Can I Make A Living Thru Gambling?
Quote: MrVThe casino obviously saw something about your throw that threw a red flag.
Probably thought you were cheating somehow.
With the dice in plain view, handled with one hand?
Come on now.........
Quote: Exoter175I work 5 days a week, 10-12 hours a day, and my net worth goes up EVERY day.
I also work five days a week, rarely more than eight hours a day, and earn six figures annually.
It's called "having a good job."
Beats spending a big chunk of your life in a one-dimensional, smoky casino.
It allows me to gamble occasionally, which is all I care to do.
Unlike you, I have more free time to do other things such as be with family, work on cars, watch DVD's and the like.
To each his own, but the life of a so-called professional gambler is not attractive to me and certainly does not pass any sane cost/benefit analysis.
Oh, no. There's self-taught MickeyCrimm still gracing the internet. You remember, Mike's hero, and resident poster boy for professional gambling at large. I'm sure Mike won't mind hearing some tidied-up tidbits from one of "our own". Absence makes the heart grow fonder.Quote: IbeatyouracesSorry, I'm not a teacher. You'll have to learn on your own.
From "our own" MickeyCrimm ,aka Singahkillah, at Alan Mendelson's forum...Quote: WizardFrom what I hear, I agree. Our own MickeyCrimm was doing quite well playing odd-ball stuff in Montana.
And...Quote: SingahkillahI've read Shackelford on video poker plays he has so called worked. Much to thin of an edge for an AP. Stuff like 100.24%. Real video poker AP's don't play anything close to that thin of an edge. 2% is about as thin as most real AP's will go. Shackelford has a weakness there. From his own mouth he is not very good at poker. But he has excellent sports betting plays. Although one bet has failed him these last several years-no safety in the Super Bowl.
On to Mickey's patented or decade regurgitated VP play in which no one ever seems at all interested...Quote: SingahkillahFrom what I've seen the Wiz will throw down on some pretty thing edge stuff. Much, much thinner than I would play. He just described a $1 ten play 8/5 Bonus Poker play he put down. The addons brought the game up to 100.24%. I'm just not gonna put my time and money in a spot like that. When would I expect to get a payday. You can run bad forever on such a thin edge. This part may surprise people but I have to say I agree with Rob, if he is referring to working thin edges like this.
Only in Montana? With nobody auditing those two particular machines several times a week as all the others.Quote: SingahkillahWhere was the casino mistake in this game? It was in the Natural Aces Full Hand. The game can be found on about 2000 machines. But the Natural Aces Full meter starts at $10 (20 for 1) or $15 (30 for 1). The first time I stumbed onto one where the meter started at $100 I knew it had to be a big advantage. This big lightbulb goes off in my head. If they made this mistake on this one machine they may have made it on others. So I went through all two thousand machines looking for the mistake. I found the mistake on two dozen machines. So I started running a route on them just taking so much money out of every machine. I also tracked the meters to see if I had any competition. And when I was on the play where there was more than one machine in a location I always observed whether anyone else was playing the game. The machines have a dozen video poker games on them and a dozen keno games. The players have a big selection. I never seen or suspected I had any competition. It's almost 8 years later and I'm down to 2 machines at one location.
If neither his stuff works, and Mickey's some kind of crazy person...
Okay, Singahkillah mortally threatened Rob, and Alan didn't like it one bit. (Alan cunningly draws out AP nonsense and lies over at "The Forum".)Quote: SingahkillahI love your ability, Rob to deflect. It's a great quality you have. I don't copy anyone from anybody. I'm my own asshole man. I don't need a punk like you. I would rather live my own life as I choose to live it than put up with a little bitch like you. This is your one time warning. The first time I see you I'm gonna put a bullet in your head.
Not to be out done, "our own" more- sober and reflective MickeyCrimm...Quote: AlanMendelsonI immediately called the Los Angeles Police Department. singahkillah has been permanently banned per the advice of the LAPD. I read them the post and they said it constitutes a criminal threat. Their advice also is for Rob Singer to go to his local police department and file a report.
Full circle, "our own" MickeyCrimm's impression of the new owners...Quote: SingahkillahAnd one more thing, boys. I don't give a rats ass about LAPD. In Montana Law words alone do not constitute assault.
Aah, the lifestyles of the world's dumbest crooks? Gotta love "our own" gambling buddies. Something to look forward to in life after all the regular bull garbage.Quote:4K[FourofaKind), I understand your delima. You know damn well that you and me speak our minds and damn the consequences. You also know that I have been suspended for two weeks off the WoV site. Times have changed of the WoV site. We used to be XXXXXXXXX by XXXXXX of the XXX. Now we are XXXXXXXXX by XXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXX, who XXXXXXX the XXXXXXXXX with no reason why. I Personally refuse to be crushed under the weight. Now it's a XXXXX between the XXXXXXXX gamblers and XXXXX XXXX XXX XXXX gamblers. And I guarantee you one thing, 4K, they can't XXXX XX XXX. So that means I'm going to throw down the XXXXXXXX mail to XXXXX XXXXXXXX.
