Marked card found in deck, only that card replaced

I was playing poker at Wheeling Island this weekend and saw something for the first time. During the shuffle the dealer found and pulled a marked card. He did not think there was cheating, just something nicked the paint off a spot. Jh was the card. So he called for the floor. But this is where it gets interesting.

So the floor comes over with the little plastic bags and dealer and floor initial the chain of custody on the bag. What surprised me though was that they just replaced the one card from a donor deck. Floor pulled a deck with the right back color and found J-h, put it in, and the game moved on.

I would have thought the entire deck would be pulled, perhaps put in two bags, one for the bad card and one the rest. Now, the dealer was great and friendly, the whole thing took minimal time. But I had the feeling the place was too cheap to spend what, eighty cents on a new deck? I probably should have asked the dealer as I was sitting close but kind of felt I chatted him up enough on the subject.

Is this normal? Is it a gaming control thing to replace the card and not the deck? Wouldn't an auditor want to see the rest of the deck to verify no dabs or whatever were on any other cards?

Quote: AZDuffman

I was playing poker at Wheeling Island this weekend and saw something for the first time. During the shuffle the dealer found and pulled a marked card. He did not think there was cheating, just something nicked the paint off a spot. Jh was the card. So he called for the floor. But this is where it gets interesting.

So the floor comes over with the little plastic bags and dealer and floor initial the chain of custody on the bag. What surprised me though was that they just replaced the one card from a donor deck. Floor pulled a deck with the right back color and found J-h, put it in, and the game moved on.

I would have thought the entire deck would be pulled, perhaps put in two bags, one for the bad card and one the rest. Now, the dealer was great and friendly, the whole thing took minimal time. But I had the feeling the place was too cheap to spend what, eighty cents on a new deck? I probably should have asked the dealer as I was sitting close but kind of felt I chatted him up enough on the subject.

Is this normal? Is it a gaming control thing to replace the card and not the deck? Wouldn't an auditor want to see the rest of the deck to verify no dabs or whatever were on any other cards?

I have seen this at least a dozen times where I play, mostly on Pai Gow poker. Always just the card they find the flaw on is replaced just as you said.

I've seen that process quite often at many casinos. I like to play PGP, and there are times that the Shufflemaster machine will flash the 'red light' when shuffling a deck. The floor supervisor will be called over and it will be determined that the machine fails on a single card. The card will be bent or ripped, remember that cards are handled by the players in PGP. A replacement card is pulled from a donor deck and play continues. I would guess that this process is quicker than replacing the full deck; card changes in PGP are an elaborate ritual at most casinos. In the long run, the lack of play would cost revenue for the casino.

Quote: AZDuffman

Is this normal?

Yes.

Quote: AZDuffman

Is it a gaming control thing to replace the card and not the deck?

No.

A card can accidentally pick up a stray mark or indentation in a lot of ways, it isn't too terrribly unusual, and this is what is usually done in my experience. Did the poker table there have an auto-shuffler? That is the most common way for a card to get a stray mark on it accidentally, an occasional by-product when an automatic shuffling machine is doing it's thing with the "other" deck between hands.

A somewhat off-topic but maybe related little story: Near the end of a long session of playing poker I squeezed my hole cards pre-flop to see I'd been dealt: a three of spades... and, a three of spades. I'm not a drinker, and after doing a triple take reassured myself that I was not hallucinating. I was dealt a "suited pair" you might say. And what I said was "stop the action, call the floor please, we have a problem, I need to show him something." After showing him my "hand" what the floor said, of course, was "dead hand, take back the bets." I strongly suspect how that happened was most likely a mistake made replacing a bad card when making up the deck. In theory the dealer should still catch it when spreading out the deck before beginning to deal, but some are more diligent and observant than others.

In a shoe game, just the card will be replaced because it's not feasible to replace the whole shoe.

In a single-deck game, it depends. They may replace just the card, or they may replace the whole deck. It is wiser for them to replace the whole deck because when replacing one card, you have one shiny new card mixed in with 51 more worn cards, making it easier to spot. Could be dangerous for the house if that card is an Ace or something.

Replace the one card. That's the procedure I've seen in AC, Vegas, Pennsylvania.

Quote: Deucekies

It is wiser for them to replace the whole deck because when replacing one card, you have one shiny new card mixed in with 51 more worn cards, making it easier to spot. Could be dangerous for the house if that card is an Ace or something.

I agree, but the house, as an AP, wants as many rounds per hour as they can get.

Replacing a card is faster than replacing the whole deck.

In my experience, the cards are changed often enough* so that it's hard to discern a difference between the single new card and the remainder of the deck.

