Can I Make A Living Thru Gambling?

<edited>

I am not a slot AP guy. I know less about slot machines than I know about women. Well maybe not. :/

I am a blackjack AP guy who does a limited amount of 'supplemental' VP machine AP play.

But here's the thing I wonder about. With blackjack we are forced to try to fly below the casinos radar. And really there is less of that these days. If the casino wants to know who you are....they know who you are. So it's really about playing within tolerance levels more than playing undetected.

Now machine players, slot or VP aren't immune to this situation. While, they don't deal with a dealer or pit people, there are things like handpays that are going to draw attention. And I assume players playing at levels significant enough to talk about the earnings potential being mentioned are playing levels enough to draw handpays.

And even handpays aside, in this day and age of technology (and this works against us more and more almost every day), if you are winning consistently, I would think casinos are aware of you. At some point you winning won't be tolerated and you will be forced to play the same type of cat and mouse games as blackjack players, constantly on the go moving between casinos with a large rotation of casinos necessary to make any substantial money.

Weigh in Machine pros...am I wrong?

I just dismiss all of what mamat claims, it's
far easier than trying to separate the real
from the wildly exaggerated.

<edited>

Quote: mamat

It's not a bad idea to spend 10-25% of your earnings on random gambling so casinos will tolerate you.

In your made up fantasyland casino,
maybe. In the real world it's a waste
of time and money.

mamat

We have been giving mamat a hard time.

It was fun chatting.

I hope you know what you are doing.

Quote: mamat

Any decent casino is aware of 99% of slot APs ... from the low-level bus people to the $100-1,000/spin high-end ones.
After the first $4,000-$10,000 handpay, you have probably been Googled.

Casinos are definitely tracking you - Theo Win, Actual Win, ADT/ADW, PADT/PADW, Hours, Cash Drop.
Even you play without a card, surveillance may have followed you around with 6 staffers as a project to see what/how you play.

1) Camouflage.
a) from casinos
b) from APs
c) from players
2) Don't take too much from each casino.

Most slot APs who think they are hot shit, have a disbelief that there are people who operate at a higher level than they do.
This is useful. You can blend in with the majority of break-even APs ... and the APs who make minimum wage ($20,000-50,000/yr).

Different casinos have varying tolerances for levels of wins.
You can be asked to leave, formally been 86'ed, or asked to stay away from certain machines.

For example, some casinos are only tolerant of UX vultures if they play something else.
At Red Rock in 2010, I was surrounded by 6 security & staff and warned not to "fish" on UX machines.
Playing 10 credits was ok. I learned from that and started playing camouflage.

At another casinos, the VP of slots and a director came up to me and said something like
"we know what you are doing, and we are ok with it. You search UX, but its ok you play other stuff."

Types of machines:
1) small - only need $100-200-300 bankroll. May only get 1-2 handpays/yr. Can make $100K-150K/yr.
2) medium - $50-1,000 must-hits - $10,000 recommended bankroll. Will get some hand pays. Can make $75K-100K/yr
3) large - $2,500-$100,000 must-hits. Will get tons of handpays & staff will be all over you. Instantly noticed.
Unknown how much you can make. This is where people play at higher levels than me & I don't personally know what the upper limits are...
When playing a 10K must-hit, once I got 20 hand pays for $50K, and still lost -$8,000.
If you play heavy, you will rocket into a casino's top 100 players...

There are reasons why APs will deliberately do stupid things; e.g. gamble & lose $10K at baccarat. play really dumb slots heads up.
It's not a bad idea to spend 10-25% of your earnings on random gambling so casinos will tolerate you.

Just curious if you are an ap and playing a ten k must hit maybe my brain cells are off tonight but in hitting 50k in hand pays how is it possible that you had positive ev on the machine to start . Did you start playing it at 9100?

Quote: MaxPen

No wonder casinos are having financial troubles.

OMG! I cant stop laughing and it hurts.

I haven't seen you posting for a while I think I know why. I can't wait to hear about it.
I'll share to.

Quote: mamat

Bob Dancer (Video Poker guy) had a good story on his website.
A lady asked him to teach her how to become a professional video poker player.
He asked her if she had saved money from work.
She said no.
Bob Dancer said he couldn't teach her.

Bob Dancer just posted today that on this upcoming Tuesdays radio show/podcast or whatever it is now, he and Richard Munchkin will be discussing the following topics-

1. If you are or want to be a successful gambler, is moving to Las Vegas a good idea?

2. If you’re smart enough to make it as a professional gambler, can you likely make more money working in a “regular” job?

