I think BetiBet-Casino ripped me off!!
I already wrote an E-Mail about it, but then I got the tip that this should be public to prevent others from falling into the same trap, so I'm posting it here.
Yesterday I signed up for "betibet" casino (btw, I'm from Frankfurt / GER) via a Neteller-Offer. The offer was just about "5 Euro for free for some new spin games". It was totally clear that the wagering requirements would be massive and that the chance I would be able to make any money with this were very low.
But in the end (or, lets say, at that point) I gambled the 5 Euro up to Euro 160. The wagering requirements were fulfilled, and the Funds in my Account switched from "Bonus money" to "Cash". On my account history, they call this "adjustment".
I immediately went to the Live Casino Tables, because they looked good, and are (in my opinion) the most fun thing to do in an online casino.
So, I played on for a few hours (I know that you never can play Live dealers with bonus money, so it was pretty clear to me that this was my cash now.), I played Blackjack, gambled it up to a few hundred, went to a different slot machine, hit one or two jackpots and gambled it up to over 1300 Euro!.
I played a few more hands Live Dealer Blackjack and felt pretty crazy about wagering 100 Euro on a hand of blackjack, but whatever. I lost some back, made a sportsbet (also a thing that you normally can't just do) and then made a break of a few hours. I left the account at Euro 1200.
When I logged back in a few hours later, I was shocked to see that my balance was "Euro 20,- Cash". I took a look into the history and saw an "adjustment" made, of "Euro 1180".
So, they left me with 20 Euro, took out all my winnings, and left my status as it is: Cash Player.
Of course I asked support what the heck was going on.
Here is what they had to say:
Quote: BetiBetSupport
The terms and conditions state you are only allowed to bring �20 of the "free fun to play cash" to become real money when you become a "real money player" (fun mode is the status you are playing in prior having made your initial deposit, real money is after having made your initial deposit).
>
> See tnc:
>
> - When a user makes the first deposit (changing his status from fun-player to player), bonus accumulated prior to the first deposit may not exceed 20, where any such additional bonus funds will be removed.
> - After making their first deposit, a fun-player (user that plays for fun) acquires the status of a player (user that plays for real money), getting the right to withdraw funds. Therefore, the winnings obtained when being a fun-player will always be considered as bonuses.
The rest, you better read for yourselves:
Quote: me
thanks for your answer, but that doesn't clear the smoke for me.
The distinction between "fun players" and "real money players" must be a special feature of your site, because I've never heard of a policy like this before.
Of course I meanwhile read through your TOS', but that doesn't help much.
- "[...] a fun-player (user that plays for fun) acquires the status of a player (user that plays for real money), getting the right to withdraw funds." So you implicit that only players playing with bonus money play "for fun"? I always guessed all players play for fun in a casino...
So you basically gave me 5 Euro for free with wagering requirements, then I fulfilled those requirements and you then switched the status of that money from "bonus money" to "cash", but without telling me that it is still bonus money, only to take away all winnings obtained with that money.
Do you think of this as "user-friendly" or "fair play"? Because you seem to care so much about those attributes...
I NEVER got a signal from you stating "hello, you know that this is still not your money, don't you?"
For me, this is the exact opposite of being "fair".
Back to your bonus terms. Right on the top it says "When playing, the user is first using their own deposited funds. Once those funds are spent, they can play using their bonus funds.". This is what I did. I registered, took a bonus, and because my account balance ("funds") was zero, I started using bonus funds and fulfilled the wagering requirements. After that, you changed the status of this money from being "bonus" to being "cash".
So either you are doing this intentionally, or you should strongly consider changing the way your TOS are explained.
One final word about "fair games":
quote:
" In the event of a dispute, all decisions made by the Management will be final."
Not much to say here...
Quote: me again
Sorry that I bring this up again, but since you don't reply anymore, I took the time and read through your TOS once again, carefully.