The experience I have - the dealer calls the floor, the floor inspects the card and makes a decision to play on or replace.
If the decision is to replace, the card is set either next to the discard tray or at the bottom of the discard tray, so it can be readily found.
The floor calls the card room. A suitable replacement card is located (same size, same face style, same back style/color).
Someone - either an alternate floor, or a security - runs the replacement card from the card room to the table. This is usually done in a baggie.
They wait for the next time there is not a hand in play (so all cards are discarded), they lay the two cards face down so the camera can confirm the backs are the same, they flip the cards over so the camera can confirm the faces are the same, the damaged card is cancelled on the spot, bagged, and removed from the pit. The replacement card is placed in the discard tray (house procedure changes if it's at the bottom, top, or middle).
Play continues.

That stops the game for maybe 20 seconds. Replacing the deck takes at least 3 minutes around here, with the 4 fans for inspection, wash, and hand-shuffle (to be followed by a machine shuffle).

*Every 2 hours on pitch BJ, every 16-24 hours on shoe BJ (although, some busier houses I hear do 8 hours), and every 24 hours at most on most carnival games.

Quote: Dieter

I agree, but the house, as an AP, wants as many rounds per hour as they can get.

And, at least at poker tables, so do many of the players. The goofy guy calling for a "new setup" whether to change his luck or because of an imaginary issue with the cards is almost universally despised for pointlessly slowing the game. But politely despised by smiling faces if folks are smart about it, because he's usually going to be a major donator of chips who goes by the informal nickname of "Rebuy."

Playing poker at the Rivers this same thing happened. they handled it the same way with just replacing 1 card.

I think this is very common in poker rooms. I haven't played a ton of poker and I have seen it more than once. Often times a player will point out a marked card and ask to have it replaced. One thing to note is that at the house-banked table games the cards are standard cardboard and new decks are frequently put into play. Poker rooms typically use plastic cards that are more durable but they are also more expensive. They would not want to throw out an entire deck just because there is one marked card.

Quote: AZDuffman

I was playing poker

Separate room; separate card control, separate policies, separate cards than the "real casino" has. Poker room: anything that is rejected by a machine or gets oh, what was that phrase: bent, spindled, whatever is individually replaces as play continues.

Floor might fan the deck to see if any spots move but usually its an individual card, not a marked deck. Players get frustrated and everyone at the table has picked up on a crimped card by the time someone speaks up.


In the "real casino"... no begging and borrowing at all, ever. The entire deck is either in play or its plastic bagied and signed twice..
Casino card decks are usually different manufacturers than poker room card decks. Different storage and handling rules. Floor will definitely fan a deck to look in upper corners for moving spots, but entire deck is kept together and no substitutions permitted.

Don't most poker rooms use kem card's? I believe they are in the $30 range per deck I'm sure it varies especially if you buy them in bulk. That's the number one reason to just replace a messed up card.

Quote: AxelWolf

Don't most poker rooms use kem card's? I believe they are in the $30 range per deck I'm sure it varies especially if you buy them in bulk. That's the number one reason to just replace a messed up card.

I said cost isn't the reason, but I had no idea they could cosy that much. I figured a fee bucks at most. If they really do cost 30 then that may be a reason.

Quote: GWAE

I said cost isn't the reason, but I had no idea they could cosy that much. I figured a fee bucks at most. If they really do cost 30 then that may be a reason.

I would have to think they get them a little cheaper than that if they are bought in bulk. If not, holy cow.

Quote: GWAE

I said cost isn't the reason, but I had no idea they could cosy that much. I figured a fee bucks at most. If they really do cost 30 then that may be a reason.

Just looked at their site. $30 for a deck of cards? That is insane.

In other news, thanks for all the replies. I had no idea this was normal nor that a deck could cost that much.

Quote: Deucekies

I would have to think they get them a little cheaper than that if they are bought in bulk. If not, holy cow.

I would assume so, but even at half that, it's expensive. Next time you play poker take a second and notice the quality.

I have seen off shift dealers sitting at empty tables sorting through boxes of cards to make good "sets". I think the house puts these "Frankenstein" decks back into play to save money.

Quote: AxelWolf

I believe they are in the $30 range per deck

Gotta cover those legal and penalty costs for all the lawsuits over screwed-up packages of playing cards. Right, Golden Nugget?

Quote: SanchoPanza

Gotta cover those legal and penalty costs for all the lawsuits over screwed-up packages of playing cards. Right, Golden Nugget?

I not sure how edge sortable kem's are, they are normally surrounded by a border. but I'm sure anything can be off center. It makes me wonder if a few sharp poker players have noticed marked cards during play, obviously you couldn't see something valuable each time, but even knowing 1 card in key hands with a neighbor could be significant, you know they don't or do have x.
Add in legitimate skill and you have a deadly combination.