Whem I get back to WoV, I going to XXXX XXX that XXX XXXXX, I'm mean XXX XXXX. Absolutely no one one the planet earth dictates terms to me. I dictate terms to them.
XX XXXX with XXXX.
Quote: MrVI also work five days a week, rarely more than eight hours a day, and earn six figures annually.
It's called "having a good job."
Beats spending most of your life in a one-dimensional, smoky casino.
It allows me to gamble occasionally, which is all I care to do.
Unlike you, I have more free time to do other things such as be with family, work on cars, watch DVD's and the like.
To each his own, but the life of a so-called professional gambler is not attractive to me and certainly does not pass any sane cost/benefit analysis.
That was a little "holier than thou" don't you think?
While I'm happy that you work 40 hours a week and get paid six figures annually, I work slightly more and get paid slightly less. I didn't need to rack up debt in order to do so. I'm also curious as to your occupation and your state of residence, since six figure jobs where I live are few and far between and are basically corporate executive level, or lawyer/doctor with 10+ years of experience.
At the end of the day, there's a tradeoff for everything, and while you certainly do likely make more than I do with the benefits associated with your job, I'm making a hell of a lot more money than my degree offers me in my region. I also have ZERO work stress, I have absolutely LOVELY encounters with my "coworkers" and job acquaintances, I get to socialize all day every day to some degree, and I never have to pay for groceries when the food is free! The commute really isn't all that bad, and I have plenty of time to watch sports while I'm working (totally awesome perk) and I'm otherwise paid to be there in the first place.
Did I mention that I thoroughly enjoy what I do?
Quote: mcallister3200A well capitalized AP with a versatile(and actually worthwhile aka not bottom feeding) skill set SHOULD be making 100k+ per year working 5 days per week including travel. This thread has taken a rather delusional, narcissistic turn.
Define "Bottom Feeding". And then define why you consider whatever it is to be "bottom feeding".
Of course there are always going to be exceptions to the rule.
"Holier than though?"
I'm an atheist.
Quote: EvenBobYet, it pretty much is. It's not a religion where belief is enough to make it true.
They're close, I'll grant you.
I wouldn't suggest anyone go and risk their life savings on it.
I'm not willing to discount the possibility that someone in the future won't come up with some technique to do it.
I'll keep quietly laughing to myself about the failures, however.
Quote: MrVMy point: Smart guys can make more money with a real job than they can earn playing games in a casino, generally speaking.
Of course there are always going to be exceptions to the rule.
"Holier than though?"
I'm an atheist.
I love that atheist remark, made me laugh.
I get your point MrV, and while that generally holds true, its a rare breed of individuals who can make "more" than their day jobs at a casino. Though I certainly have the intelligence to be a doctor or lawyer (all of my friends and family remark that I missed my calling as a lawyer), it was never my ambition to become one. My dreams and goals were in the automotive fields. I had a passion for cars, fixing them especially, and unfortunately, there really aren't any six figure automotive jobs on the service side, until you get to regional manager. In order to get there, you need 20 years of experience, with at least 10 within the company. Its not really a competitive "market" compared to what I'm currently doing. That isn't to say that what I was getting paid in my field wasn't "enough" to live by. I made plenty, but now I make more than plenty. I've fast tracked my retirement considerably. And that's my goal, my ambition. To make as much money as possible, so that I can invest it. Some people make money to spend on frivolous things, every penny I've earned since I've entered the job market, has gone towards costs of living, and my savings/investment/retirement. Raaaaaaaarely do I ever splurge on myself for anything, and usually its for a family event where I'll buy a bunch of steak and grill it up.
I hope it works for you.
What irks me is the handful of guys who talk about how great it is to be a "professional gambler," how they don't have to hold down a "real job."
Guys like that old fraud (and my first gambling guru, back when I was new to casino gambling) John Patrick.
We all need to keep our lives in balance, and for me anyway spending half of it in a casino would lead to an imbalanced existence.
Party on, Garth.
weekdays. Why is that, what changes on
the weekends.
Quote: MrVFollow your passion.
I hope it works for you.
What irks me is the handful of guys who talk about how great it is to be a "professional gambler," how they don't have to hold down a "real job."
Guys like that old fraud (and my first gambling guru, back when I was new to casino gambling) John Patrick.
We all need to keep our lives in balance, and for me anyway spending half of it in a casino would lead to an imbalanced existence.
Party on, Garth.
