Can I Make A Living Thru Gambling?

Quote: OooLaHNee

With patience money management and discipline..

MM (money management) is code speak
among system players for using progressions.

The Aulani (pronounced Ahh-ooo-lah'-nee)
Resort is being constructed by Disney in
Hawaii.

To précis: Can you make a living through gambling? Yes. Is it easy? No. It's a slog.

===General consensus on this thread===
Every bet in the casino has a house edge except for poker or sport betting. BJ used to be beatable but much harder now. Poker will still be VERY hard. APing video poker is basically grinding it out hoping for a Royal.

You can make a living as an AP but it is not easy. It takes really strong discipline, focus, patient, persistent and preparation.

Be aware to endure swings especially going through periods of losing streaks

Learn, practice at home until I can build up a sufficient bankroll. Then go to casino part time. Then full time.

Challenges: Majority of knowledge doesn't come from a book, need a decent bankroll, huge learning curve, it's a job rather than a fun activity.

Progression strategies break 6th commandment
======================================

===Homework===
Read 'Why You Lose at Poker'

Read 30 books about poker

Read kewlj's 3 years worth of posts

Study https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-school/

Buy CVCX and CVBJ software from qfit.com

Read Romes' 3 parts articles 'A to Z Counting Cards In Blackjack'

Read Mission146's articles 'Introduction to Advantage Play'
==============

Let me know if you think the 'homework' is a good starting point?

You really nailed it, JustAluck. You might be
the real deal. Slow and steady wins the race.

Quote: petroglyph

Were you named after your mom?

I met a woman named "Koo lah knee" [sp?]

Pure coincidence

Do you like to gamble?

Do you chase your +EV losses with -EV games?

Can you walk into a casino and not play at all?

Can you do this about 10 times in a day?

Ask yourself these questions and answer them honestly.

Quote: djatc

Do you like to gamble?

Do you chase your +EV losses with -EV games?

Can you walk into a casino and not play at all?

Can you do this about 10 times in a day?

Ask yourself these questions and answer them honestly.

That's the discipline issue that destroys the hopes of most potential APers, even ones with a great head for the game.

And when you say answer honestly, very few can answer honestly.

Quote: JustALuck

===General consensus on this thread===
Every bet in the casino has a house edge except for poker or sport betting...<SNIP>...

No. ONE person made that statement, and that person is confused or misspoke.

The casino takes a cut of the action, vigorish, rake, juice, hold, whatever you wish to call it, in all games, including these. There are two games which are not "house banked" meaning that you are only betting against the other players rather than the house and when offering the game they function only as a neutral stakeholder with no financial interest in the outcome. Those games are actual poker (which has nothing at all to do with the so-called 'video-poker' machines) and parimutual wagering which currently exists only on horse race wagers which are transmitted directly into the tracks' parimutual pools (and not all racing related wagers that exist in casino books).

I think he probably confused sports with parimutual wagers. Outside of parimutual wagers, which I have never seen offered on non-racing sports, sports bets are house banked, so you are betting against the casino and if you win a wager you won it from the house and are paid from the casino's money, same as with a slot machine or roulette wheel or whatever. And the casino keeps a cut of the action regardless of that, so there is still a "house edge" regardless of whether it is a house banked wager.

And if any of that is new news to someone, the probability you'll be "making a living" in a casino any time soon other than as an employee or owner is less than zero.

Quote: JustALuck

Every bet in the casino has a house edge except for poker or sport betting.

Don't kid yourself. Poker and sports have a house edge too; they just call it a rake or a vig.

Quote: DrawingDead

The casino takes a cut of the action, vigorish, rake, juice, hold, whatever you wish to call it, in all games, including these.

DrawingDead, I just read a beginner poker book this morning and the introduction chapter states:

"Since the house takes a cut (or rake) from every pot, the average poker player loses over time. In a typical game, the house might collect around $100 per hour. Someone has to lose that money, as it certainly doesn't magically appear from nowhere...At a typical small stakes table, only the best two or three players can expect to overcome the house's cut and show a long-term profit."

Quote: JustALuck

DrawingDead, I just read a beginner poker book this morning and the introduction chapter states:

"Since the house takes a cut (or rake) from every pot, the average poker player loses over time. In a typical game, the house might collect around $100 per hour. Someone has to lose that money, as it certainly doesn't magically appear from nowhere...At a typical small stakes table, only the best two or three players can expect to overcome the house's cut and show a long-term profit."

That's right. The standard rake in cash games in Las Vegas poker rooms is 10% of the pot up to a cap of $4 per hand for the house, with some others (mostly just the Caesars owned properties) dropping $5 down the hole. At around 30-ish hands per hour, and allowing for some small orphan pots that don't reach the cap, figuring about $100 per hour coming off the table and into the rake box for the house is about right or if anything possibly a little on the low side depending on individual game circumstances.

