keodark
keodark
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September 15th, 2015 at 4:21:58 PM permalink
Hello,

Does anyone know of a resource that shows (or at least estimates) the average play speed (if used) and house advantage % used by casinos when rating play for comps for each of the popular table and machine games? Note that I'm not looking for the house advantage when using basic strategies, which could be (very) different, depending on the game.

In particular, I'm looking for those numbers for Mandalay Bay, for the purpose of estimating comp returns based on possible combinations of games and betting amounts.

Also, does anyone know if casinos use flat house advantage numbers for each table game, or if they estimate it for each player based on skill (basic strategy player vs. drunk dumbass, for example) when rating? If so, is that true of all table games?

Thanks!
Wizardofnothing
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September 15th, 2015 at 5:20:02 PM permalink
Anyone that truly knows this would not post it in here as it would be tremendously valuable
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
TwoFeathersATL
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September 15th, 2015 at 5:24:07 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Anyone that truly knows this would not post it in here as it would be tremendously valuable


Which, of course, makes this site less valuable.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
keodark
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September 15th, 2015 at 5:24:29 PM permalink
Ah, thanks, that explains why I haven't been able to find it readily online.

A better question, then, is has anyone seen a reasonably complete list of /estimates/ of those numbers, per game?
ahiromu
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September 15th, 2015 at 5:36:45 PM permalink
https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/

In particular, the list at the very bottom (expected hands per hour is JUST as important as house edge). Take these numbers as a guideline only
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keodark
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September 15th, 2015 at 5:43:00 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/

In particular, the list at the very bottom (expected hands per hour is JUST as important as house edge). Take these numbers as a guideline only



I wasn't looking for actual house edge with basic strategies, as mentioned in the OP, but thanks for the link - I'm guessing that's the best info I'm going to find. Cheers!
Wizardofnothing
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September 15th, 2015 at 5:45:19 PM permalink
Takes lots of time and money and connections and networks to get what you are looking for. Most would never share and those that would- only with a select few
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
waasnoday
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September 16th, 2015 at 11:43:37 AM permalink
Quote: keodark

Hello,

Does anyone know of a resource that shows (or at least estimates) the average play speed (if used) and house advantage % used by casinos when rating play for comps for each of the popular table and machine games? Note that I'm not looking for the house advantage when using basic strategies, which could be (very) different, depending on the game.

In particular, I'm looking for those numbers for Mandalay Bay, for the purpose of estimating comp returns based on possible combinations of games and betting amounts.

Also, does anyone know if casinos use flat house advantage numbers for each table game, or if they estimate it for each player based on skill (basic strategy player vs. drunk dumbass, for example) when rating? If so, is that true of all table games?

Thanks!



Can't answer a lot but I can speak on a couple of the these items. At my place of work the skill of player is not taken into account for determining comps. There are different multipliers for table (each game), slots, and poker. The amount earned is mainly determined by the theo win/loss and a management determined multiplier. I can not give out the multiplier in use and it probably would not do you a lot of good at any other place. Each casino hands out comps at different levels and does not share that information with their competitors. Play speed is used and we use a three year average for an estimate. Although the slot machines have various hold percentages a flat theo is used for comp calculations. With the level of repotting available now a days, I would think some casinos would vary the amount of comp earned depending on the slot machine's theo setting but this is suspicion only and it is not in effect at the place I audit.
Romes
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September 16th, 2015 at 12:21:29 PM permalink
I can give you the basics and generics that have been posted on this board many times...

For table games, in general, your comps follow the following formula: Comp = EL * 20%, where EL (Expected Loss) = (NumHands)*(AvgBet)*(HouseEdge).

A quick example... You're playing a .5% HE blackjack game for 3 hours where you're getting about 80 hands per hour. Your betting is between $10-$100, but on average probably marked about $30. A quick note, almost EVERY CASINO (and I've gotten this from the inside too) marks players anywhere from 1% to 5% for the house edge (pending how poorly they play). For this, I'm going to use a 1% house edge mark (so you get marked as a 'better' player than most). The following shows your Expected Loss and Comps:

EL = (240)*(30)*(-.01) = -$72
COMPS = (108)*(.2) = $14.40

So for your 3 hours of play you could probably get a $15 buffet comped (so long as they has your avg bet marked around $30). This is all wildly dependent from casino to casino. Some might use a base of 1% HE, some might use a base 3% HE. Some might mark 20% of EL as comps, some might mark 10% of EL as comps. I'm speaking in generalities from my experience and what I've heard from others and insiders. In "general" most of them are 20% of EL and about 2% HE (for blackjack).

