Can I Make A Living Thru Gambling?
Quote: MrV"
I don't look down on you, I just don't understand why you do it, given all the other opportunities which life affords us.
The sad thing is there are damned few gambler's who regularly pull down six figure incomes, but a lot of flameouts..
You probably just don't know how fortunate you are. My old, dead end job was full of people who went to USC, UCLA and UCSD. A handful went to Cal, Yale, Harvard, etc. All making $12-$20/hr in LA.
Being smart is hardly a guarantee of a six figure income. Smart, and well connected. Smart, with great social skills. Smart, with a particularly marketable area of interest/degree. That's a lot closer.
It reminds me a bit of some Wall Street guy who asked Phil Ivy why he hadn't taken that route and made more money. As if you just show up on Wall Street and demonstrate intelligence somehow and get a corner office. I'm sure that's how Chelsea Clinton became a hedge fund manager. ; )
I'll grant you this. If you could chose a path, say for your kid, a regular six figure job would be preferable. But even many of those come with lots of stress and demands, or having to do things that are morally wrong. You're extra lucky to have a six figure job that you like and that isn't demanding. But those don't grow on trees. I envy someone who has had a life that would lead them to believe that they do.
And, gambling can serve as an alternative route for people who don't fit the standard mold. This is true of me in several ways (though, i don't make six figures). One is that I have irregular sleep patterns. There is just no way I can work 9-5 without being tired most of the time. If I can work any time I want, for as many or few hours as I want, that problem is solved, or at least manageable.
I've found that most full time gamblers do have some sort of limitation. They didn't have access to an education, lack personal connections, have some sort of mental health issue or lack of social skills, or have just bad luck in other areas of life. You know, the people who land six figure jobs are a pretty low percentage of the people who could perform the duties. If you don't get in the circle within a few years of college, it's all over.
So, gambling fulltime is not a perfect life, but if we all had vast potential and fantastic results, I guess we would all be Tiger Woods or Bill Gates.
Quote: MrV
Other than that, they provide no benefit to society that I can see,
PEW did a survey and found the US
thinks the military, teachers and
doctors contribute the most to
society. At the very bottom of the
list is guess who? Lawyers! 82%
say lawyers contribute little or
nothing. Next up the rung is
executives, and after that it's
clergy.
Lots of jobs contribute less than nothing.
Hookers break up marriages. Drug
dealers ruin lives. Pro thieves, fences,
pro welfare collectors. At least AP's
aren't hurting anybody.
Quote: MrV
An assembly line worker makes a product.
A plumber fixes a leaky pipe.
A doctor mends a broken leg.
What does a professional gambler do that benefits others?
I agree, to a point. This is one reason I hate it when people don't tip. Keeping people employed is pretty much the only positive thing you can do at your job as a gambler.
I think successful APs and similarly fortunate people can balance things out quickly with some volunteer work or charitable contributions.
But it could be much worse. A lot of people work for arms dealers or the DEA, for example and profit from actively creating tremendous suffering in the world.
Someone like KewlJ can volunteer and go from being neutral to positive pretty easily. There are a lot of jobs, especially in the six figure range, where you'd have to spend the second half of your life deactivating landmines and building orphanages to do that.
Quote: MrVI never claimed that paying taxes is of no benefit.
I claimed that society receives no direct benefit from the gambling activity itself (other than keeping casino employees busier than they might otherwise be).
An assembly line worker makes a product.
A plumber fixes a leaky pipe.
A doctor mends a broken leg.
What does a professional gambler do that benefits others?
Now compare that to your example of an insurance salesman: he provides a clear benefit: an insurance policy.
IRS auditors benefit the herd by making certain we pay our fair share.
It has nothing to do with whether people pay taxes on their income, it has everything to do with the VALUE to society of the fruit of their labor.
I'm not saying full-time AP's are bad people, or that what they do is illegal.