And if I get the sense that there are as many as three potential long-term consistent winning players at any one table, the only thing I have to say about that is: "Table change, please! The loud one over there in the corner with a pyramid those guys wearing football jerseys have made out of stacking their forty-seven empty cocktail glasses will do just fine." If you are around a lot and watch closely, nothing remotely close to a third of those who play are winning players. But about 187% of them are absolutely sure that they really are.

Problem for those who try to grind it out for a living, which I don't: That table change to a group of hard drinking fun loving tourists on vacation is not always available when you have to get in the hours to pay the rent. Rather than cherry picking times and places to play and walking away when the coffee cups and water bottles outnumber the cocktail glasses, as I do.

Quote: DrawingDead

That's right. The standard rake in cash games in Las Vegas poker rooms is 10% of the pot up to a cap of $4 per hand for the house, with some others (mostly just the Caesars owned properties) dropping $5 down the hole. At around 30-ish hands per hour, and allowing for some small orphan pots that don't reach the cap, figuring about $100 per hour coming off the table and into the rake box for the house is about right or if anything possibly a little on the low side depending on individual game circumstances...

When I dealt charity poker, or rake was 10% up to $6. Yes that's high, but pretty standard for the area including the Detroit casinos. Every once in a while our manager would have us have a race to see who could get the most rake in one hour. The most I got was about $150 or so.

New to the forum, not to AP, figured I might chime in here and add some fresh perspective.

Making a living from gambling, or more specifically AP'ing is NOT easy. I repeat.......NOT EASY!!!!!! Most people have already said this, but I feel like its necessary and justified to repeat it once more.

In order to be a successful AP, you need to have a huge repertoire of traits, much less "talents" to bring to the table.

#1: You have to have discipline. I mean it, too. If you are the type of person who has to "play" when he/she steps foot in a casino, you simply won't make it. There are going to be times where you won't have many plays, if any, and you'll have to just write off your entire day. In all honesty, these are the days I loathe the most. I'd rather lose money, than waste away my day doing nothing, but I say that in the sense of losing money on a +EV play. The days where I get ZERO action are rough, they are terrible. Even though I'd be better off doing nothing than having a losing day where I met +EV plays, I'd still much rather have the +EV plays because I know at the end of the day, at the end of all things, I'll be ahead. But it goes further than that, much, much further than that. You have to have physical and mental discipline. You will tire quickly, both mentally and physically (depending on your repertoire). The stress and anxiety will be present, perhaps even paranoia, and you have to have the mental discipline to fight all of this, on top of fighting the urge to gamble WITHOUT an edge, which is by far the biggest destructive power that faces any AP. In my line of "work" there will be days where I wait 2 hours before I get a "play". Some days I can't keep up with the plays and I'll wear myself down physically and mentally and I've got to be able to combat that. Beyond that, you've got to be able to handle the day to day stress of NOTHING being guaranteed. For some, it doesn't bother us one bit. For others, its the biggest thing eating at them mentally. A lot of this depends heavily on your situation in life. I'm single, young, well bankrolled, highly intelligent, and highly ambitious. For me, this is a "dream" job because I get to make my own hours, get to take "vacations" all across the country and take in the sights, and if I'm having a bad day, I can stop it right then and there and go home to relax and unwind. For some, they won't get it this easy. Some of the AP's that I know, are basically shoehorned into the job because they have nothing else and every day is a struggle with the pressure and stress of having to provide for themselves and their loved ones. Its a rough, rough life. There is no glitz, there is no glamour, its just a repetitive process in which to some degree, you will struggle with every day.

#2 Discipline, see #1. I cannot stress this enough. You have to be able to not play -EV plays, not chase +EV losses, keep your cool and emotions under a constant check, and you've got to work your ass off and spend long hours day after day. For most, they will burn out either because they lost discipline and truly "gambled" or the stress and pressure built up too much and they could never find the ample time to decompress and unwind from their days or weeks and get some solid rest. At the start of the year, I was at the casino 12-14 hours a day between multiple venues and never took a day off. By the time I started having physical pain in my feet from the blisters and calluses, I ended up needing to take nearly a week off of "work" in order to recover. From there on, I bought a proper set of shoes and insoles, and started taking "off" mandatory days. This serves as a reminder to an entirely different set of disciplines. You have to have enough discipline in your mind to tell yourself "no" so that you can take time off to look after YOURSELF. And I cannot stress that enough. I know guys in the casinos for 3-4 days at a time, who will sleep once or twice a week and get back to the casino. You simply cannot do that to yourself. You need to look after your feet if you are a "hustler" and you need to keep a sharp mental game if you're an APBJ or Poker player. Beyond that, your health is important. If you're a full time AP, you don't have healthcare and benefits provided for you, that has to come out of your pocket, so one of your highest priorities needs to be your own health, and if you leave that as an oversight, it will come back to bite you in the ass.