Well, yeah. This is news? That is exactly what is done. And they are not "off shift" when doing that. They are very on shift when they are there working as a 'brush' or sitting at a 'dead spread' or performing other tasks while hoping for another game to start. Is there supposed to be something wrong with this? What in the world is "Frankenstein" about it? Does someone want them to throw out a deck whenever any of them gets dented? Why, for cryin' out loud? There is no sensible reason to do so, it would not benefit anybody, which is why nobody does.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I have seen off shift dealers sitting at empty tables sorting through boxes of cards to make good "sets". I think the house puts these "Frankenstein" decks back into play to save money.

KEM is not the only brand commonly in use, by the way. You'll see Copag is also used a lot.

Quote: AxelWolf

wonder if a few sharp poker players have

Someone who thinks that way is NEVER a "sharp poker player." Scumbags like that do exist, I'm unfortunately acquainted with a few, and such sleazy gutter dwelling dirtball individuals are always chronic losers.

What a "sharp poker player" does is bring what he may think he sees to the attention of the dealer and/or floor, so they can look at it and decide if they need to correct it before it is used again.

Quote: DrawingDead

Someone who thinks that way is NEVER a "sharp poker player." Scumbags like that do exist, I'm unfortunately acquainted with a few, and such sleazy gutter dwelling dirtball individuals are always chronic losers.

You might be surprised how some of the old time greats got their start.

Ah yes, I'd be surprised, and AxelWolf would surely know all about it, as always, even if he can't spell it and use it in a sentence. From his expert poker play in places that rarely have poker games. Tell us more, by all means. We await your instruction on the matter, from your deep trove of knowledge of poker greats.

Quote: DrawingDead

Ah yes, I'd be surprised, and AxelWolf would surely know all about it. From his poker play in places that don't have poker games. Tell us more.

I have no cue what you mean about my play in places that don't have poker rooms???

Do some digging and you can come to your own concussions.

I do have one name for you. Russ Hamilton.

Fine, Russ Hamilton is indeed a notorious thief, proven beyond doubt 6-7 yrs. ago, admitted by him 2 yrs. ago, and known to all, by ripping-off people online through the rigged software at UltimateBet along with the rest of the den of thieves that ran UB. He is also neither "old-time" nor have I ever before heard him described as a "poker great" but I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. Last I heard of him he was still trying to play live occasionally in places that would let him, and having a hard time finding places where he could.

UltimateBet, by the way, was "regulated" and very much intertwined with the supposed "Kahnawake Gaming Commission" which is a phony "tribal" outfit that also is the supposed "regulatory" body for other more current online enterprises. Some inquisitive people here might like to note that fact and take notice of where and with whom any online outfit they are thinking of getting involved with has their fictional location.

There are little teams of cheats from time to time in live poker rooms around Las Vegas. Not common, but they do exist. For a while. I was tangentially involved in seeing to it that one of them was busted. They have easier ways of knowing what cards are in play. Haven't yet encountered or heard of one that was very good at that, or much of anything.

I think I read a while back that Russ waa playing in florida.

Quote: GWAE

I think I read a while back that Russ waa playing in florida.

I heard that as well, several years ago, like about 5 yrs. There was a story about him getting verbally torn a new one when trying to play at Gulfstream, and him melting down into a simmering mess of "f*yous & c*sucking mudderf*ers." I think it was more recently, but not within the last 2 years, that I was told about him trying to play at MGM Las Vegas, and not being allowed to. Neither of those accounts are first hand things that I saw myself, just what I recall of what I've been told from sources that I choose to think are trustworthy.

Quote: DrawingDead

Fine, Russ Hamilton is indeed a notorious thief, proven beyond doubt 7 yrs. ago and known to all, online through the rigged software at UltimateBet along with the rest of the den of thieves that ran UB. He is also neither "old-time" nor have I ever before heard him described as a "poker great" but I guess that's in the eye of the beholder.

UltimateBet, by the way, was "regulated" and very much intertwined with the supposed "Kahnawake Gaming Commission" which is a phony "tribal" outfit that also is the supposed "regulatory" body for other more current online enterprises. Some inquisitive people here might like to note that fact and take notice of where and with whom any online outfit they are thinking of getting involved with has their fictional location.

There are little teams of cheats from time to time in live poker rooms around Las Vegas. Not common, but they do exist. For a while. I was tangentially involved in seeing to it that one of them was busted. They have easier ways of knowing what cards are in play. Haven't yet encountered or heard of one that was very good at that, or much of anything.

Russ was a WSOP winner and was respected by many, even in the BJ circles, Ill agree he wasn't a great player, but i'm not just referring to him, I know what he was outed for was online, but Ill bet there was live game cheating as well.

Ps I still am lost about what you meant about the no poker rooms comment?

Quote: AxelWolf

Ps I still am lost about what you meant about the no poker rooms comment?