You skipped out on a few examples, and with rose tinted visions painted a prettier picture of their reality, while simultaneously avoiding several of my questions, and getting back to this silly belief that I must add value to society with the fruit of my labor. I don't. Its not my job, and while I DOOOOOOOOO add value to society by paying taxes, rather than living on government assistance, hiding my wins, and not paying taxes, it isn't my soul purpose in life to provide value through means of employment, to my community. I didn't realize this was a contract at birth that I must live up to.
In fact, your whole theory is wrong, twisted, and otherwise fruitless.
In a world where everyone's hourly pay for what they do is inequal, where someone might work less hours but make more, or work a slightly more "vital to the public" job, and make less than a slightly less "vital to the public" job, you simply cannot state that someone is more or less "adding value" to their community in some holier than thou approach and attitude, when almost all of us are driven in the same direction with the same motives. Make enough money to survive. That's the bottom line. Make enough money to survive. Don't give me some tripe bullshit about "adding to community". My taxes do that, and arguing against that is asinine.
Quote: Exoter175Don't give me some tripe bullshit about "adding to community". My taxes do that, and arguing against that is asinine.
Look at it this way. Mr V is a lawyer. How
many lawyer jokes are there about them
being less than perfect, and how many AP jokes
are there on the same subject. I rest my
case.
I like you, I hope you stick around. And
I hardly like anybody..
Quote: MrVWhat does a professional gambler do that benefits others?
I see professional gamblers to be in the entertainment industry.
So, you know, just as valuable to society as movie stars or NFL players.
Quote: DieterI see professional gamblers to be in the entertainment industry.
So, you know, just as valuable to society as movie stars or NFL players.
OK, so I didn't say it right, what's new?
There are an almost infinite number of ways to contribute to the world during your little visit here. AP in the casinos is nowhere near the worst of them. Make a mark, do some good, make those around you smile when they are having a bad day. Lend a hand on occasion. Have some fun along the way. All good.
Cheers! 2F
And the Catholic church considered banking to be so immoral and against society they made it illegal.
As for me, prior to AP'ing I was homeless and getting a welfare "stipend" and food stamps.
Now, I not only support myself, I have employees who work for me. I put money and food in the mouths of at least ten and sometimes as many as thirty people a month by having them be part of my particular plays.
I'd say I help the community pretty well.
Quote: darkozNow, I not only support myself, I have employees who work for me. I put money and food in the mouths of at least ten and sometimes as many as thirty people a month by having them be part of my particular plays.
^ This.
Quote: jwilliams"I put money and food in the mouths of at least ten and sometimes as many as thirty people a month by having them be part of my particular plays." Don't you think that this is too much? I mean.. seriously, you're talking about them as if they're your slaves.
Interesting interpretation.
Quote: RSInteresting interpretation.
Horrible interpretation as I was the one who said that.
Some of my plays involved people being available for just five minutes and that would pay them $100. IF they were travelling a longer distance to help me out, I reimbursed them for their time by paying up to $300.
Putting food on their plate and money in their pocket, yes!
Slave labor? You tell me.
Quote: darkozHorrible interpretation as I was the one who said that.
Some of my plays involved people being available for just five minutes and that would pay them $100. IF they were travelling a longer distance to help me out, I reimbursed them for their time by paying up to $300.
Putting food on their plate and money in their pocket, yes!
Slave labor? You tell me.
Can I be your slave?
Quote: HoodstarCan I be your slave?
lol!
Quote: teddysHealth insurance is still pricey for the self-employed but not AS pricey as it was before Obamacare.
I pay $282/month for a silver plan from the best insurer in the state. $2k deductible. That's expensive, sure, but it's not going to cripple me. That said, I hardly ever meet the deductible, so I'm really subsidizing everyone else. I guess that's what 'Bama wanted. (Socialism - gasp!) But I wish I could just take out a high deductible catastrophic plan and not pay a penalty.