#3 Intelligence. This may come as a shock to some, but believe it or not, you have to be "smart" to do this. Now, I'm not talking about having a PHD in rocket science, or a law degree from an ivy league school. I'm talking about the broad set of skills that will serve you will in life. Things like common sense, a mind for finances, the ability to communicate well with others, hell even the ability to sense your surroundings. These things all play a part in the finer parts of the AP game. Managing your bankroll is key, learning a specific strategy to Blackjack, VP, Poker, you name it, is key. Being able to sense, before "issue", when you're being watched and need to take a step back from what you are doing. All of these things are vital to what we "do", and being able to micromanage yourself, your attitude, and your livelihood is seriously important. Also, having a high IQ, a solid memory, and the ability to rationalize, and think logically will help quite a bit too.

#4 Patience. Honestly, probably one of the most important things a man or woman could have in this "field" of "work". Without it, you will not, nay, cannot be successful. I don't think I've ever seen an impatient AP, much less than impatient AP do well for him or herself.


Now, to the OP's question.

Can you make a living "gambling" (in this case, AP'ing).

Simple answer, YES! If you can get past the pressure and stresses of the every day grind, and believe me that is exactly what it is, a grind, then you are well off to begin life as an AP. You are, however, going to need to have a little time on your side as the learning curve is steep and you'll need to have a "big bag of tricks" to work with. In the last two years, I've added APBJ and DI to my stable of Machine Hustles and VUXing. I am, for lack of a better combination of words, "The complete AP". There are few casinos I can't hustle and make a buck on. Whether its VUXing, APBJ, DI, comp hustling, APVP, I can find SOMETHING to make money on nearly every day. Now, what I will tell you, the OP, is that some of these forms of AP are going to work VERRRRRRRRRRY different from one another, and they will each require a different bankroll to get started. I suggest that you work a real job and save up a LOT of money before you even hit the live scenarios within a casino, depending on which forms you learn first, of course. In APBJ you might need to save up 25-35k just to begin low limit play, in DI, you'll easily require 15-25k to legitimately start. In low versions of VUXing, you'll only need a total bankroll of maybe $200, and most days you'll only need $20 to hustle an entire city. It all depends on your skills and what you're willing to accomplish.


Let me give you a typical day for me in the life of an AP.

10:45AM, wake up, hop in the shower, get dressed.
11:15AM go to work
11:45AM arrive at work
11:50AM walk the "floor" and check all progressive numbers on must hit progressives
NOON begin advantage machine plays and VUXing. If I've finished all of my plays quickly and its a slow day, I'll eat.
5PM Eat lunch/Dinner/Something, if the current casino is dead, switch casinos and repeat the process started at the 11:50am timeline all over.
8PM take a break and analyze the productivity for the day. "Have I made money today? Is it a decent chunk of money? Is the casino dead and I need to switch again? Are there any machines at previous casinos that I need to check back on? If there is, switch again and repeat the process.
10:30PM-Midnight, wind things down for the night and head home, barring any unforeseen "must hit" progressives. Make nightly deposit at the bank and/or pool for larger weekly deposit.
12:30PM start winding down, watch a few tv shows, fart around on the internet, take a shower if that sounds appealing, eat dinner if I had to skip it earlier in the day.

I do this 5-6 days a week, though I've been sticking with 5 days. Now, I haven't included the finer details like what I'm looking for, how I'm doing it, some of the smaller intricacies of my job that require explanations like "sweating", I'm intentionally leaving it vague. I do that because I'm trying to make it a point that, my days are very, very full when I "work", and because of that, I'm very successful, but there is a lot of my life that I struggle with, like maintaining solid relationships with my friends and girlfriends if I don't give myself enough time "off" to compensate. Luckily, most everyone that is near and dear to me, knows what I do and they understand that I am very, very busy, and I make a solid effort to try to accommodate for friends and family on my days off. Being a family oriented guy, this honestly helps me to "unwind" further on my days off than I'd have otherwise done just hanging out by myself and doing laundry. Having conversations with my family members, and giving/getting updates on life keeps me engaged and helps me cope with the fact my every day life is ANYTHING but normal by comparison.

Now, I'll be honest, I'm a Machine AP more than anything. I've done a healthy dose of DI and APBJ in my life, but the skillset that I have right now, with what is currently available in my casinos, allows me to make FAR more money from the machines/VUXing, than I'll make at APBJ. As far as DI is concerned, I use that "skill" only when the machine plays are lacking and/or I need to have some "table time" for extended "comp" reasons. I know guys that DI all the time and do well, but honestly, none of them do better than I do at machine AP/VUX, and unless I grow a much larger bankroll by magnitudes, I couldn't possibly make as much money as I do now, if I went back to APBJ with my current bankroll (and keep in mind, by standards of an average person, its f%^&ing massive, its a retirement account by comparison).