I thought some of you might be interested as these issues have been discussed throughout this thread. Short time lurker here, just found these forums last week. I really like the discussions .

Quote: mamat

Say you make $20-40/hr (after expenses), and work 3,000 hrs/yr, that's $60,000-120,000 in 1 year.
It's not that difficult to make 6 figures.

Completely tax-free? How do you stay ahead of the IRS?

Nothing wrong with having expenses. What else do you spend your income on? The more you make the more you spend. (Actually, I think it should be the other way around).

Duplicate, WOV must be broken.

Quote: djatc

. Even the crap I have to deal with that sucks.

Am I really that bad?

Quote: Exoter175

Let me ask you something. Why do you think there are pyramids at the end of a craps table? Why do you think the casino "rules" are for you to hit the back wall?

You can come to my house and I'll take the pyramids off the back wall, Hell I'll even consider letting you shoot into a sand box at the end of the table..

Quote: DailyDouble

Bob Dancer just posted today that on this upcoming Tuesdays radio show/podcast or whatever it is now, he and Richard Munchkin will be discussing the following topics-

1. If you are or want to be a successful gambler, is moving to Las Vegas a good idea?

2. If you’re smart enough to make it as a professional gambler, can you likely make more money working in a “regular” job?

I thought some of you might be interested as these issues have been discussed throughout this thread. Short time lurker here, just found these forums last week. I really like the discussions .

DailyD,

Welcome to the forums, and thanks for the heads' up on the next show. Perhaps they should make it a call-in format so some of us can express our thoughts on the subject...

Quote: rudeboyoi

Just read through this whole thread. I'd say having a good memory is more important than having a high IQ although the two are closely correlated anyways.

Don't you dare start this here.

Have a wonderful fun night rudeboyoi and I really mean that.

Quote: Rigondeaux

You probably just don't know how fortunate you are. My old, dead end job was full of people who went to USC, UCLA and UCSD. A handful went to Cal, Yale, Harvard, etc. All making $12-$20/hr in LA.

Being smart is hardly a guarantee of a six figure income. Smart, and well connected. Smart, with great social skills. Smart, with a particularly marketable area of interest/degree. That's a lot closer.

It reminds me a bit of some Wall Street guy who asked Phil Ivy why he hadn't taken that route and made more money. As if you just show up on Wall Street and demonstrate intelligence somehow and get a corner office. I'm sure that's how Chelsea Clinton became a hedge fund manager. ; )

I'll grant you this. If you could chose a path, say for your kid, a regular six figure job would be preferable. But even many of those come with lots of stress and demands, or having to do things that are morally wrong. You're extra lucky to have a six figure job that you like and that isn't demanding. But those don't grow on trees. I envy someone who has had a life that would lead them to believe that they do.

And, gambling can serve as an alternative route for people who don't fit the standard mold. This is true of me in several ways (though, i don't make six figures). One is that I have irregular sleep patterns. There is just no way I can work 9-5 without being tired most of the time. If I can work any time I want, for as many or few hours as I want, that problem is solved, or at least manageable.

I've found that most full time gamblers do have some sort of limitation. They didn't have access to an education, lack personal connections, have some sort of mental health issue or lack of social skills, or have just bad luck in other areas of life. You know, the people who land six figure jobs are a pretty low percentage of the people who could perform the duties. If you don't get in the circle within a few years of college, it's all over.

So, gambling fulltime is not a perfect life, but if we all had vast potential and fantastic results, I guess we would all be Tiger Woods or Bill Gates.

Rigondeaux it's always a rare treat when you post.

Quote: kewlj

where is axel when we need him?

20 pages came out of nowhere.

I'm just taking it all in.

I have a few things to say but I don't know where to start. I'm not sure I want to rock the boat. Mamat is scaring me I seen a few of his posts and he most certainly has some knowledge, I'm worried an argument may encourage him to give out to much AP information just to prove a point.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I never see happy well dressed slot players. Until I find one, I'll pass.

I think I'm usually a snappy dresser but I guess that's a matter of opinion, I'm certainly no slob. Can't you see my Avatar?

But normally AP's are not concerned with how they dress.

If you're talking about low level hustlers well that's a different story.

PS I know a few GAP'S who tend to dress well. But don't they all? I'm so confused, because a certain AP here drives a Miata and I cant claim he's dressed above average.

Oh boy I can hear KJ's keyboard firing up.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm worried an argument may encourage him to give out to much AP information just to prove a point.