If you hear a guy talking about how "Great" it is to be a professional gambler, the likelihood is that they are lying about one or more things. Either they aren't truly a professional, or they are so delusional about what they do, that they convince themselves that they are winning and doing things right.
The true professionals know it is an absolute grind. That there will be tradeoffs, and that we wouldn't necessarily wish this "life" upon anybody. It can be very rough, it can be very volatile depending on your repertoire, and it can be very tiring. The worst part is usually in the beginning, when you're so amped and pumped up that you found a way to beat the casino, that you spend months at a time doing it and you eventually burn out. A lot of guys that I've seen (though they aren't truly a lot, just a higher percentage of the whole) tend to burn out within the first 2-3 months, and when they do, they generally go out with a bang, full title gambling, its ugly, very, very ugly. The worst part is that you can see it coming, but they can't, and when they realize it, its far too late to be able to mitigate the damage, and its baaaaaaad.
To do this, professionally, you have to build up quite the immune system, metaphorically speaking. You have to have thick skin, and you have to be mindful of what you're doing day in and day out, because it only takes one small slip up to damage yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, or financially, and those small slip up could be devastating for years.
A friend and "Co-worker" of mine recently passed away by his own doing, I never saw it coming, and our team never saw it coming. He was financially sound, had nearly a million dollars stashed away over decades of doing what I do. He was about as disciplined as they came, and one day he was just gone. Now, I don't know the complete story of why this happened as there was no note, and I surely couldn't tell you the psychology behind it because none of us knew what was going on inside of his head because he kept it buried deep within him and never showed us so much as a glance of unhappiness. What I do know, though, is that he was relentless. He never gave up, he never quit, and he never, ever, ever took time off. He worked himself to skin and bones doing this, and before any of us could tell something was wrong, he was gone.
Looking back, I remember having a discussion with him about taking time off, and how I found it necessary to take a couple days off per week like a "normal job" to keep myself rested, sane, happy, and motivated. I remember, now, the look in his eyes as I said that, as if the guy were trapped by his own routine and had no way to really gain control of it.
This is certainly not the life for everyone, and you have to be a certain sort of twisted, cynical individual to stomach some of it.
That's how I feel about AP. Even the crap I have to deal with that sucks, is better than being in an office all day making some other asshole rich.
Quote: EvenBobExo, you say weekends are way better than
weekdays. Why is that, what changes on
the weekends.
The people. If M-Thur there are 300 people playing a potential of 2000 machines for the 10 hours I am there, the likelihood is that I'll receive X or Y amount of plays per hour. If the rate at which people play them goes up, based on the number of people potentially playing, say 800-1000 people playing on weekends while I am there, then it stands to reason that I'll find and develop more plays at a corresponding rate or ratio with the number of people in the building.
From mere observance of how people play, this actually amplifies the effect from a simple ratio of 300/2000 to 800/2000, because there tend to be more people "bouncing around" on the weekend, than compared to the weekdays. There's plenty of people who come in, stick $20 in this machine, $20 in that machine on the weekends, and to a degree, that serves me very well. In some cases, all I need is for someone to spend a dollar or two on a machine to make it a +EV play, in some cases, I need them to spend 200+ on it to drive up the +EV to astounding numbers.
Its truly all relative to what I have available at any given casino at any one time.
Quote: Exoter175Define "Bottom Feeding". And then define why you consider whatever it is to be "bottom feeding".
I pretty much mean it strictly in terms of profitability(it was used while explaining what a well capitalized AP can make), plays that are on the lower end of profitability and aren't really scale able. In that context why is sort of objective and explained.
Quote: Exoter175The people.
Exactly. It's easy to see 3x the recreational players on a Saturday vs a Tuesday afternoon.
The upside is that there are more likely opportunities that they leave behind.
The downside is that there are more casual players in your way.
Quote: djatc"Do what you love and never work a day in your life"
That's how I feel about AP. Even the crap I have to deal with that sucks, is better than being in an office all day making some other asshole rich.
That is very true, though the reality is that you'll still "work" but you'll be working for yourself and making the money for yourself. I'm a firm believer in what most would call a 401g, and finances play a huuuuuuge part of everything that I do. Eventually I'll have enough set aside that what I do right now, becomes more of a pass time than a job for an income, and that's why I work as hard as I do, at what I do. Though I have a "never enough" attitude when it comes to money, it doesn't control me nearly as badly as some people I know. I wont' take an unnecessary risk with my money, and I put a lot of effort into managing what I have. Honestly, that's a big part of what we do, and many of the "new guys" overlook that. They think its a "get rich" gig, and honestly its anything but.
Quote: mcallister3200I pretty much mean it strictly in terms of profitability(it was used while explaining what a well capitalized AP can make), plays that are on the lower end of profitability and aren't really scale able. In that context why is sort of objective and explained.