I have to stress though, this won't come easy. I'm a very physically gifted individual, so MM on DI came easy to me, my H/E coordination is excellent, and to boot, I register in the top .2% of the world in intelligence quotients and factors, grading out as "highly superior", "highly gifted", "Genius or near genius", and "high extreme" depending on the test you base your judgements on. I bring this up because there are no two ways about it, to AP you will need intelligence. You don't have to be a genius, but it might help. There are certain things that will help you and hurt you in this "business" that we "work" in. Patience, Discipline, and Knowledge will all come paramount. You don't have to be 145+ IQ to do this, you can do this with a 95 IQ, so long as you possess the uncommon qualities that truly allow an AP to set himself apart from a "lucky gambler". Now, I'll be honest. Most of the APs I've trained or ran into and networked with, all likely register in the 115-120+ quotient. These guys weren't born yesterday, and a lot of us have a pretty solid education to work with, but every once in a while you'll run into the guys who seem of average intelligence and do this more because "it works" and less because they "understand" why it works. These guys will be tough competition for you, as they comprise about 60-70% of the "hustler" or "Machine AP" population. They are slow to "pick up" on "new" plays, but they will eventually find out, especially if they identify you as "better" or "superior" or "smart", because they'll start watching you while you aren't noticing. Like dogs at the end of the table, they'll wait patiently for you to leave some crumbs behind. These guys will also be some of your "worst news". They'll create unwanted attention for themselves, and for you, they'll expose plays and show others how to do them, and eventually "ruin" the value of each play as time goes on, you're just going to have to deal with this and hopefully foresee these things happening and plan to handle them before they come up. I'm not even joking about this, I've been attacked INSIDE a casino before by one of these guys, threatened on a blackjack table by a "so called expert" at blackjack who didn't want me to "wong in".

It took me some time before I stopped to think about it all and realized, at the end of the day, this is our livelihood. Both for us as individuals and for our competition, it is in our best interests to keep everything low key, away from prying eyes, and not create more competition than we currently have. If you're blessed to have little to no competition, I envy you. I personally suffer from heavy, heavy competition where I "hustle" and I've had to go to some extremes to protect and insulate myself from others' stupidity. I've created a "code" in which EVERY hustler in my area now goes by, so we don't start fights and cause trouble, everyone is accountable for their actions, and we communicate and network with one another so that we can all survive, instead of tearing each other apart.

Another sidetrack, Networking. It is important. Learn it, live it, develop it, and flourish. There's always a new machine out, or a new machine coming, and you'll need to know before everyone else knows in your area, in order to get a leg on the competition, you'll need to establish a network of information and trust. Share with those that you know will keep it a secret and that you truly trust, and always give yourself the opportunity to engage "traveling competition" in a discussion about where they have come from, where they are going, what they know, what they don't know, and share information, swap phone numbers, do what you need to do so you are ahead of everyone else in your area, its super, super important.

Practice, practice, practice. Whether it be counting down a deck, practicing a dice throw, or brushing up on VP basic strategies, you need to practice, this is your craft, your art, and ultimately it will improve your bottom line, there are zero excuses to avoid practice.

At the end of the day as the old adage goes, you'll only get out what you put in. I work my ass off "hustling" in the Midwest. I know everyone from Denver to St. Louis, Sioux City down to OKC, I treat others with respect and they show me the same respect and kindness. After all, we are all just one big family, and its never a bad thing to have someone out there who has your back.

OP, I do the exact thing that you ask in your question. I make a living as an advantage player, I work hard, I've created a giant network of individuals for information sharing, I've created a team to share the burden and spoils with, and I regularly bring home more money than I ever did in middle management (where I used to work prior to switching to AP). Overall, it isn't just about the money, but more about the fact that I enjoy what I do, who I do it with, it allows me for freedoms that I never had, and I absolutely love it, but it NEVER came easy, and it will NEVER get easier. Its an uphill battle the entire way.


Another side note, Kewlj, are you KJ from the BJ forum?

I hope you you don't think this too forward, Exoter, but I gotta know. What is your IQ?

Quote: 1BB

I hope you you don't think this too forward, Exoter, but I gotta know. What is your IQ?

Not high enough to prevent me from being foolish :D

It also largely depends on the format, I've tested on both WAIS-III and WAIS-IV, as well as the Kaufman battery throughout my years of schooling. I prefer not to give an exact number, but if you know where the scales differentiate in terms of levels, you'd get a general idea on my "floor".

Quote: Exoter175

Not high enough to prevent me from being foolish.

Intelligence is different from wisdom.

Quote: Dieter

Intelligence is different from wisdom.

I think I read that once on one of those fortune cookies from the buffet, haha!

Its true, though. You can be the smartest guy in the room, but if you don't know where to look or what to look for, that intelligence will account for nothing. A lesson I've more than once learned, embarrassingly.

Quote: Exoter175

Now, to the OP's question.

Can you make a living "gambling" (in this case, AP'ing).

Simple answer, YES!
...
I have to stress though, this won't come easy. I'm a very physically gifted individual, so MM on DI came easy to me, my H/E coordination is excellent, and to boot, I register in the top .2% of the world in intelligence quotients and factors, grading out as "highly superior", "highly gifted", "Genius or near genius", and "high extreme" depending on the test you base your judgements on. I bring this up because there are no two ways about it, to AP you will need intelligence.

