Pai Gow Poker - Procedure error at Bellagio?

I was playing Pai Gow Poker at Bellagio this past Thursday evening. They have a community 'dragon hand' that can be bought by all of the players at the table, each player buying in for the amount of his/her bet. The dragon hand is set by the dealer the house way, since multiple players could be involved.

All the players at the table set their hands. They decide whether or not to buy the dragon hand. Then dealer sets her hand before setting the dragon hand!

An incident happened causing me to post this. I, and one other at the table, set our hands and decided to buy the dragon hand. The dealer's hand was a Pai Gow, A-K-J-X-X-X-X. So she set A high on the bottom and K-J on top. Then she turned over the dragon hand: 6-6-5-5-Q-7-2. (no straight, no flush). Rather than splitting the pair for the win, she put Q-7 on top, claiming that it was 'house way'. Instead, the dragon hand was a push.

Now, an argument could be made by the mathematicians on this site as to whether the Q-7 should be correct play. I'm more curious as to why the Bellagio has the dealer set the banker hand for all to see before setting the dragon hand. Shouldn't the dragon hand be set first?

Maybe because it's understood and disclosed that the dragon hand is set the house way that it doesn't matter. But it seems that the order the hands are set just doesn't seem to be right. Anyone else who knew what the dealer/banker hand is would set their hand for the win!

I've never seen the Bellagio house way, but I checked four of the house ways I do have, and three of them would have done as the Bellagio did and not split the pairs, because both pairs were sixes or less. According to my two pair strategy, splitting them would have been the better play.

The order of setting the hands doesn't matter mathematically. I don't see any legitimate dispute here.

I noticed a similar weird thing too and posted about it regarding Baccarat, where the set rules for the dealer will mean making the Banco hand lose, taking another card, when it had already won. So it is just something that plays out in Casinos due to the need to have these House Ways, which I think I can see is necessary. The Wizard has to be right, technically there is no foul here.

In the case you cite, it would give a feeling of outrage to see it if you didnt understand the bit about House Way. You're right, maybe it makes to set the Dragon Hand first, especially for some folk who would become convinced they got screwed on purpose.

Did anyone "lose it" over this?

Although I play Pai Gow Poker, the Dragon hand is not something I've seen before. But, based on what I read here, I agree with the Wiz that it doesn't matter which is set first, since both are set 'House Way'.

HOWEVER, I agree with you that the Dragon hand should have been set before the dealer hand, and here's why:

If a player is unsure about their own hand, and wants the dealer to set the hand for them, it is done before exposing the dealer's cards.

The Dragon hand should be thought of as a player that needs help every time.

Therefore, the sequence should be that players set their hands first, then the dealer helps any players that request it, then the Dragon hand, and LAST the dealer hand is set.

(The exception would be when a player needs help during a hand that another player is banking. Since the player/banker does NOT need to set his hand house way, the procedure is for him to set his hand before exposing the hand of the player that needs help. So in that case, the sequence is other players set their hands, the player/banker set his hand without exposing it, the dealer helps the players that need help, the Dragon hand is set, then the player/banker hand is exposed.)


The point is, there is a reason for the sequence, and that sequence should dictate that in the hand you describe, the hands were set out of order. But since both were House Way, no foul occurred.

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If you question whether the dealer set the Dragon hand, or their own hand, correctly, you should be able to ask to see the House Way rules. It probably won't be a take-away copy, but still something you can see.

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Quote: ddloml

I, and one other at the table, set our hands and decided to buy the dragon hand.

Is that right?

You get to see your own cards before deciding to bet on the Dragon hand?

While I don't know how having the knowledge of one hand (or even several hands if playing multiple hands and/or peeking at neighbors) can help, it just seems counter-intuitive to be given that option after seeing your cards.

After all, when playing multiple hands, a player is required to set the hand with the biggest bet first. So although such knowledge seems irrelevant, it's not so irrelevant to the casino!

I agree with ddloml that they should be setting the dragon hand first, even if for no other reason than to remove the appearance of impropriety when the dealer sets a two-pair hand so that the house wins, when splitting the pairs would have resulted in a house loss.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

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Is that right?

You get to see your own cards before deciding to bet on the Dragon hand?

Yes, that is right.

As a player, I like the order that the Bellagio uses. My own hand is resolved when the dealer shows his/her cards, then the dragon hand is resolved later when the dragon hand is exposed. If the dragon hand is set first, then both my hand and the dragon hand will be resolved simultaneously when the dealer exposes his/her cards. I like the sequential nature of the Bellagio's system, with two separate opportunities to win.

I guess its kinda like why I prefer to have double-downs dealt down in blackjack. I get one opportunity to win if the dealer busts, then another opportunity when my final card is exposed. More suspense = more fun.

Papa -

Your two separate resolutions makes sense for the emotional aspect, but still seems to violate standard procedure.

It would make even more sense if they resolve the bets separately as well. Do they?

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I too like double downs dealt down.

About 8 years ago, I was at a table at Gold Coast where the dealer was taking a lot of liberties, including dealing double downs down. It was screwing with my head because it wasn't proper procedure, although I did enjoy it more. I.E. Emotionally it was better.

I haven't seen it in a long time, but there used to be a "house way" marker that a player could request. A player could request that their own hand be set according to the house way, and the dealer would place this chip on their face down hand. IIRC, the dealer would set their own hand first, and set the players hand in proper turn as the players' hands were being exposed. If I am remembering correctly, it sounds like this dragon hand is being played in a similar fashion.