Honestly, I find it a little derogatory in terms. As an AP, we must all be willing to subject ourselves to +EV, its what makes us money, after all. While I played a loooooooot of blackjack in my life, I'm not fool, I know there are ways to make the same amount of money with less heat if I find the right situation with the right variables. More importantly, the right location. There exist, places in this country that I will and have made more money VUXing, than I could make on any blackjack table in the area. Conversely, there exist many more places in this country that have table rules advantageous enough for me to not even look at machine plays or VUXing as an alternative.
Most people consider bottom feeding to be "VUXing", while the highbrow elite consider APBJ as the "crown jewel". In all honesty, I do all of it, its what makes me good at what I do. Being able to recognize your surroundings and location and to ascertain and approximate value of your time spent is crucial, and key. In other words, I'm not opposed to getting my hands dirty flipping through UX to make a buck, as long as I have enough action to sustain it. After all, the +EV is immensely higher with UX than anything APBJ has to offer, and there are dozens of machines with higher +EV than even some of the best hands in UX.
Some people look at it like "eww, bottom feeders", I look at it like "Why the F not?". Its all about perspective I suppose. Some people only enjoy playing APBJ, and for that, I won't begrudge you. That's your thing, your gig, and your life, do it how you want. For me, I'll take every opportunity to make a dollar that you give me, be it on UX, APBJ, or signing up for a club card.
Quote: DieterExactly. It's easy to see 3x the recreational players on a Saturday vs a Tuesday afternoon.
The upside is that there are more likely opportunities that they leave behind.
The downside is that there are more casual players in your way.
And in the end, we have to deal with both. In the end, I'll make more money on that saturday than on that tuesday for one simple reason (specific to UX), I need to see the play, I need to work it, and it needs to recreate itself. On a tuesday, if I only get 30-40 plays, I'm not going to make much. But if I get 300 plays on a saturday, I SHOULD make quite a bit. For me, the decisions come down to that on a machine to machine basis individually, and I make my "work" decisions on this. Some days I might be at X casino because they have A machine, some days I'll be at Y casino because they have B machine. Ultimately, I'm trying to put myself in the most advantageous position possible to make money, and the busier the casino, the more money I will make, time after time.
Quote: Exoter175Some days I might be at X casino because they have A machine, some days I'll be at Y casino because they have B machine.
And some days I'm at one place because the degens came in to run off their free play mailers yesterday (which means they're not sniping the UX at 1 coin/line today), and other places I'm in just after the bus tour has satisfied their 4 hours play requirement to earn a buffet and a free ride back home.
There's a lot of scouting that goes into when to go where, and I'm sure you know that.
It seems like Exoter175 has been put through the ringer a bit here. I guess that's ok. Someone new shows up and the first thing he says he is a professional gambler, I guess it's par for the course. Just doesn't seem very 'welcoming'.
Whenever the topic of being a professional gambler and I really don't like that terminology....in my own case I prefer to say I play blackjack for a living....but, whenever this topic comes up, there are a few members that like to weigh in, with negative responses, sort of looking down on this as a profession. I am not talking the Dan-man, who thankfully didn't participate in this thread, but rather the more normal population of this site. Mr V, you are one of them. I wouldn't describe it as a holier than thou attitude that has been discussed, but you definitely seem to look down on those of us that do this for a living. I guess that's your right, but it's a little annoying.
A couple things about 'gambling for a living'. I think it's a lot like being in business for yourself in a more traditional line or work. Most people that are in business for themselves, have to work harder and more hours than the traditional 9-5 working for the man type job, don't they? Part of the whole thing about choosing whatever you do, especially if you are in business for yourself, is that most have a passion for what they do, so they are willing to work longer and harder than a M-F 9-5 job.
That's where I am at. I absolutely love what I do for a living. That doesn't mean there aren't bad days and weeks that you....hate what you do. Doesn't every job have that? No matter what you do, right down to Tom Brady, there are times that are a struggle. But overall, through losing periods and winning, through backoffs, and the annoying atmosphere of casinos, through sometimes nasty dealers, I have a passion for the game of blackjack and love what I do. But that's me. (that's all I can really speak of).
I also want to address that thing Mr V said, that I have heard many others say. If you can make money doing this, you can make far more in another field.
In 2012, I made $140K as an AP (my first 6 figure year and best year ever)
in 2013, I made $135K
in 2014, 48K (my worst year in a decade)
and 2015, I will be over 6 figures.
That's an average of over 100k. I left a low level retail type job, 12 years ago, at age 20 to pursue this career. I was making under 20 grand. With only a high school education to my name, I don't know where I would be or what I would be doing now, but I have to believe my earnings ceiling would be quite a bit below where I am now. I don't think I could make more in another line of work. Luckily, I don't have to. :)
Quote: jjjooogggI believe shuffle tracking exist. Very few can do it. I suppose DI is possible too.