You guys crack me up. Yeah, don't want those
nickel and dime opportunities to come out
in the open. You might lose a comped
breakfast at Binions, there goes your +EV
for the day..

Quote: EvenBob

You guys crack me up. Yeah, don't want those
nickel and dime opportunities to come out
in the open. You might lose a comped
breakfast at Binions, there goes your +EV
for the day..

Bob I have no clue what he plays or who he is, but in another thread post (I hope he deleted) had some fairly good and accurate information)

Quote: Wizardofnothing

. Prolly becAuse too many people wrote books about stuff

OMG You dirty B. You beat me to it, I'm laughing again.

Ok. Question.

I was thinking of writing a post with example months of daily win/loss.

Of what $15K/yr, $50K/yr, $100K/yr, $200K/yr look like in real life.
Is this too much info? Is anyone interested?

No details of locations or games.

Slot AP cash flows look very different from BJ AP cash flows.
BJ only has 50-60% winning days. Depending on strategy, slots have 75-99% winning days.

Quote: AxelWolf

But normally AP's are not concerned with how they dress.

If you're talking about low level hustlers well that's a different story.

In 2010, a chinese team of men/women was 86'ed from Venetian.

Then they changed their dress (when working other casinos).
Women, instead of dressing like geeks, started wearing nice outfits, pearls, fancy jewelry.

Instead of waiting next to the bank of machines they wanted to play at the Bellagio,
they started waiting about 50 ft away behind tables and a few rows of machines, occasional sending scouts over.

----
One guy who grew up blue-collar is always dressing really snappy.
I don't think he realizes that rich kids often don't tuck in their dress shirts when off work...

Question: What do people actually want to hear in this forum?

No sense talking about stuff people don't want to hear...

I've learned about some games from this forum (i.e. helped to have the B... slot picture earlier this year),
and would like to contribute something back without outing too much.

-----
I'm assuming casino executives read everything here
...but they already watch all the AP action (even the small stuff).

Casino surveillance and slot department heads are not as stupid as some people think they are.

I haven't posted anything that I think is still unknown to casino staff.

Quote: mamat

Question: What do people actually want to hear in this forum?

No sense talking about stuff people don't want to hear...

I've learned about some games from this forum (i.e. helped to have the B... slot picture earlier this year),
and would like to contribute something back without outing too much.

-----
I'm assuming casino executives read everything here
...but they already watch all the AP action (even the small stuff).

Casino surveillance and slot department heads are not as stupid as some people think they are.

I haven't posted anything that I think is still unknown to casino staff.

I'm sorry but I have found casino staff and surveillance to be incredibly stupid and easy to fool.

Now once they are onto you that is a different story, although if surveillance was onto me, I could fool them in a heartbeat so they would have no idea I was still hitting them.

They sweat the small stuff when they notice but often, too often, they don't notice.

I've gone to war with casinos hitting them even when I knew they were right on my ass and kept hitting them for months.

Quote: EvenBob

C'mon, 6000 a year? That leaves 7.5 hours
a day to eat, bathe, run errands, and oh
yeah, SLEEP. Nobody does that.

Are you sure about that? I know a few of them who would make you question your belief there lol.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I never see happy well dressed slot players. Until I find one, I'll pass.

You haven't seen me on a working weekend :P

Quote: MrV

Mamat, you describe a hellish existence.

The thing is, Mamat is describing a very real existence for low end/low level "Machine hustlers" and vultures. Trust me, I know a lot of them and network with many of them out of necessity. Some of these guys I've also incorporated into my team a time or two.

In fact, most everything Mamat is saying is very real, very true, except for the winnings parts. I've been doing this for the better part of a decade, and I've yet to meet a single Machine AP come close to those numbers, and I'm in rarefied air territory myself and I barely make a drop in the bucket of those claimed numbers.

Quote: kewlj

I am not a slot AP guy. I know less about slot machines than I know about women. Well maybe not. :/

I am a blackjack AP guy who does a limited amount of 'supplemental' VP machine AP play.

But here's the thing I wonder about. With blackjack we are forced to try to fly below the casinos radar. And really there is less of that these days. If the casino wants to know who you are....they know who you are. So it's really about playing within tolerance levels more than playing undetected.

Now machine players, slot or VP aren't immune to this situation. While, they don't deal with a dealer or pit people, there are things like handpays that are going to draw attention. And I assume players playing at levels significant enough to talk about the earnings potential being mentioned are playing levels enough to draw handpays.