With a 1 in 500 intelligence level, I'd expect that your AP income is just about as high as anyone's. What's your average hourly win rate, just so the OP can have an upper bound on what to expect?

Quote: MathExtremist

With a 1 in 500 intelligence level, I'd expect that your AP income is just about as high as anyone's.

I wouldn't, and I disagree that AP requires high intelligence.

Certain aspects do require intelligence, but those aspects are hard to monetize.

Quote: Exoter175

I'm a very physically gifted individual ... I register in the top .2% of the world in intelligence quotients and factors, grading out as "highly superior", "highly gifted", "Genius or near genius", and "high extreme" depending on the test you base your judgements on.

Perhaps, but there's always somebody else out there who's smarter .

Quote: Dieter

I wouldn't, and I disagree that AP requires high intelligence.

Certain aspects do require intelligence, but those aspects are hard to monetize.

I was just attempting to discern whether someone with a self-described top 0.2% intelligence also has a self-described top 0.2% income.

I don't think there are too many APs averaging over $100/hour, let alone what you'd need to crack the top 1% (400k/year, roughly). I'd expect the top 0.2% of income is well over $2MM/year though I have no quick way to look that up. The OP's question was "can you make a living" -- but what qualifies as "a living?"

Quote: Exoter175

I have never had any blisters on my feet from AP'ing. You are describing more of the hard life of a machine vulture who's added some other things to his arsenal.
-------------------------------------------------------------
If someone is struggling with self discipline as you seem to be describing. I would run away from AP and get away from casinos. I'm not talking about a guy that messes around and plays something that is -EV occasionally. It shouldn't be a struggle or issue in the first place.
----------------------------------------------------------

DI seriously???

RED

FLAGS.

Quote: AxelWolf

...DI seriously???

RED

FLAGS.

Agreed. Lost any credibility with this claim.

Yeah, I guffawed as well when I saw it.

Let's just see how far into the maze this one wanders.

Quote: Exoter175

Another side note, Kewlj, are you KJ from the BJ forum?

Yes, Exotor175. One and the same. Welcome to WoV.

As you will see this can be a 'tough' site. I knew reading your post the DI comment would get the 'boys' fired up. lol.

I do disagree somewhat with your thoughts on needing a high IQ. To me, IQ is book smarts and book smarts and common sense often conflict. Making a living in the casinos is one of those cases where 'street smarts' or in this case 'casino smarts' is needed, not book smarts. I am living proof that you don't need to be among the smart people to make a living from casino play. Although in fairness, I do the most elementary and basic of techniques, both blackjack (card counting) and what supplemental machine play my partner and I do, so maybe that fact contradicts my statement. :/

I would place common sense, knowledge of casinos, and games (casino smarts), discipline and patience, particularly discipline and patience in handling your bankroll, as key traits needed.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Agreed. Lost any credibility with this claim.

I'm going to amend this to "some" credibility.

Quote: kewlj

...I do disagree somewhat with your thoughts on needing a high IQ. To me, IQ is book smarts and book smarts and common sense often conflict. Making a living in the casinos is one of those cases where 'street smarts' or in this case 'casino smarts' is needed, not book smarts. I am living proof that you don't need to be among the smart people to make a living from casino play. Although in fairness, I do the most elementary and basic of techniques, both blackjack (card counting) and what supplemental machine play my partner and I do, so maybe that fact contradicts my statement. :/

I would place common sense, knowledge of casinos, and games (casino smarts), discipline and patience, particularly discipline and patience in handling your bankroll, as key traits needed.

High IQs are not needed for any AP play. Any knucklehead can learn any of the various strategies to beat these games.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Any knucklehead can learn any of the various strategies to beat these games.

Must be where everybody went. We're left with the cream of the crop.

Quote: QuasiIntellectu

Must be where everybody went. We're left with the cream of the crop.

Yeah, you tell us DoubleorNothing :-)

Quote: Exoter175

New to the forum, not to AP, figured I might chime in here and add some fresh perspective.

Outstanding post!

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yeah, you tell us DoubleorNothing :-)

If and only if you show us.

Sorry, I'm not a teacher. You'll have to learn on your own.

Quote: Wizard

Outstanding post!

+1

Two things that won't go over well with the forum, though:

(1) DI
(2) Bragging about (or really even mentioning) your high IQ. mkl45678 already went that route.

Everything else was great, though.

Exoter175: You consider yourself an intelligent fellow, so perhaps you can clearly and accurately describe how you have observed and employed DI in aid of your actual claimed AP.

People have come on to this board for years claiming that DI works for them, but nobody has ever been able to prove that it actually works as claimed.

Perhaps with you keen intellect you can cut through the BS and distill DI to its essence.

Welcome!