Well Axel, last time you chose to describe me as "stupid" and clueless about how poker should really be played & minimum expectations for appropriate (and intelligently courteous toward recreational players) behavior at the table, you cited your great escapades "tilting" people at HardRock Las Vegas poker room for evidence of your poker prowess. HardRock struggles to get and keep a table going, never has had any significant poker business, and has been practically non-existent since the day it opened. Which is why they are not even in that room, and haven't been for quite a long while.

Quote: Deucekies

I would have to think they get them a little cheaper than that if they are bought in bulk. If not, holy cow.

No casino pays that price. Most Casinos buy a year or two of cards at a time. Depending on the brand it might be anywhere from about $1 a deck at the bottom end and I've seen up to around $7 a deck I think for top end cards.

ZCore13

Quote: jml24

One thing to note is that at the house-banked table games the cards are standard cardboard and new decks are frequently put into play. Poker rooms typically use plastic cards that are more durable but they are also more expensive. They would not want to throw out an entire deck just because there is one marked card.

The Plastic cards tend to nick the paint easier than standard Playing Cards. On the "design side" this would be immediate cause for change-out. **edit** There were also complaiints IIRC about "chipping" over at 2+2... corners nicked off, splits forming, etc.

Quote: DrawingDead

Well Axel, last time you chose to describe me as "stupid" and clueless about how poker should really be played and minimum expectations for appropriate (and intelligently courteous toward recreational players) behavior at the table, you cited your great escapades "tilting" people at HardRock Las Vegas poker room for evidence of your poker prowess. HardRock struggles to get and keep a table going, never has had any significant poker business, and has been practically non-existent since the day it opened. Which is why they are not even in that room.

Send me a link so I can re-read it. I think you're over exaggerating a bit what I said.Perhaps I didn't convey my message properly. Either way, I apologize if I offended you.


Okay so you're clamming the HRH LV poker room never had any significant business(under-exaggerating)? That may be a big matter of opinion(one I consider wrong and BS) . HRH built one of the coolest poker room I have seen. They had at least 10 tables(possibly 16+), Big screen TV's, private tables, food service, It was more like a club than a poker room, guys actually ordered bottles of booze to the tables. Don't forget the VP.

They ran good promotions including $200 to $300 buy-in tournaments, daily tournaments, free-roll tournaments, big money guarantee tournaments. It was busy as hell and full of action.

They ran a marketing tactic called Trash Talking Tuesday, It was always jam-packed with a huge list when I went. They had 1-2 NL up to 5-10 NL regularly and even higher sometimes. They had a 2/5 game with "mandatory" button straddling $10 to $ 100 and 7 - 2 winner bounties. They had a 1-2 with an button straddle as well. They had various other games, but I didn't pay attention.

Trash talking and slow rolling was encouraged, you could say just about anything you wanted. No race, mom, or legitimate threatening talk was officially allowed but it happened anyway. The games got huge, It felt like a $25-50 NL game sometimes (at least 5-10 NL).

As poker started to fizzle out more (as it did everywhere) they changed management who killed TTT and that really hurt them. The then moved the poker room to a smaller room. Poker was still dwindling. Eventually they added poker tables to the pit. However Friday and Saturday nights it was still a good game even attracting some UFC fighters. I haven't been in months so I can't tell you if they even have poker left there.

On many occasions I have kept games rolling past sunrise by using various tactics at many casinos. I just did this a few weeks ago. Another member of the forum frequently visits that casino, he was shocked the they had a game still going in the AM. I had no clue that wasn't normal. I don't want you to take my word for it, I want you to talk with Various members/players I have played poker with. Then I want you to come with me for a night of poker. We can visit various different poker rooms and you can talk to dealers, supervisors and players I have played with. Make you're own conclusion. If nothing else, I guarantee you will hear some crazy stories.

Quote: 98Clubs

The Plastic cards tend to nick the paint easier than standard Playing Cards. On the "design side" this would be immediate cause for change-out. **edit** There were also complaiints IIRC about "chipping" over at 2+2... corners nicked off, splits forming, etc.

Here is another question. Those shufflers in the poker room, and at BJ for that matter, do they require the higher quality cards? Will they just eat up the regular deck you buy at WMT?

Quote: DrawingDead

I heard that as well, several years ago, like about 5 yrs..... I think it was more recently, but not within the last 2 years, that I was told about him trying to play at MGM Las Vegas, and not being allowed to. Neither of those accounts are first hand things that I saw myself, just what I recall of what I've been told from sources that I choose to think are trustworthy.

I remember the MGM event about 5 years ago. I thought he was already playing (a 1-2 table IIRC) and being chastised by other players because of the newly-discovered UB debacle, and MGM upholding his right to play there anyway. I could be wrong.