And even handpays aside, in this day and age of technology (and this works against us more and more almost every day), if you are winning consistently, I would think casinos are aware of you. At some point you winning won't be tolerated and you will be forced to play the same type of cat and mouse games as blackjack players, constantly on the go moving between casinos with a large rotation of casinos necessary to make any substantial money.

Weigh in Machine pros...am I wrong?

You are absolutely correct for the most part KJ. We fly under the radar with fractions of the heat that you would, especially in your unique situation. That being said, when we do draw heat, its bad, its ugly, we get banned for life, generally the IRS gets involved thanks to a nice tipoff from the casino, and guys might get investigated for cheat/fraud/laundering, or what have you. I've heard countless stories, I can't verify any of them other than my own personal story, where I've received a trespass as a result of a dispute between myself and a security guard in regards to a player having an issue with my presence.

The big, huge, stinky, glaring difference between APBJ heat and Machine AP heat, is that our heat comes from pissed off or weary regular players, not from suspicions of wins and so forth. The casino can't technically kick you out without some form of justified reason, and "winning too much" is a pretty poor excuse, and they know that. There's been several settlements between Machine AP's and casinos over this matter, because even though they might have the "right" to toss you out because they are a private establishment, depending on the parameters of the situation, there could be potential for lawsuits. Thus, the general "fallback" for the casino is to wait for you to have an incident with another player, "fighting over progressives" generally, and then they go after you hard. In my case, where I was trespassed, I was gone after with the full book for how little of an issue there truly was, and I get the impression that this was a warning shot from them to me. Now keep in mind, I don't cause trouble, want trouble, or look for it, but the very nature of my field of work will often invite it, and that's the drawback here. Where you might be ducking pit bosses, I've got to look out for that snooty high roller UX player who might have seen me pick off her machine in the past and doesn't like it, so she tells her host and then up/down the foodchain it goes.

All of that said, though, I can only speak from personal experience in that 5-8k per month range and say that in all honesty, hand pays are rare for me in the grand scheme of things. I rarely get to go after something that will result in a hand pay, and when I do its generally in a state or city I've never been and on my first or second "visit" to their casino, for all they know. Even rarer are my surprise VUX handpays. While I do generate about 1-2 every month, the bulk of my wins are tied up in the $50-$250 variety on machines, and $1-$15 variety on VUX.

Quote: teddys

Completely tax-free? How do you stay ahead of the IRS?

Nothing wrong with having expenses. What else do you spend your income on? The more you make the more you spend. (Actually, I think it should be the other way around).

Not tax free at all, those of us that actually do this for a living will claim it all to avoid the hassle, and most if not all of us have a CPA on speed dial that we are close with an confide in.

In fact, my CPA/Tax Man/Money Manager/Broker/Golfing Buddy I MET in the casino during an advantage play, and we've become the best of friends ever since.

Quote: darkoz

I'm sorry but I have found casino staff and surveillance to be incredibly stupid and easy to fool.

Now once they are onto you that is a different story, although if surveillance was onto me, I could fool them in a heartbeat so they would have no idea I was still hitting them.

They sweat the small stuff when they notice but often, too often, they don't notice.

I've gone to war with casinos hitting them even when I knew they were right on my ass and kept hitting them for months.

Lol.

<duplicate>

Quote: Exoter175

I've been doing this for the better part of a decade, ...and I'm in rarefied air territory myself

Every time I've improved my AP play on different games, I've been exposed to gambits & strategies I had no clue about before.
Seems like the tactics at each level are so different.

I love "Exoter175"s description of unicorns.

I occasionally see people I don't know swooping in with way bigger bankrolls than mine,
and playing in some way that I don't grasp...

It's been that way for 20+ years of gambling (only 6 yrs on slots).
Every year, same, there's always people playing at levels above mine.

I am above average IQ.

Do you have to have an exceptional IQ to beat slots?

What chance do I have to learn to make $10/hr within a couple years?

Quote: jjjoooggg

I am above average IQ.

Do you have to have an exceptional IQ to beat slots?

What chance do I have to learn to make $10/hr within a couple years?

Have you considered training as an electrician? They make pretty good money, and it's quite a bit more stable income than gambling.

Quote: Dieter

Have you considered training as an electrician? They make pretty good money, and it's quite a bit more stable income than gambling.

Your question, has made me think again.

Yes, I thought about Electrician. I was studying to be a journeyman. I would rather be an independent operator truck driver. I guess, I enjoy being alone. Or a part time cop. But I am too busy taking care of my elderly parents and their failing restaurant business with legal issues from code enforcement, 2 lawsuits/year, theft. It would be difficult having a job in another company.

