, and we were IN THE RED FOR 300 HOURS until the math finally came to right itself. We talked about this on the Gambling With An Edge podcast you can catch on the GWAE site, or youtube, etc. Your thoughts here are mostly wrong. The level of play does NOT get better at the higher limit tables. The only change is that it's easier to find a more empty game to get more hands per hour, but other than that, it's pretty much the exact same. If anything, I'd argue that the attitudes of players at the higher limit tables are WORSE because you get more rich arrogant "table captains" that try to tell you how to play your hand and berate you if you don't play how they tell you to play.

Quote: sevencard2003

...but why would u or I ever bet more than we have to on a negative count when the deck favors the house? either sit out or bet $5, playing at a $25 table and betting so much on bad counts just feels SOO DUMB. anyone willing to give an honest answer?

Sure... they're called UNITS, not $5 and $25. If your bankroll lets you have units to play a $5 table, then you're spreading 1-X at a $5 table. If my bankroll allows for me to have units to play a $25 table, then I'm spreading 1-X at a $25 table. Does a $5 bet have less negative EV than a $25 bet (at an even count)? Sure... but when you spread $5-$50 and I spread $25-$250, I'm earning a lot more EV than you because my jumps are $25 and yours are only $5... I'm earning 5x as much as you with each of my jumps, so it's all relative (and in fact you'll earn a lot more EV at the $25 table). Obviously one should always bet min, or sit out in negative counts, baring special situations which are rare. Again, this is something you're stressing over, when in reality you should have a game plan and just simply stick to it, if you're going to try to make money playing blackjack. You have a predetermined spread, and that should be that. SIM it, understand the math, believe in it, and then just go do it without further worry. BELIEVE in the math.

Quote: sevencard2003

...i get the fact its the only way to get comps, but u lose so much doing it.

Again, hideously incorrect. See example above.

i went back and won $57 more, and now im going to sleep. puts me back to 15,600. if u counted only poker and nothing else, my cell phone records show ive won over $20,000 since the first of 2018. which i think is quite good. too bad other games have knocked that way down.

i would be very surprised if theres even 1 good blackjack player in the denver area besides myself. i think i could do much better if i could ever be part of a team and instead of supplying the money id only need to supply others with the count.

Quote: sevencard2003

...i would be very surprised if theres even 1 good blackjack player in the denver area besides myself. i think i could do much better if i could ever be part of a team and instead of supplying the money id only need to supply others with the count.

1) being part of a team is beneficial for all because it can help mask spreading. Also, it reduces the variance. Lastly, it helps you reach N0 faster if you have more players playing more hands.

2) I would NEVER get on a team with ANYONE that didn't have a financial stake (the same as mine I'd hope) in the game. You'd be quite hard pressed to join up with someone else, who doesn't even know your counting ability, and to get them to "free roll" you for any amount. If you didn't put money in to the team bankroll, you'd probably just get paid like $5-$10 per hour and not get a cut of the win.

3) If someone were to read this thread, they more than likely wouldn't want to team up because you definitely have a lot more to understand about the game, especially from a mathematics approach. Always keep learning as blackjack is an interesting game that always has something more to teach.

Quote: FleaStiff

Many dealers don't know much about the games they deal.
They often parrot what they've heard from others. Everyone knows insurance is bad. No one knows why and few know the exceptions. They are not at liberty to skip the step of asking for insurance though.

During my try at dealer school way back I asked the instructor about how many dealers know or play the games they deal. I expected that dealing would attract people who know and like the games. He said "few."

I file a dealer not playing at all under "Don't get high on your own supply." I never got not knowing the game at all. But then you have to consider the diversity of people who try to be dealers. Some are young folks looking for something paying decent, some are older folks who need a career switch where age does not matter. But in the end the room was a minority of people who ate, slept, and breathed gaming and the rest who need a gig that pays well with minimal training.

Since I cannot play BJ on the Strip anymore if I ever get back I will be unable to determine if being in a better place means dealers who better know the game. But I doubt much that better properties mean dealers knowing the game better and more means they just grind out more hands per hour and have a better personality than those left behind in various grind joints.

i was doing $5-300 because some people try to make it work spreading only 1-6 units or 1-12 and that to me isnt enough for a shoe game, especially if u can get away with more. i guess its why i have such high variance. but this is why i lost $1800 once in blackhawk and $2100 once, though im only down about $900 in blackhawk at blackjack overall now and yet up over 5000 on poker.

with a roll of 15k give or take a thousand or two, i should never bet more than 150 or maybe slightly over it, like 2 spots of 80 or 3 spots of 60. follow the rule of betting 1% max.