I've never seen the dragon hand played in this manner. Whenever I've seen it, the dragon hand is offered in turn to each player at the table, and only one player can claim it. He/she then sets the dragon hand themselves, after they've set their own hand and before the dealer exposes. The player could set the dragon hand in any way they chose (i.e., house way was not applicable).

I would opt to play the dragon hand when I was fairly certain that my primary hand would result in a push.

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Yes, the type of hand I have helps determine whether I buy the dragon. If I have a strong hand, I probably won't buy it, trusting that my hand to win. If I have a weak hand, then I'll usually buy it in order to win back what I might lose. Also, if the players are friendly and talkative, you can get a feel for how many good hands or Aces are in play. The more Aces the players have, the less available for the dealer's hand, and so I sometimes take a flyer on the dragon as well.

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Quote: odiousgambit

I noticed a similar weird thing too and posted about it regarding Baccarat, where the set rules for the dealer will mean making the Banco hand lose, taking another card, when it had already won. So it is just something that plays out in Casinos due to the need to have these House Ways, which I think I can see is necessary. The Wizard has to be right, technically there is no foul here.

In the case you cite, it would give a feeling of outrage to see it if you didnt understand the bit about House Way. You're right, maybe it makes to set the Dragon Hand first, especially for some folk who would become convinced they got screwed on purpose.

Did anyone "lose it" over this?

No, it was the Bellagio after all; there's a certain amount of decorum there. I noticed the perceived 'error' and asked the dealer why she didn't set the dragon hand to win. "That's not house way", was her reply. The other player and I just shook our heads and play continued.

I have seen two different types of "dragon" hands at Pai Gow Poker Tables:

1) The table only seats 5 people. The dragon hand is a completely separate hand, ie, a "phantom" 6th person. In this occasion, bets are available for people to bet on the dragon hand. I've seen both styles where the bet on the dragon hand has to be made before the hands are dealt, and also where one can choose afterwards if one wants to bet on the dragon hand.

2) The table seats 6 people, as a standard PaiGow Poker table. The first seat is sequence that is unoccupied becomes the dragon hand. After all players have been dealt and allowed to set their hands, the option goes around the table for a person to elect to make an additional wager for the dragon hand. There is a marker which indicates who at the table has the first option to choose to play the dragon hand. This marker then rotates around the table giving everybody a fair shot at playing the dragon hand.

In almost all cases, the amount of the dragon bet has to be equal to the amount of your own wager. In some circumstance, I have seen where people are allowed to bet less than their own wager, but at least the table minimum. I have never seen a circumstance where a player is allowed to bet more than their own wager.

In my experience, I have seen people who will always play the dragon hand. I've also seen where people will only play the dragon hand if their own hand was bad, such as a Pai Gow. I think the reasoning on this is that they feel their own hand is pretty bad, so why not try and balance it out with a possible winning dragon hand.

The few times that I've played the dragon hand has been the exact opposite. If my hand is good, and I have a reasonable assurance that I'm going to win, then playing the dragon hand will result in my breaking even (sort of, considering the commission), and or with a possibility of winning even more.

Logically speaking, if you are given the option of playing the dragon hand after seeing your hand, and through conversation at the table, knowing what pretty much all the other players at the table have, then you might open up a mathematical possibility that the dragon hand is stronger or weaker than normal. However, since the cards remaining in the deck could be equally divided between the dragon hand and the banker's hand, I'm not sure if this is really going to give you an advantage or not.

Quote: PapaChubby

I haven't seen it in a long time, but there used to be a "house way" marker that a player could request. ....

Well, in that case, the procedure discussed in the first post makes more sense.

On this dragon hand topic...

At most casinos I play at the player may set the dragon hand to his own hand setting, requiring the dealer to expose his hand last. It's bad "customer service" to gamblers to force them to set their hands to the house way when they may want to play their hands as they see fit. Pai Gow House ways are often weak, because they have to be easy enough for dealers to implement rapidly in a production casino environment.

A couple of points about this thread:

1. I'm not familiar with allowing all players to buy the dragon hand, but if the rule is that the dragon hand has to be set by the dealer according to the house way, it doesn't matter whether she set her hand or the dragon hand first. I can understand that it might seem more proper to set the dragon first (which is how I would be inclined to do it), but either way, there is going to be room for controversy. (It's possible that the dealer in this case just goofed and forgot to set the dragon before opening her own hand -- even at the Bellagio, the dealers are human, and it's easy for a dealer to forget there's a dragon hand to be dealt with -- a common error that I've made a lot.)

2. I don't know the Bellagio's house way, but at another MGM Resorts property I am very familiar with, the house way would call for keeping the two small pair together, as the dealer did here.

3. In any case, at every casino I've ever dealt, it is standard written procedure that "the written house way will be shown to a player on request" (or similar words to the same effect). No, they won't give you a copy of it to take home, and the copy they show you may be virtually undecipherable, but they will (or at least should) always have a written copy on hand to settle any beefs like this. If you feel that the dealer has set the community dragon hand, or the dealer's own hand, incorrectly, you are ALWAYS entitled to ask to see the written house way to verify that everything is being done according to the rules. The dealer NEVER has discretion to vary from the house way. Again, mistakes happen, but there are procedures in place to correct any mistakes that are caught, and dealers do get sanctioned for screwing up on the house way. Ninety-nine percent of the time (or more), you are not being cheated -- deliberately or otherwise.