I have experience dealing with electricians, AC, plumbing, large service companies through the restaurant. There is a lot of fraud in that industry.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I am above average IQ.

Do you have to have an exceptional IQ to beat slots?

What chance do I have to learn to make $10/hr within a couple years?

Honestly that only helps, you could be extremely smart and still fail.

Ask yourself this.... does having a high IQ have anything to do with being an artist, rock/pop star or actor? I'm sure it helps but it doesn't guarantee anything. I suck at math and i don't think I cold pass any hard written tests, but I guarantee you... one way or another i'm getting off that dam island first or being voted off last.

The odds of someone waking up one day and saying I want to gamble for a living and then being successful is probably 1 in a million.

So you are saying there are only 300 people in the country that turn. A profit gambling each year ?

Quote: jjjoooggg

I guess, I enjoy being alone.

well, that fits as far as being a gambler goes.

being an AP? seems like working alone may not be best

Quote:

Do you have to have an exceptional IQ to beat slots?

Good grief, you should rarely if ever have to raise a hand to a slut, at least once she's been properly broken in.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I guess, I enjoy being alone.

Quote: odiousgambit

well, that fits as far as being a gambler goes.

being an AP? seems like working alone may not be best

Actually that trait of being a loner is a trait I see in many AP's, especially in the world of blackjack AP's, which is what I am most familiar with. Even Blackjack teams are often made up of mostly players that have that 'loner' trait.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

So you are saying there are only 300 people in the country that turn. A profit gambling each year ?

Not what he said.

Well at odds of a million to one and 300 million people in the country that would equate to that

Quote: kewlj

Actually that trait of being a loner is a trait I see in many AP's, especially in the world of blackjack AP's, which is what I am most familiar with. Even Blackjack teams are often made up of mostly players that have that 'loner' trait.

Absolutely. Unibomber loner types. I've never
met anybody from a forum and never will.
No +EV in it at all.

Quote: EvenBob

Absolutely. Unibomber loner types. I've never
met anybody from a forum and never will.
No +EV in it at all.

I've made friends for life. +EV for me.

Same here. A couple dozen at this point, I think.

This is one of the great and terrible things about the Internet. Like minded people from far places can connect, discuss, and meet if they choose to. Great in the development of ideas and friendship, in sharing interests and learning from each other. Terrible in that same connection enabling disparate elements with evil intent.

Just a thought, not meant as a derail.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Well at odds of a million to one and 300 million people in the country that would equate to that

Making a living is different than turning a profit.

Getting out $1 more than you put in is a profit, but getting by on that is kinda slim.

Quote: SOOPOO

I've made friends for life. +EV for me.

I'm perfectly happy with virtual friendships.
My best friend right now is an Iowa farmer
I met on another forum about 4 years ago.
We're close to the same age, have the same
interests and opinions, we email many times
a day. We see no reason to ever meet, why
would we. One on one is a totally different
thing, it's way over rated.

Quote: EvenBob

...One on one is a totally different
thing, it's way over rated.

My exact thoughts on marriage.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

My exact thoughts on marriage.

Marriage is frightening, I see my wife
as little as possible. If absence makes
the heart grow fonder, then closeness
breeds hostility.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Great in the development of ideas and friendship, in sharing interests and learning from each other. Terrible in that same connection enabling disparate elements with evil intent.

The internet is a proved loser. Destroys memory function, and cognitive ability. I recall well-educated persons joking about such while looking ahead, back in my university days in the early 80's.

I guess we all start from different jumping-off points, but one might as well presume that the more posts, etc, the more damage. Certainly, don't expect any real improvement in well-being.

Quote: EvenBob

Marriage is frightening, I see my wife
as little as possible. If absence makes
the heart grow fonder, then closeness
breeds hostility.

There is absolutely zero reason for a man that makes a middle class or higher income to ever get married without a pre-nuptual agreement.

Quote: TheGrimReaper13

but one might as well presume that the more posts, etc, the more damage. .

lol! Yeah, stop posting, you go first. Doom
and gloom, the internet will be our downfall.
Been hearing that for 20 years. They said it
about TV too. It was destroying peoples
lives. They said cars and electric lights would
destroy civilization.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Quote: mason2386

There is absolutely zero reason for a man that makes a middle class or higher income to ever get married without a pre-nuptual agreement.

What if she makes 10 times as much as you do, or 20 times?
I'm not sure you thought this all the way thru.
And even if you did, which is possible, it's still a rather negative view on the institution of marriage.