I align myself with the idea that "nothing is impossible, just highly improbable".
I've seen guys try to DI many times, everyone is an "expert", but few of them walk away with money at the end of the night. A lot of this is attributed to mismanagement of bets and bankroll, but at the end of the day, most of them don't have a very consistent throw of the dice, and that's a large part of DI. In truth, even if you have the most controlled throw in the existence of the game, you're still at the mercy of variables that you can't control, and that's what DI is truly about, reducing the variables you can personally control, and that's it, you play the game.
A lot of the misinformation with DI is this great idea that I can roll a specific number, I can't. I cant tell you how many times I've focused, with controlled breathe and a Mile long stare at the back wall, trying to hit an 8, so that I'll hit a 5 or 6 point fire, and have it turn up 7. You simply cannot control the outcome of the dice, you can merely influence it. Show me a guy who can roll boxcars three times in a row every 1 out of 15 tries, and I'll show you a multi-billionaire, it just cannot be done with any factor of being able to repeat it time and time again.
What it boils down to, is limiting the 7, not erasing it completely (as some would make you think) that's just improbable. If I can influence the dice by my throw and set, in such a way that I extend my probably of rolling a 7 to 1:7, then I've essentially beaten the odds, but I don't necessarily beat the house, because craps is a "two fold" game in respect to DI. First, I've got to get my probability greater than 1:6, then I have to find a way to bet that probability so that my outcome will become +EV, and that's where 99.9999999999% of every DI will fail and has failed. Because unlike APBJ and machine plays, because most DI guys get greeeeedy on the table. They'll start throwing hard ways, prop bets, and all sorts of stuff out there with a massive HE, and you'll just never be able to recoup the difference, and that is why DI, though probable, just doesn't work over the "long haul" for just about everyone who even tries, because beating the odds isn't enough to make the money, you then have to beat your wagers.
I don't look down on you, I just don't understand why you do it, given all the other opportunities which life affords us.
The sad thing is there are damned few gambler's who regularly pull down six figure incomes, but a lot of flameouts.
In contrast, there are a lot of guys like me who do so without putting in a lot of effort.
I guess we all choose our own windmills to tilt.
In the end it doesn't matter worth a fig; we each choose our own path before that final dirtnap: I'm just trying to inject a bit of reality into the noggin of any starry-eyed dreamers.
So who was Quasi? Garnaby again?
For every one that succeeds, how many fail?
And at what cost?
Therein lies the reality of "professional gambling."
Quote: DieterAnd some days I'm at one place because the degens came in to run off their free play mailers yesterday (which means they're not sniping the UX at 1 coin/line today), and other places I'm in just after the bus tour has satisfied their 4 hours play requirement to earn a buffet and a free ride back home.
There's a lot of scouting that goes into when to go where, and I'm sure you know that.
Oh, I absolutely know that. And to a degree, I'm very guilty at "intimidation" in some cases. Now, like I've mentioned a couple times now, I've got a team. I'm the "head honcho" of that team, I make the call on everything. Granted, I don't have to micromanage every little detail, these guys are smart and ambitious and listen to everything I've taught them that they didn't already know. My job, however, then becomes managing the "riff raff" from coming into our places and taking our plays. Now, its not all that hostile, really. I can spot an AP/Machine guy from a miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiile away, and I'll approach you and have a conversation. I'll politely let you know that there is stiff competition here, that I have 2-3 guys that day here working all of the plays, and that I'm all for healthy competition, so I'm not asking them to leave. I'll ask them to respect a certain set of "rules" so that the regulars don't get suspicious or weary and problems arise. Most everyone I've ran into respects that I do this, they respect the code, and either they move on, or they compete against myself and my team, while respecting the code. Only once have I had an issue with a guy not following "our rules" and he was removed VERY quickly from the casino. The 1 coin/line guys don't even bother coming into my establishments anymore, they've since moved on to the other casino I don't have "control" over, and nobody really bothers anyone. There are a couple "free" casinos where nobody really calls the shots, and its essentially contested between my group and another group. I've talked to "their guy" and we've both set ground rules for it so that everyone gets "theirs" and we have no issues. To the point now that its more of a relationship between coworkers and/or family. Everyone involved understands that at the end of the day this is a "job" this is their livelihood at stake, and its best to keep things churning along, than to create problems for others. Don't get me wrong though, in this metro area, I'm absolutely the fastest at what we do, and there isn't a single guy in this metro that can challenge me for $/hr simply because of my skill and speed, and sometimes I have to crack a few eggs with the riff raff so they understand that :P.