I would think any machines would be very easy to compute... for CET they give you 1 TC/RC for every $10 coin in (2 hands of $1 single line). So figure your hands per hour/coin in and then figure how many TC/RC you have? RC would be your comps in this scenario. If you're at another place that gives you "slot dollars" simply play for 100 hands at a certain level, figure out your coin in, and check your "slot dollars." this should be quite easy to extrapolate...
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Dieter
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September 16th, 2015 at 12:32:31 PM permalink
Quote: waasnoday

With the level of repotting available now a days, I would think some casinos would vary the amount of comp earned depending on the slot machine's theo setting but this is suspicion only and it is not in effect at the place I audit.



I would not expect that.

That would give slot players a clearer way to guess the RTP of a particular machine.

Even if it's just as easy as "I play this one for $20 until it's gone, I get so much comps - I play this other one, I get less - the other one they must not make as much money on, so I have a better chance to win!"
May the cards fall in your favor.
tongni
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September 16th, 2015 at 4:27:46 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Takes lots of time and money and connections and networks to get what you are looking for. Most would never share and those that would- only with a select few



i don't understand why it's particularly valuable to know the value of a table game for rating purposes. couldn't you just play it for an hour, ask your average bet, see how much you get in express comps, and compare it to other games? express comps generated are a function of theo. if i knew the answer i'd give it to you. CET is very stingy, pinnacle rates you at about 66% of your average bet/hr, and i assume MGM is somewhere in the middle.
DRich
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September 16th, 2015 at 4:48:17 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I would not expect that.

That would give slot players a clearer way to guess the RTP of a particular machine.

Even if it's just as easy as "I play this one for $20 until it's gone, I get so much comps - I play this other one, I get less - the other one they must not make as much money on, so I have a better chance to win!"



Some companies in Nevada, and probably many other places, absolutely do this. Play a 99.7% NSUD and you will earn comps at about 1/4th the speed as if you play 98.9% DDB on the same machine.
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Ahigh
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September 16th, 2015 at 6:10:54 PM permalink
I have seen the personal notebook of someone who works in the pit and showed me how many player points per $5-hour average bet is awarded for each different table game.

As a general rule, the lower the LOWEST theoretical HA% bet on the table, the less comps per dollar bet you will get.

So just because you are betting high house edge bets on the craps table does not mean you are going to get rated better per dollar than if you played the pass line, and in some casinos, they make two mistakes that I know of. Only one of which can be exploited.

Mistake #1: reduced rating when you hedge your bets -- if you bet both red and black and nothing else on a roulette table, some places will rate you at "zero action" because they don't see how they can win (the idiots who make this claim). This is just something to watch out for because if you hedge to try to get player points without gambling they will generally not rate you properly (they will exclude rating from play without sufficient volatility).

Mistake #2: rating free odds bets; this only happens at a few places, and often not every employee at that place can and sometime do rate your action that does not carry a house advantage. So, for example, I have heard of a place that offers 10x odds but will rate up to 2x odds. So if you are getting comp'd according to 1/3rd of your theoretical losses, then you may be able to break even counting losses exploiting this loophole (on average, of course).

All this is just straight theory. And if you are playing just for the points, I suggest you go shopping instead.
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TomG
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September 16th, 2015 at 6:22:37 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

So for your 3 hours of play you could probably get a $15 buffet comped (so long as they has your avg bet marked around $30).



Various Stations casinos used to advertise a buffet comp for only one hour with a $5 average bet -- find a pai gow table with other players and it might only cost you about $2 in ev (tip a few dollars and they may even send you free bets or match play coupons in the mail). I think they'll still usually give breakfast or lunch for an hour with a $10 average.

Plenty of others have similar requirements for cheap meals -- it really doesn't cost the casino much to let you eat there. Unfortunately Mandalay Bay will ask for quite a bit of action -- probably not deviating too much from 20% on theoretical loss

The best thing to do is play for 15 minutes, then ask
teddys
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September 16th, 2015 at 6:24:57 PM permalink
Quote: tongni

and i assume MGM is somewhere in the middle.

MGM casinos are actually quite good for table games -- not great, but not stingy either. It's possible to rack up a bunch of express comps.
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Dieter
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September 16th, 2015 at 9:05:05 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Play a 99.7% NSUD and you will earn comps at about 1/4th the speed as if you play 98.9% DDB on the same machine.



I am reasonably aware of varying comp rates for video poker. I think that most video poker players who understand how to read a paytable and care about comps understand that there are varying levels, and it's often fairly easy to figure out that the comp rates are lower on higher theoretical return games.

I was specifically addressing the "slot machines" (video reel, reel, etc), where there isn't a readily decodable paytable.
May the cards fall in your favor.
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