That's they way all health insurance works, everywhere, even in Canada where we don't pay visibly for health insurance. The actual health costs per capita in my province is about $3,500 (very little deductible). 41% of my provincial taxes go to health care, which worked out to $6,500 last year. In the meantime, I think I have consumed in total about $2,000 in health care costs over the past 10 years. I accept that it is a form of insurance and that there is always a probability that I could have a heart attack, stroke, get hit by a car, have a meteorite hit my house, etc. When I get into my 50s I am almost positive that my take from the system will exceed the give that I am doing.
Quote: jwilliams"I put money and food in the mouths of at least ten and sometimes as many as thirty people a month by having them be part of my particular plays." Don't you think that this is too much? I mean.. seriously, you're talking about them as if they're your slaves.
Actually, it sounds like he's a well connected guy with many resources who knows when he needs and extra hand to get things done, and will often reach out and make people well compensated for their time, and often, rather menial tasks.
In some areas of the US, I'll pay people just to WATCH a machine for me, and to get on it if it becomes available, and call me. You get those two things done, boom here's a reward.
Hell, I often compensate strangers for random information on certain specific slot machines. I've openly said here that I'd reward people for their help on specific information on my "list" of machines.
1) Ex-cons who have difficulty getting a regular job.
2) Can start with $0 bankroll (although easier with $20-100).
My estimate is ~2% of slot APs are making minimum wage ($10/hr) after expenses.
If you can make $20-40/hr, you are in a rarified <1% of machine APs.
-> There are many who make $20-40/hr, but expenses drive them below minimum wage.
Some people are gifted. One guy in his second year is already in 6 figures.
Slot APs could make $300K-$500K/month in the past, but no longer.
$400K-$500K/yr is about the best most can do these days (a few 7-figure people)
- barring discovery of rare software/hardware glitches
- without breaking the law, scamming people, etc...
- and doing 5,000-6,000 hrs/yr. (2.5X-3X the normal 2,000 hr work-year).
I personally know <5 people who have made $100+/hr in 2015 as a slot AP.
Most slot APs I know who make high hourly rates ($20-50+/hr):
1) retired or working a regular job (even part-time they make more than almost all full-time slot APs)
2) are concerned about "having a life", and try not to spend too many hours in casinos
Many other APs consider themselves "successful" when making less money ($2,000-$4,000/month, $10-20/hr):
1) Want supplemental income from their regular job, or pension, or disability, etc...
2) Have a lot of fun hanging out with friends in casinos
Yes but what is your IQ and do you believe in DI?Quote: mamat
Sorry, that was a joke that you might not have gotten if you haven't be on the forum regularly.
Quote: mamat
- and doing 5,000-6,000 hrs/yr. (2.5X-3X the normal 2,000 hr work-year).
C'mon, 6000 a year? That leaves 7.5 hours
a day to eat, bathe, run errands, and oh
yeah, SLEEP. Nobody does that.
Quote: mamat
$400K-$500K/yr is about the best most can do these days (a few 7-figure people)
Really?
Some yay-hoos are actually pulling in a million or more profit per year from AP slot play?
How do you know that to be true?
Quote: EvenBobC'mon, 6000 a year? That leaves 7.5 hours
a day to eat, bathe, run errands, and oh
yeah, SLEEP. Nobody does that.
When I used to work for a living, I sometimes did 120 hrs/wk for months at a stretch.
At one casino, there's a guy who sleeps in the parking lot (no hotel) & goes home to visit family once a week.
Wife is ok with it, since he makes more than she does at her job.
Sometimes he brings his son, and they both hang out at the casino. Estimate: 5,000-6,000 hrs/yr.
Another casino, guy takes 9 am bus to casino, and stays until 8 pm or 10 pm most days.
Later on weekends. Almost never takes a day off. He's retired.
Estimate: 4,500-5,000 hrs/yr.
I've seen people do 72-96 hrs straight. Why?
1) They're broke...and can't afford a hotel room.
2) Playing a progressive (e.g. $5,000 betting 0.50-1.00).
Personally, I sometimes do 20-23 hr days for awhile.
Gamble about 9 months out of the year, and currently average 3,000 hrs/yr.