If you were as smart as you say you are, well......why the f*** are you doing so many scavenge plays?

Quote: MrV

Exoter175: You consider yourself an intelligent fellow, so perhaps you can clearly and accurately describe how you have observed and employed DI in aid of your actual claimed AP

As soon as I got to DI and 'practice your dice throws',
my bullcrap meter went off. It went off first with
wandering around a casino for 14 hours a day with
blisters on your feet. It went off again with the constant
mention of how smart he is.

I've no doubt he's doing something, but it's not DI or
'wonging in' at BJ. It's some kind of comps hustle,
mostly, with bottom feeding machine hustling thrown
in. There are lots of these guys in the Midwest, barely
eeking out a living because they don't want to get
a real job. They brag about huge BR's, but are always
close to being broke. They do network with others
or they'd be killing hunting and killing each other in
parking lots. I guess this is AP'ing, a bottom rung of'
it anyway.

Quote: MathExtremist

With a 1 in 500 intelligence level, I'd expect that your AP income is just about as high as anyone's. What's your average hourly win rate, just so the OP can have an upper bound on what to expect?

I'll be the first one to debunk that idea. Intelligence is great, don't get me wrong, but there's more to the equation than merely intelligence. There are an innumerable amount of variables that can go into an AP's theoretical hourly win that can scale it in both directions. Available Machine hustles, Table conditions on BJ, other competition, travel/living expenses, etc.

To be honest MathExtremist, I gave up projections in hourly win rates long ago, and I don't have enough empirical data currently to sit down and average it all out. That being said, those that know me from BJTF, know that I'd have zero problem breaking that information down into daily averages once I attained the necessary data.

That being said, most weekdays I'll settle into $14-16/hr with what I do, but its the weekends that truly escalate the variance in the hourly win rate. It would not at all be surprising if I worked 24 hours on Friday and Saturday, and came home with $1200. Some weekends that number is as great as $3200, and on terrible weekends, as little as $800.

I fully suspect that there are guys out there like KJ from BJTF, who green/blackchip more than I make with all angles combined, I simply do not have the games that he has in my geographical location, and thats fine by me, because my bills are paid, my retirement account grows, my BR grows, and I enjoy what I do.

PS is there any way I can muliquote within the thread without having to manually do it?

Well how 'bout this, learn something new on a Tuesday! 'Cause most folks casually looking at this and similar sites naturally have gotten the impression that being developmentally disabled or at least distinctly slow along with extreme emotional immaturity if not outright mental illness is a remarkably common distinguishing characteristic, perhaps nearly a requirement. That, along with gravitating toward a small online circle holding virtual hands to chant about how they are actually very clever and "know" they are really super sharp, in spite of the rest of the world that that thinks otherwise & just doesn't get it like they do . But no, such folk who appear to nearly everyone else in normal life as very troubled and significantly less capable than the average Wal-Mart shopper, actually have superior intellect or are really super wise in mysterious ways. Well thanks, I'll make a note of that. But don't expect the rest of the world to be highly impressed and rush to agree any time soon.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have never had any blisters on my feet from AP'ing. You are describing more of the hard life of a machine vulture who's added some other things to his arsenal.
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If someone is struggling with self discipline as you seem to be describing. I would run away from AP and get away from casinos. I'm not talking about a guy that messes around and plays something that is -EV occasionally. It shouldn't be a struggle or issue in the first place.
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DI seriously???

RED

FLAGS.

If you've never gotten blisters on your feet, you've not truly Machine hustled in a crowded environment. Machine vulturing absolutely is part of my repertoire AxelWolf, with the available machines and floor plan, part of my job is simply walking very fast for most of my day. A poor fitting pair of shoes will assist in the blisters, perhaps you were just fortunate enough to have invested in a comfortable pair of shoes before you learned to machine hustle. I learned the lesson, I made the investment, haven't had the issue again. I've read some of your posts on this forum, have for a while, and I know you're familiar with machine hustles and competition abroad, so I'm shocked to see you comment against the blisters comment, honestly.

Most APs I've known aren't really math geniuses, they know just enough to delegate that to someone who is extremely gifted at math. What they do have is the ability to see every angle possible on a promotion or machine. I don't really know how to calculate standard deviations, or most complex math. I can't play most VP at 100% accuracy.

Quote: kewlj

Yes, Exotor175. One and the same. Welcome to WoV.

As you will see this can be a 'tough' site. I knew reading your post the DI comment would get the 'boys' fired up. lol.

I do disagree somewhat with your thoughts on needing a high IQ. To me, IQ is book smarts and book smarts and common sense often conflict. Making a living in the casinos is one of those cases where 'street smarts' or in this case 'casino smarts' is needed, not book smarts. I am living proof that you don't need to be among the smart people to make a living from casino play. Although in fairness, I do the most elementary and basic of techniques, both blackjack (card counting) and what supplemental machine play my partner and I do, so maybe that fact contradicts my statement. :/

I would place common sense, knowledge of casinos, and games (casino smarts), discipline and patience, particularly discipline and patience in handling your bankroll, as key traits needed.