My transaction log shows this entry:
2015-08-25 19:41:06 adjustment 126.30
This was the time when I had reached 100 percent of the wagering requirements. The status of those funds was then switched to "cash". I immediately switched to Live blackjack, which shouldn't be possible with bonus funds, right?
Then I played slots again, but this time with the EGT provider. I even made a sports bet in between.
In the end, I had a balance of over 1200 Euro, and this was seized with this entry:
2015-08-26 00:49:46 adjustment 1181.61
So my question is: What does adjustment mean in this case? Or should I say cases? Are this two different types of adjustments?
Tonight, I got the final answer:
Quote: Support
Our terms and conditions are very clear; you may only bring �20 free fun play fund to your real money play account.
Kindly refer to:
Am I really so far off here or do they just rip me off? What do you think? I think that it is pretty clear that the log shows two adjustments, the first is changing my account status to "real money player" (without taking out any money) and the second is recognizing the mistake, THEN taking out a lot more money, and letting my account status be what it is.
The question I'm asking is - what had happened if I they had switched my account to cash if I were up at, say, 50, without taking anything out, and what if I had then lost 40. Would they have given me back another 10 Euro to make it 20 again? of Course not!
So, guys, really, you should NOT play there. They are telling me stuff like "it is in the TOS", but what they obviously did is switching my account to Cash play without taking out the winnings first. Then, afer I won a lot more, they realized that they had lost over 1000 to me and they just took it back. At that point without having the TOS anything to do with it.
I can only say: Don't play there. I know, the Live Dealer Section looks nice, but obviously they don't like it when people win.
Regards from Germany
MrTecc
PS: IF you already play there, you should really consider cashing out, because they also don't look very good securitywize...I don't think I need to say more about this here.
Quote: me
You call that clear?
Ok, what about this:
"When a player requests a withdrawal that includes money won through the use of freespins or bonus funds they must first have played the total (cash + bonus) of those funds at designated minimum turnover."
I had completely fulfilled any turnover requirements at this point in time, at 2015-08-25 19:41:06, that's why you made your first "adjudgement" in my payment history. You switched my account to "Cash play".
Otherwise it would't even have been possible for me to instantly switch to the live dealers and even make a sports bet!
You just forgot to took out any winnings over Euro 20. Later, when you recognized that I was a huge winner, you took out over one thousand Euro and called it "adjustment" again. But my status in the lobby didn't change at all.
Where in the TOS can I find something about that second "adjustment", and what exactly was the adjudgement? Besides taking out my won money?
Here is their final reply:
Quote: Support
Hi,
Please understand our bonus terms and conditions; and in par with theses, please note the site terms and conditions.
As your account shows you are from Germany / Netherlands your fun to play account have been closed.
Kind regards
Support
So, now I'm from Germany AND the Netherlands, both at the same time. And of course they finally locked my account, maybe to keep me from backing up my payment history. But they messed that up, too.
And my final reply:
Quote: me
Oh, this is not about your bonus terms, I understand them pretty well.
What I also understand is, that you obviously made a mistake with my account and are not willing to pay the price for it. Instead, you just steal the money.
Believe me, I read your terms a few times now. And it's pretty clear what has happened.
After I had fulfilled the turnover for the free signup cash you switched my account to normal cash play, because my balance was so high that you obviously thought I must have made a deposit. When you later realized that I did not make any deposit so far, you took the chance to take the money back I had meanwhile won.
If you are so sure about your Terms, why don't you answer my simple questions:
What happened, when the first "adjustment" was made? Answer: You switched my account to "cash player".
Is somebody with a "fun player account" allowed to play live casino games? Answer: "No".
But I was.
And now you add the argument that I wasn't egligable to play on your site in the first place, because of my residential status? Maybe you should consider taking such countries out of your dropdown list then.
So you have your focus so much on "fair play" and "security" stuff. Then I suppose this is your definition of "fair"?
And I also suppose that having over 60 bad security holes in my site is your definition of "secure"?
In my opinion, you're wrong both times.