Quote: MrVReally?
Some yay-hoos are actually pulling in a million or more profit per year from AP slot play?
How do you know that to be true?
When I first started in 2009, I made less than minimum wage ($5/hr).
Next year I made $15/hr.
2013 was a bad year with so many machines disappearing,
but otherwise I've been improving each year as I learn more.
Currently I'm trying to break $100/hr, but it's hard.
Can't do it consistently every month.
This month currently $97/hr.
I can see possible improvements in my strategies,
and I see how people who play bigger than me operate.
One of the reasons I play is the challenge of learning how slots operate.
A lot more fun than BJ, with a way less "heat".
$1 million/yr is only $85,000/month, which is doable.
Helps if you play $25,000, $50,000, $100,000, & $150,000 progressives.
Around my current level, I have 10+ friends who make six figures.
At higher levels, I've seen people with pictures on their phones of multi-million dollar
slot jackpots. One guy showed me multiple 7 figure jackpots (WSOP guy).
Not a slot AP, but at Bellagio 2009, I watched a guy win $3 million on
Video Poker in one weekend. Dealt royal on triple play $100 TDB for $1.2 million.
In 2 hours on Friday, he made $2 million. Sunday he played 5 times for $200,000 each.
It made a hug dent in Bellagio's high limit profits for the month.
Game he played (TDB) was immediately downgraded.
Used to watch Terrence Watanabe bet $90,000-$180,000/hand at roulette at Caesars,
tossing $100 bills in the air.
... P.S. the big money is in poker. One of my friends probably made $50-100+ million.
His tournament cashes are $8+ million.
He's the one who taught me about real world blackjack grinding in the 1990s.
Some WSOP players make more on AP'ing slots at some of their casino visits
for poker tournaments.
Averaging 15-25% edge is possible on smaller budgets (In 2013, my yearly edge was 19%),
but the larger progressives are rarely available with 10+% edge.
Quote: jjjooogggI never see happy well dressed slot players. Until I find one, I'll pass.
I agree, none of this passes the smell test.
I don't care if you sleep in your car,
I'm not buying 120 hours a week for
a year.
Quote: EvenBobI agree, none of this passes the smell test.
I don't care if you sleep in your car,
I'm not buying 120 hours a week for
a year.
Most certainly does not pass the smell test. I say this as the same guy that just days ago (in another thread), was against the idea of putting a poster through the ringer as if he is on trial. But I am not opposed to some of that here. Lol.
Quote: WizardofnothingMost of the people in here that post are just making up numbers. I would never say what I make but the edges are there - I put in as little or as much time as I want I make my own schedule and travel over 150k miles a year and would not trade it for the world. Anyone that puts in the time and works for it can make 100 plus am hour given they are bankrolled properly - don't have any leaks and are willing to be a student as well
I agree. You can make a lot more than $100 an hour. I have done up to 2K an hour. Mamats claims for his own profit were reasonable ( he was attempting to crack $100.)
His claims fell apart for me when he said he knew so many people making six and seven figure incomes and even someone making fifty to a hundred million
Quote: WizardofnothingLmfao. That's hysterical. Unless he is friends with billy Walters - or possibly you could consider Doyle Brunson or Ivey maybe those are his three friends
I checked and Ivey's biggest purse I could find at Poker was $4 million. Mamat said someone he knew was making $8 million a purse. Something doesn't smell right.
But his own winning amounts were very realistic. To give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he has been misled as to winnings other people are claiming. As we all know on here, there are some who make ridiculous claims to show off. Perhaps he is just a victim of other people's boasts.
Wasn't Watanabe the fool that owned the Oriental Trading company and lost 100+ million at Caesars over a year period?
The strip is responsible for over 50% of Nevada gaming revenue and many of those properties profit far less than Mamats friend.
Why own the casino when all you have to do is AP. What a joke. Anyone want to buy a monkey?