As far as scouting, you are absolutely correct. In no line of AP have I had to "scout" more than machine plays. I need to know the number and types of machines I'm dealing with at each metro area, how many casinos have how many machines, which casinos get the "bulk" play at which times and on what days. More importantly, and this goes "deep" for how much of an AP machine player one might become, I've got to scout out the competition. Figure out what they know, how many of them there are, if there's any "riff raff" at each location, and in many times, approach them to gather more information about the surrounding areas.
As it is, I've got just enough "guys" under my "command" that I can hold down our metro area fairly well, while myself and another, sometimes two, can go to another metro area and hold it down for a weekend.
I won't necessarily get into the financial structure of all of it, but everyone gets paid pretty well :D
Quote: kewljA couple thoughts if I may.
It seems like Exoter175 has been put through the ringer a bit here. I guess that's ok. Someone new shows up and the first thing he says he is a professional gambler, I guess it's par for the course. Just doesn't seem very 'welcoming'.
Whenever the topic of being a professional gambler and I really don't like that terminology....in my own case I prefer to say I play blackjack for a living....but, whenever this topic comes up, there are a few members that like to weigh in, with negative responses, sort of looking down on this as a profession. I am not talking the Dan-man, who thankfully didn't participate in this thread, but rather the more normal population of this site. Mr V, you are one of them. I wouldn't describe it as a holier than thou attitude that has been discussed, but you definitely seem to look down on those of us that do this for a living. I guess that's your right, but it's a little annoying.
A couple things about 'gambling for a living'. I think it's a lot like being in business for yourself in a more traditional line or work. Most people that are in business for themselves, have to work harder and more hours than the traditional 9-5 working for the man type job, don't they? Part of the whole thing about choosing whatever you do, especially if you are in business for yourself, is that most have a passion for what they do, so they are willing to work longer and harder than a M-F 9-5 job.
That's where I am at. I absolutely love what I do for a living. That doesn't mean there aren't bad days and weeks that you....hate what you do. Doesn't every job have that? No matter what you do, right down to Tom Brady, there are times that are a struggle. But overall, through losing periods and winning, through backoffs, and the annoying atmosphere of casinos, through sometimes nasty dealers, I have a passion for the game of blackjack and love what I do. But that's me. (that's all I can really speak of).
I also want to address that thing Mr V said, that I have heard many others say. If you can make money doing this, you can make far more in another field.
In 2012, I made $140K as an AP (my best year ever)
in 2013, I made $135K
in 2014, 48K (my worst year in a decade)
and 2015, I will be over 6 figures.
That's an average of over 100k. I left a low level retail type job, 12 years ago, at age 20 to pursue this career. I was making under 20 grand. With only a high school education to my name, I don't know where I would be or what I would be doing now, but I have to believe my earnings ceiling would be quite a bit below where I am now. I don't think I could make more in another line of work. Luckily, I don't have to. :)
KJ, I have to say, I've thoroughly enjoyed your posts on other forums, and I've taken quite a bit of wisdom out of them to suit my own interests, and like I've said on other forums, you have my utmost respect and it is deserved. That being said, I had no idea you were as young as I was. I had you pegged for some grizzly veteran in his 60's who was taking the casinos down one day at a time. Its nice to know that you're not that much older than I :P
Like you, I left a job where even with my degree, my net was less than 40k/yr which was more than comfortable for where I live. I've routinely surpassed those numbers for years, and in the last few years, I've managed to hit or just come shy of the 6 figure mark. As my repertoire increases, and my consistency, so too ( I believe ) shall my earnings. It also helps that this year is the first of hopefully many, that I've had a solid team structure around me, allowing me to truly branch out to different states in search of better regions and locations for myself and my team.
Quote: MrVI mentioned six figures because some AP's such as KJ can pull it off.
For every one that succeeds, how many fail?
And at what cost?
Therein lies the reality of "professional gambling."
Define "fail". I know most of the AP's around here, most of them don't make more than 20k/yr. The "therein lies the reality of professional gambling" part should actually be directed at those who "try" to become an AP but ultimately can't grasp it. Their cost is heavy. Those that grasp it, and put it to test, generally make money and their "cost" is merely time. To some, time is exceptionally valuable and they make the decision to stay as part timers, rather than full blown "career lifers" like myself and KJ.
Quote: kewljand 2015, I will be over 6 figures.
Eh, 1 million?
Quote: rxwineEh, 1 million?
A million is 6 zeros, not 6 figures.
Quote: EvenBobEverything you named is a common practice
in a lot of casinos. Switching dice, taking
dice away from a player. They do it because
they're superstitious, or just to bother you,
or because they don't like you. They have
a pic of you because you do things they
don't like. Maybe you take too long to
set the dice and throw, maybe you get
mouthy with the pit. Your pic isn't up
there because you win too much and
they think you're a craps AP, if that's what
you were thinking.