the main reason i hate other players is at first u have only 1 other player, then others want to join too, and then i have to leave because i dont like to bet the same number of spots every hand. i sure aint betting 2 when its negative, and it will keep me from going back and forth from one spot to multiple spots.

theres actually been times im happy another player sat when its highly negative and i needed an excuse to sit out.

a problem for me, with the $15 shoes in some of the more expensive casinos here in colorado, is i dont have the roll to make the spread like i would if betting 5-150 15-150 is much harder to beat since im only betting 1-10 units. i would think u would understand this.

the other players often complain when i change the number of spots and i dont care because if it causes them to quit, its good for me. and just like u say them sitting down wont affect me, me going to 2 spots wont effect them.

another thing u failed to consider is if there were less horrible players and people willing to bet the side bet, the house would offer better games to attract business.

$5-$300 on a $15k bankroll... assuming a decent game (S17, LS, DAS, 6D)... let's do some math. Figuring your exact spread with 3 hands isn't easy, but I'm sure I'm in the "ball park" as I did the spread kind of how I would spread that game with 3 hands. (TC +4 = 3x$100).

I'd love to know how many hands you've played thus far? If I had to blind wild guess off what you've said, maybe a few thousand?

AvgBet = $27
OriginalSD = 1.15 * 27 = ~$31

EV(1,000 hands) = (1000*27)*(.01) = $270
SD(1,000 hands) = Sqrt(1000) * 31 = $980... 3SD = $2940...

So after 1,000 hands you could be down over $2.5k, and that would be completely within the realm of possible for the math.

EV(5,000 hands) = (5000*27)*(.01) = $1350
SD(5,000 hands) = Sqrt(5000) * 31 = $2192... 3SD = $6576...

So after 5,000 hands you could be down over $5k, and that would be completely within the realm of possible for the math.

EV(10,000 hands) = (10,000*27)*(.01) = $2700
SD(10,000 hands) = Sqrt(10,000) * 31 = $3100... 3SD = $9300...

So after 10,000 hands you could be down over $6k, and that would be completely within the realm of possible for the math.

EV(25,000 hands) = (25,000*27)*(.01) = $6750
SD(25,000 hands) = Sqrt(25,000) * 31 = $4901... 3SD = $14,704...

So after 25,000 hands you could be down over $8k, and that would be completely within the realm of possible for the math.

EV(50,000 hands) = (50,000*27)*(.01) = $13,500
SD(50,000 hands) = Sqrt(50,000) * 31 = $6931... 3SD = $20,795...

So after 50,000 hands you could be down over $7k, and that would be completely within the realm of possible for the math.

EV(100,000 hands) = (100,000*27)*(.01) = $27,000
SD(100,000 hands) = Sqrt(100,000) * 31 = $9803... 3SD = $29,409...

So after 100,000 hands you could be down over $2k, and that would be completely within the realm of possible for the math.


...see how it's leveling out? Your N0 (3SD) for your wild spread is probably about 110,000 hands.

im in the middle of reading article 2 of the 3 u wanted me to read and theres a mistake in article 2. it says on the first hand of a new shoe a $30 bet has an expected loss of $5.30. this is definitely not true, for thats far higher than 10% and we all know that blackjack doesnt return 89% and below.

actually its hit on soft 17, very few games allow standing on it anymore, but at least here in colorado u still get paid 3-2. no surrender though. the rules may not be the best but isnt the penetration the main thing? also there seems to be no heat here.

Quote: sevencard2003

i was doing $5-300 because some people try to make it work spreading only 1-6 units or 1-12 and that to me isnt enough for a shoe game, especially if u can get away with more. i guess its why i have such high variance.

The bigger spread will definitely lead to more variance. Also, 3x$100 does not mean your bet at that level is $300. There is co-variance involved. I'd recommend Wongs book Professional Blackjack where he talks about this. 2 hands of $100 is really more of an average bet at that level of $150 (75% of the combined total ... 100+100 = 200, 75% of 200 is 150). There's a lot more for you to fully understand, especially inviting the extra variance with such an aggressive spread (which I'm all for, so long as you understand the variance and possibilities).

Quote: sevencard2003

...a problem for me, with the $15 shoes in some of the more expensive casinos here in colorado, is i dont have the roll to make the spread like i would if betting 5-150 15-150 is much harder to beat since im only betting 1-10 units. i would think u would understand this.

Which is not why I'm suggesting or recommending you play a $15 or $25 table, I was simply answering your question about "why" would anyone play the $25 table... remember your question: "playing at a $25 table and betting so much on bad counts just feels SOO DUMB. anyone willing to give an honest answer?" Re:Answer = it's not dumb, it makes more money... if you have the bankroll to play a higher game.

Quote: sevencard2003

...another thing u failed to consider is if there were less horrible players and people willing to bet the side bet, the house would offer better games to attract business.