Quote: darkozYeah, it has to be in jest. Claims of knowing AP's making fifty million a year? He knows at least ten people making seven figures. Perhaps he's attempting to make claims to elicit a response from AP's like KJ, Axel and myself.
10+ people making 6 figures.
7 figures is rare today.
Quote: mamat10+ people making 6 figures.
7 figures is rare today.
Well, okay, perhaps. There are a few AP moves that lucrative but I would be surprised if so many people were aware of them.
My experience with the casinos is once they have that many people hitting them for those amounts, the opportunity starts drying up.
Quote: darkozI checked and Ivey's biggest purse I could find at Poker was $4 million. Mamat said someone he knew was making $8 million a purse. Something doesn't smell right.
But his own winning amounts were very realistic. To give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he has been misled as to winnings other people are claiming. As we all know on here, there are some who make ridiculous claims to show off. Perhaps he is just a victim of other people's boasts.
$8 million+ was "lifetime cashes" (WSOP main event winner years ago)
People lie all the time about winning & losing.
A lot of losers brag about their big jackpots.
Many winners on the other hand...exaggerate the losses.
<edited>
You don't need fantastic situations to make $100,000/yr (after expenses).
1) Live on $10,000-20,000/yr
2) Make $110,000-120,000/yr before expenses
3) Say you are in the casinos 360 days/yr.
4) All you need is $300-340/day in EV.
5) Find enough plays with +5 EV, +10 EV, +50 EV ... to make +300-340 EV for the day.
-> It's not the quantity of plays (many people play too early). It's the total EV.
Example: Only vulturing UX and nothing else, there are a few locations in the US where you can make $40K-60K/yr just from UX.
+100-150/day EV over the long-term (not just weekends & holidays) is the best I know today.
Bankroll necessary to make $100K/yr is only $200-400.
You don't even need to play $50 must-hits...
Just UX and a few other low-budget games.
Here we go again.
They are broke? But they are winning?
Quote: mamatWhen I used to work for a living, I sometimes did 120 hrs/wk for months at a stretch.
At one casino, there's a guy who sleeps in the parking lot (no hotel) & goes home to visit family once a week.
Wife is ok with it, since he makes more than she does at her job.
Sometimes he brings his son, and they both hang out at the casino. Estimate: 5,000-6,000 hrs/yr.
Another casino, guy takes 9 am bus to casino, and stays until 8 pm or 10 pm most days.
Later on weekends. Almost never takes a day off. He's retired.
Estimate: 4,500-5,000 hrs/yr.
I've seen people do 72-96 hrs straight. Why?
1) They're broke...and can't afford a hotel room.
2) Playing a progressive (e.g. $5,000 betting 0.50-1.00).
Personally, I sometimes do 20-23 hr days for awhile.
Gamble about 9 months out of the year, and currently average 3,000 hrs/yr.
Quote: jjjooogggHold on, I think I've seen unkempt slot players.
Here we go again.
They are broke? But they are winning?
Some of them get really stinky after 48-72-96 hrs without a shower.
If they don't have 30 hotel days/month, some band together in teams of 2-3 so they have enough free rooms to cover the entire month.
Since they live in casinos, they are there 4 am, 10 am, 3 pm, etc...
...and yes, some have almost no life outside of gambling.
Some take off less than 1 day/month.
(P.S. These are NOT the highly profitable ones...)
Quote: MrVMamat, you describe a hellish existence.
Some of them really like it.
Can sleep anytime you want.
No alarm to go to work.
No boss.
Free food.
Free housing (in 3* and 4* hotels).
Free music.
Casinos pays your expenses.
Hang out with friends.
Adrenalin rush & happiness from winning (at least temporarily).
Beats the hell out of being in jail.
Most slot APs are what I might call "break-even gamblers".
They can't build a bankroll because their "cash management" skills are poor.
---
Bob Dancer (Video Poker guy) had a good story on his website.
A lady asked him to teach her how to become a professional video poker player.
He asked her if she had saved money from work.
She said no.
Bob Dancer said he couldn't teach her.