I completely agree with you KJ, and perhaps my comment about having a "high IQ" was perceived wrong. In my years on this planet, its always been the guys with moderately above average or higher IQ's that have been financially sound, plentiful common sense, and so forth. Obviously, with us being card counters, there's some intelligence baseline there that has to be founded to be able to remember hundreds of indices, while being able to multitask your count, possible side counts, and do it all on the fly in moments while not making mistakes. To me, that's "high intelligence" though intelligence quotient may not validify a sheer number to become viable at it.

You and I both know you're a little bit more "elementary and basic" than you suggest, and you're far too modest for your own good here. I know you're one of the few to legitimately make it in vegas as a full timer, and again, you're far too modest about it, but that's just your good nature. I've known a lot of AP's KJ, and none are as ready and willing to talk about their losses in depth as you have been on BJTF, and I found that inspiring. Truth be told, when I switched to the absolute full time gig, I drew inspiration from you in doing so.

As far as the DI thing, I knew it was going to draw heat, and you know I like to ruffle a few feathers here and there, but truth be told, its a thing.

Quote: MrV

Exoter175: You consider yourself an intelligent fellow, so perhaps you can clearly and accurately describe how you have observed and employed DI in aid of your actual claimed AP.

People have come on to this board for years claiming that DI works for them, but nobody has ever been able to prove that it actually works as claimed.

Perhaps with you keen intellect you can cut through the BS and distill DI to its essence.

Welcome!

What proof do you require? If you're so deadset against it, and your mind already has a predisposition against it, what information could I possibly provide you for its success that would otherwise change your mind? I can give you story after story after story of it working, but in the end, will it have truly convinced you unless you were present?

I know your skepticism against it, and I too was the same way, in some cases I still am, especially so against those that tell wonderful stories about it, when I know the true, "grinding" nature of what it is to DI. The truth of the matter is, I've probably been more lucky than good. Unlike blackjack and machine plays, I certainly and admittedly haven't been able to generate enough data to ever truly establish its validity like I can with APBJ, and most from BJTF know that my previous play there would generate enough data on that table to generate its validity. I don't have that with DI yet, and it'll probably take me YEARS to be able to back the data up. What I have, as of now, is simply a breakdown in trips and profits that would currently suggest its validity, and place it below APBJ in its viability and profitability in comparison and terms of $/hr.

I do it, however, because like all things Casino, there's more than one angle that I'm angling for, and if you were ever on BJTF, you'd know I angle for a lot more than just $/hr and you'd know the type of "player" that I am in terms of the persona I like to play to dissuade the idea of heat from an AP perspective.

That being said, you don't know me, how I work that "persona" and in time you might be privy enough to figure it out, but as any many would or should, we all have our repertoire and use it differently. I, personally, use DI for comps/tier points/food etc. Not so much for the money, though the profits are there.

Quote: RS

If you were as smart as you say you are, well......why the f*** are you doing so many scavenge plays?

RollingStoned from the other forum right? If so, I knew that avatar looked similar haha.

To be frank with you, its simply due to its plentiful nature and lack of heat. Obviously you know I'm not going to get super in depth with what I look for, nor what I inevitably do with it, but there exists such a situation where being on the tables in certain environments is less profitable for me. Not to mention, with those scavenge plays and overall machine plays that I run into, I simply don't lose at it, and that's always a nice thing. Unlike APBJ where I can get myself into +EV scenarios and still lose, the likelihood that I'll ever lose in a day doing what I do with what I have available is so minuscule, so small, so unlikely, that its almost damned near impossible for me to ever walk away from the casino with less money than I started with, and I truly mean that. I'm sure a day will come where all I get are 10 VUX plays and I lose on all of them and I'm done for the day, but I simply just don't put myself into those situations. Its okay to stay home on slow days and catch up on tv shows :P

Quote: EvenBob

As soon as I got to DI and 'practice your dice throws',
my bullcrap meter went off. It went off first with
wandering around a casino for 14 hours a day with
blisters on your feet. It went off again with the constant
mention of how smart he is.

I've no doubt he's doing something, but it's not DI or
'wonging in' at BJ. It's some kind of comps hustle,
mostly, with bottom feeding machine hustling thrown
in. There are lots of these guys in the Midwest, barely
eeking out a living because they don't want to get
a real job. They brag about huge BR's, but are always
close to being broke. They do network with others
or they'd be killing hunting and killing each other in
parking lots. I guess this is AP'ing, a bottom rung of'
it anyway.

What is it then? I'm not even remotely close to broke, those over at BJTF know that. I even made a post over there about shoes because of the blisters. I use all aspects of AP as a whole, short of wheel bias on roulette because I don't think it truly exists in todays modern casinos, and I don't believe the money could be worth the time even if it did exist in the slightest degree.