Nope, not really. The average blackjack player has absolutely gotten better over the years, yet the games are getting worse and worse. This completely contradicts your statement. As more and more information gets around, and as more people play the game and learn, the average player will get better. Given the average player is still garbage (in my opinion) the average player today is still WORLDS better than the average player 30 years ago... yet the games are WORSE and WORSE (6:5 blackjack, etc). So apparently you failed to consider something. I'm trying to help you. Don't be so hasty to be defensive.

the 15k is actually both my lifes savings and the same money ive been living off of the last 20 years without ever going broke, and until it gets higher i dont want to be down 7-8k which is like 50% of it ever. so ive basically cut my risk back to never going over 200 divided up among either 2 or 3 spots instead of 300.

im assuming though i could also run hot and be up a few thousand more than i should too, in which case id be much less likely to run into trouble even if i ran cold after first getting up 5000.

this is why poker is better. sure im limiting myself to only winning about 20 per hour but at very little risk. i win about 30-40k per year at poker and i would never go broke off a starting roll of 15k in it. but i do wish to switch to BJ, because some good BJ players win far far more than 20 per hour once their roll grows enough

in your opinion how many hours should it take to double 15k?

Quote: sevencard2003

...in your opinion how many hours should it take to double 15k?

Look above where EV = $15k... baring variance, it should take around 60,000 hands. Of course there is variance, so it could be sooner, or later.

Thus if you're getting 100 hands per hour on average (which I think is HIGH but you're claiming to have quicker games) that would take you around 600 hours of play, which levels off to your ~$25/hour EV.

Quote: sevencard2003

im in the middle of reading article 2 of the 3 u wanted me to read and theres a mistake in article 2. it says on the first hand of a new shoe a $30 bet has an expected loss of $5.30. this is definitely not true, for thats far higher than 10% and we all know that blackjack doesnt return 89% and below.

I've re-read that paragraph 3 times now and you're absolutely correct. Some kind of typo/calculator error... $10 at an "average" game (.5% HE) would yield only $0.50 in expected loss. A $30 bet would yield only $1.50 in expected loss. Not sure how that got by.

It sounds like you're actually doing very well overall. I've grown so accustomed to ignoring the advice from anyone in a casino that it doesn't even register. If you're not at that point yet, just remember that the dealers are only doing their job the best they can. It's their job to offer all the bets available and to be inviting to other customers. There's no reason to be mad at someone for that -- just as they don't get mad at you for doing your job.

With other players it might be harder. It's good to remember that the only reason they're allowed to make their decision to join your table is because you also allowed to make your own decisions on how to play the game. If their playing is changing the odds against you, walk away. If it isn't changing the odds, stay. As a blackjack player, it's up to you to make that determination

I agree that it does seem dumb to play at the $25 when it means you have to bet that much even in negative counts, but there are some major advantages. You can bet $400 - $500 or more in good counts without drawing as much heat. You can lay heads-up with the dealer much more. And you get much better comps -- rooms, meals, free plat. Just have to accept that playing at the $2 - $5 tables means there will be other players and you have to learn how to deal with them.

Any team play in Colorado is probably either loosely based or just passing through. In Las Vegas there are definitely some teams that have people work with them without putting up any money. Haven't been a part of that scene in a few years, but could look into it for you if you ever visit.

Tips are given to dealers for the service they provide, so tip them whatever you think their service is worth to you.

Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck.

Quote: sevencard2003

and then they deal people their double downs face down a lot of the time even without the person asking, which is major antisocial because it makes it harder for me to know the correct play if i dont see which card they got.

A lot of people want theirs face down..some will say "always double face down" which a good dealer will remember to do so every time. Its good customer service. So you could have not been there when it happened.

Also, there is no rule that says you are not allowed to ask to see the face down card.

Quote: sevencard2003

and the sheer pressure or reminder every hand to bet the side bet when its such a sucker bet and is the only way the casino can make a profit, for theyre sure not winning off the regular game.

Same thing as above, some people play it every hand. Its good customer service to remind them about it if they didnt have it up. Never once has Mgmt said to pressure people into making side bets.

In craps, the stickman will say "anyone want hardways/ce/horn/hop etc." at the beginning of the roll..only for the purpose of reminding people about it being time to make the bets if those people are consistently doing do.

I try and learn the math of every game I know how to deal. But, I am also one who does not care how other people play. My rule of thumb is if they make an -EV call, I will hesitate and ask them again. If their mind doesn't change, I do what they ask, Its my job. I pay no attention to the people yelling at the player, its not their money.

Now, if someone asks me what to do, i will gladly tell them and if they want to know more about why, i will try my best to teach them about it.