It isn't common practice to pull the dice from a player before his roll has completed.
It isn't common practice to switch the dice out on a player mid roll.
I'm not "mouthy" with the crew, I'm a decent tipper, every one of them knows me by name, many of us are friends outside of the casino in fact.
So what's your next theory?
Also, you didn't answer my questions.
Quote: Exoter175
I'd like you to answer those questions with honesty, as I have done with yours.
Everything you named is a common practice
in a lot of casinos. Switching dice, taking
dice away from a player. They do it because
they're superstitious, or just to bother you,
or because they don't like you. They have
a pic of you because you do things they
don't like. Maybe you take too long to
set the dice and throw, maybe you get
mouthy with the pit. Your pic isn't up
there because you win too much and
they think you're a craps AP, if that's what
you were thinking.
Quote: Exoter175It isn't common practice to pull the dice from a player before his roll has completed.
It isn't common practice to switch the dice out on a player mid roll.
I'm not "mouthy" with the crew, I'm a decent tipper, every one of them knows me by name, many of us are friends outside of the casino in fact.
So what's your next theory?
Also, you didn't answer my questions.
Don't mind EB. He's a "roulette AP" at the west Michigan Indian casinos.
Quote: EvenBobA million is 6 zeros, not 6 figures.
But it is "over" 6 figures as KJ said.
Quote: Exoter175
So what's your next theory?
.
No matter what you think the answer is to
any of the questions, they don't think you're
a craps AP who can beat them. If they did,
if even a little, they would ban you from
playing. Costs them nothing and saves a
them a whole lot of aggravation.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBut it is "over" 6 figures as KJ said.
So is a billion, maybe he meant a billion. (rolls eyes)
Quote: IbeatyouracesDon't mind EB. He's a "roulette AP" at the west Michigan Indian casinos.
Not really, I save it for Vegas. I'm there
far more often than I let on. In the
local casinos I just goof around a
little. I should go to Detroit more
often, but I really hate that city. I
can't stand being there.
Quote: MrVI mentioned six figures because some AP's such as KJ can pull it off.
I have pulled it off twice and at the risk of 'counting chickens' expect 2015 to be my third. Prior to 2012, I had a string of years in mid to upper 5 figures, which was in line with my EV at the time. But I am thrilled with that upper 5 figure range. I would be very content to make 60-80K a year. 75-80K is my blackjack EV and everything else is gravy. I've just been fortunate to have had a couple heavy gravy years in the last few years. :) (and one gravy-less or quite dry...lol)
I do understand your concern of painting a rosy and possibly unrealistic picture that can have some real negative financial consequences to newer members. I don't believe I have ever 'encouraged' anyone down my path. I am uncomfortably aware that my experiences have influenced others to pursue their dreams, as several members from different sites have told me, they 'went pro' and/or even moved to Las Vegas, because of me. As I said, I am pretty uncomfortable with that, but I like to think it was their own choosing, their own destiny, and hopefully passion that lead them to whatever site and I really had little to do with it. :/
I believe we learn from experience, and it doesn't have to be all our own experiences. There are lessons to be learned from other members mistakes and successes. I have simply tried to share some of my own experiences, good and bad, just as others before me did to my benefit.
I'll tell you sharing my experiences last year on a couple sites, this one included, was pretty embarrassing for me. It was my worse year in a decade. From my primary source of income, blackjack, I made about 27k. WAY below expectation. The second half of the year, in the red. I made about what a worker at McDonalds makes. I no more wanted to share that, in real time as I was going through it (and at times I was a little cranky) than jumping over the moon. But if I am going to share my experiences, I have to share the good and the bad, so I did.
Quote: Exoter175Quote: DieterAnd some days I'm at one place because the degens came in to run off their free play mailers yesterday (which means they're not sniping the UX at 1 coin/line today), and other places I'm in just after the bus tour has satisfied their 4 hours play requirement to earn a buffet and a free ride back home.
There's a lot of scouting that goes into when to go where, and I'm sure you know that.