Those guys you speak of in the midwest, I know most of them. Almost exactly as you described. I've written about these guys before, and ultimately they are competition, but less effective. Eventually, when they stop making money because they run out of plays either because they've "killed" them, or because my team is faster and works better, they move on.

As for the blister thing, I wouldn't be hung up on it. Unless you've seen myself, Topeka Tom, or Detroit Phil in your casino, you'd have idea, no mental picture of how fast a "true" machine hustler will move to get the job done, especially in a busy, low competition casino.

Quote: djatc

Most APs I've known aren't really math geniuses, they know just enough to delegate that to someone who is extremely gifted at math. What they do have is the ability to see every angle possible on a promotion or machine. I don't really know how to calculate standard deviations, or most complex math. I can't play most VP at 100% accuracy.

I'll agree with that, slightly. The APs that I know, aren't genius level intellectuals. They are, however, very "bright". They can do mental math very well, if given the "bigger picture" can mentally tabulate a machines "hold" or the profitability of a progressive. The difference between myself and them, is more the fact that I'm a "big picture" guy. I'd say in all honesty, that most of the APs I know and work with, are likely in that 115+ intelligence quotient bracket. They may not know it all, but they can certainly handle the work load. In my experience, what generally separates a man with intelligence and an AP, is their character flaws. Emotional strength, discipline, etc. I can teach just about ANYONE on this earth how to "hustle" a machine as long as they are capable of listening, reasoning, and have discipline. What separates myself from them, however, is the rate at which they learn, reason, and identify these "machine plays".

Getting back to what I said about Intelligence in its relation to being able to make a living, it all affects your ability to make money. A guy who learns to VUX, can probably make $10/hr in an average casino with little competition. However, he might NEVER be able to identify another "play" if he doesn't stop to think about why it works, how it works, and how it might apply towards other machines, and ultimately, I think that makes the difference. Certainly my suggestion of intelligence is misplaced in the realm of numeric number, as it actually applies more towards a common sense factor, of which there really isn't much else to base an individuals capability on, other than perhaps intelligence quotient, so I've always kind of used that as a guideline.

What KJ says, makes much more sense, as "street smarts" though immeasurable, have a lot more to do with your success than being able to calculate pie to 30 digits or greater.

Quote: Exoter175

As for the blister thing, I wouldn't be hung up on it.

It's not the blister thing, it the 'practice your
throws' thing. There's a guy on here that
has a casino craps table in his living room
to practice DI on. He played in casinos
almost every day in Vegas and discovered
the hard way that it doesn't work. You did
your credibility a lot of damage when you
said DI was was part of your daily strategy.

You'll say you're somebody different and you
figured it out. No, you didn't. There are 1000's
of posts here on the subject. It can't be done.

Quote: EvenBob

It can't be done.

"Improbably difficult" and "hundreds of people have tried repeatedly and were unsuccessful so far" are not the same as impossible.

Quote: Dieter

"Improbably difficult" and "hundreds of people have tried repeatedly and were unsuccessful so far" are not the same as impossible.

Yet, it pretty much is. It's not a religion where
belief is enough to make it true.

Quote: EvenBob

It's not the blister thing, it the 'practice your
throws' thing. There's a guy on here that
has a casino craps table in his living room
to practice DI on. He played in casinos
almost every day in Vegas and discovered
the hard way that it doesn't work. You did
your credibility a lot of damage when you
said DI was was part of your daily strategy.

You'll say you're somebody different and you
figured it out. No, you didn't. There are 1000's
of posts here on the subject. It can't be done.

First, you mistake me as someone who cares about credibility. I work 5 days a week, 10-12 hours a day, and my net worth goes up EVERY day. If that isn't the credibility that you seek, then perhaps you're concerned less with credibility, and more with a predisposition that something cannot be done.

You say it can't be done, that's fine. I'm not going to disagree with you on that if you aren't willing to consider every possible outcome and scenario available, certainly if you can't consider all possible variables.

Let me ask you something. Why do you think there are pyramids at the end of a craps table? Why do you think the casino "rules" are for you to hit the back wall?

Then I'll ask you this. Have you ever seen the casino switch dice on a player? I have. Have you ever seen the casino pull the dice from a players hand and pass his roll on to the next guy? I have. Both of those occurrences have happened to me, both in the last 9 months. Once in Vegas at a property I won't name, once in the Midwest at a property I won't name.

Now let me ask you another question. Why do you think they pulled the dice? Why do you think they switched the dice? If I'm a perfectly normal patron not doing anything against the rules, not drinking, not being obnoxious, or anything else, why would these things happen to me, and only me?

Let me go a step further, why would there be an internal memo at the property about me, including my photograph if I did nothing wrong?

What is it that they are so "Worried" and "Worked up" about, that they take these measures and steps against me?

I'd like you to answer those questions with honesty, as I have done with yours.

The casino obviously saw something about your throw that threw a red flag.

Probably thought you were cheating somehow.