Oh, I absolutely know that. And to a degree, I'm very guilty at "intimidation" in some cases. Now, like I've mentioned a couple times now, I've got a team. I'm the "head honcho" of that team, I make the call on everything. Granted, I don't have to micromanage every little detail, these guys are smart and ambitious and listen to everything I've taught them that they didn't already know. My job, however, then becomes managing the "riff raff" from coming into our places and taking our plays. Now, its not all that hostile, really. I can spot an AP/Machine guy from a miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiile away, and I'll approach you and have a conversation. I'll politely let you know that there is stiff competition here, that I have 2-3 guys that day here working all of the plays, and that I'm all for healthy competition, so I'm not asking them to leave. I'll ask them to respect a certain set of "rules" so that the regulars don't get suspicious or weary and problems arise. Most everyone I've ran into respects that I do this, they respect the code, and either they move on, or they compete against myself and my team, while respecting the code. Only once have I had an issue with a guy not following "our rules" and he was removed VERY quickly from the casino. The 1 coin/line guys don't even bother coming into my establishments anymore, they've since moved on to the other casino I don't have "control" over, and nobody really bothers anyone. There are a couple "free" casinos where nobody really calls the shots, and its essentially contested between my group and another group. I've talked to "their guy" and we've both set ground rules for it so that everyone gets "theirs" and we have no issues. To the point now that its more of a relationship between coworkers and/or family. Everyone involved understands that at the end of the day this is a "job" this is their livelihood at stake, and its best to keep things churning along, than to create problems for others. Don't get me wrong though, in this metro area, I'm absolutely the fastest at what we do, and there isn't a single guy in this metro that can challenge me for $/hr simply because of my skill and speed, and sometimes I have to crack a few eggs with the riff raff so they understand that :P.
As far as scouting, you are absolutely correct. In no line of AP have I had to "scout" more than machine plays. I need to know the number and types of machines I'm dealing with at each metro area, how many casinos have how many machines, which casinos get the "bulk" play at which times and on what days. More importantly, and this goes "deep" for how much of an AP machine player one might become, I've got to scout out the competition. Figure out what they know, how many of them there are, if there's any "riff raff" at each location, and in many times, approach them to gather more information about the surrounding areas.
As it is, I've got just enough "guys" under my "command" that I can hold down our metro area fairly well, while myself and another, sometimes two, can go to another metro area and hold it down for a weekend.
I won't necessarily get into the financial structure of all of it, but everyone gets paid pretty well :D
If we're ever there, wherever you're at, we're just blowing through so don't mind us :-)
IMO, vulturing stuff is a bottom feeder type of AP...probably mostly because when I see someone vulturing UX -- they're generally dirty, smelly, they'll hop onto the machine as soon as a player gets up - almost pushing 'em outta the seat. They'll go right up in between two players who are playing, just to check a machine, annoying those players (usually makin' them move their drinks, a purse or something else). But I mostly consider or would define a bottom feeder as someone who does not generate their own EV, or at least a majority of it.
I'd much rather generate my own EV, generally by playing good promotions and getting good mail. Usually finding an angle or a different way in attacking a promotion.
Many things can be scaled. Vulturing UX and other games doesn't (don't? DON HELP...I think it's "doesn't") scale at all. You'll always be doing the same plays over and over again. Not that there's a problem with that....just not something I want to get in to (not into!).
Yes, I'm on BJTF.
Only way to multi-quote is by doing it manually. Generally, I hit QUOTE on someone's post, write my response, select-all then copy, go back to previous page, find another post I want to quote, hit QUOTE button, write my response, then paste my previous response onto the bottom of that post I just wrote. Then select-all, copy, go back a page, rinse, wash, RePete.
You can also just keep editing your post, but, I don't like doing that because [if it's a long thread/post, especially], oftentimes people will read and respond to my post before I get it edited. And if my post is at the bottom of one of the pages and a new page is created, then all hell breaks loose cuz people don't read the amended versions of my (or in your case, your) post.
Welcome to WOV.
Quote: Exoter175Define "fail". I know most of the AP's around here, most of them don't make more than 20k/yr.
I define "fail" in this context, that of the full time gambler, as not earning enough money to support yourself, your family, and your interests / obligations in life.
Either you make enough bread, or you don't.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBut it is "over" 6 figures as KJ said.
I'm all for pedantry, but $100,000.01 (or more) is over 6 figures.
Quote: MrV
Either you make enough bread, or you don't.
Bread? What are you, 70?
Quote: MrVI define "fail" in this context, that of the full time gambler, as not earning enough money to support yourself, your family, and your interests / obligations in life.
Either you make enough bread, or you don't.
My first 3 years as a "professional gambler", I made 31 thousand dollars. That was for all three years. lol. I averaged 10k and one year I was in the upper FOUR figures!
I didn't make enough 'bread' to buy.....bread. mac & cheese and peanut butter sandwiches (couldn't afford jelly) were my staples. I paid my half of the rent and had very little left over to grow my bankroll which I was trying to do at the time.
I am sure everyone that knew me, friends and family thought I was 'failing'. I think it was probably my greatest success. :)
In fairness it took some time for me to come to that conclusion. Back when I was going through it, I did not think it was my greatest success. :/
Quote: DieterI'm all for pedantry, but $100,000.01 (or more) is over 6 figures.
In that case, so is 1,000,000 ,but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to confuse one with the other because that's a big difference if you told someone in each case you make over six figures.
I don't think people include cents normally, but just my opinion.
edit
1,000.00
eh,
and again.
1000.01
I give up.
