onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:07:00 PM permalink
I guess you have to buy the book to find out. I don't reject the premise of the book and would find addiction by design to be believable. The author of the book seems quite competent and knowledgeable being able to stick to the known facts, so I'm wondering about this.
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AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:09:55 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Also if they altered the volatility what would be equal? Would something that's 98.3714% payback be equal to something that's 98.3711% payback?



It is certainly possible to change variance but have the expectation be the same (exactly the same, not with rounding).
tringlomane
tringlomane
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:11:16 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Also if they altered the volatility what would be equal? Would something that's 98.3714% payback be equal to something that's 98.3711% payback?



It's a very difficult thing to do in video poker without changing the payback. It naturally exists in full-pay deuces wild though.

5h, 6s, 8h, 9h, Kc is an example.

You can play optimally and go for either 5h, 8h, 9h or 5h, 6s, 8h, 9h. Both give the same EV. The straight flush draw is obviously higher variance though than just the straight draw.

For slots, if the casino is legally allowed to change win probabilities while the game is actively being played (it's not legal in NV), then it's not too hard. Here's a simplified example. If 1% of wins give 100 credits and another 1% of wins give 20 credits, then delete those paybacks in exchange for a 2% chance of winning 60 credits instead.
RealizeGaming
RealizeGaming
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August 7th, 2014 at 5:51:44 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

What about something like winning streak poker where you're awarded a free ride? Couldn't they increase the chances of getting a free ride at a lower level and decrease the chances of getting a free ride at a higher level to retain the same payback percentage and make it less volatile?



Interesting point, but i thought the "free ride" feature was truly random and it isn't influenced by wins or losses.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:02:44 PM permalink
Quote: RealizeGaming

Interesting point, but i thought the "free ride" feature was truly random and it isn't influenced by wins or losses.



I am pretty sure that it would be illegal to do this (at least in Nevada). The author of the article is probably confused.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:47:54 PM permalink
Quote: BioProf

And article in vox.com today (www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5976927/slot-machines-casinos-addiction-by-design) seems to be a re-hash of Natasha Dow Schull's 2012 book.

The article states:
"...some video (slot) machines actually make internal adjustments if they notice that a player is on a losing streak and is reaching their 'pain point'. This has to be done carefully it's illegal for casinos to change the odds in a game once a player has started playing. But, [Shull] says, casinos can reduce the volatility of a game in a way that still preserves the overall payback percentage. That's technically still legal."

This leaves me with a few questions for The Wiz or for anyone else who is knowledgeable.

1) Does anyone have real facts that such alteration of volatility actually occurs? If so, which casino corporations practice it?

2) Is alteration of volatility illegal in any state or province?

3) Would it be possible to change the volatility of video poker considering a) fixed pay tables and b) the supposedly honest deal from a 52 card deck each hand? I can't imagine how it could occur, but I'm not spending a lot of brain time on it.

Thanks to all.

At the risk of sounding Bob like. without giving details exactly how they can legally do this and I prefer to keep it to myself.

On newer slots only ( disregard standard IGT Double diamond slots or Bally s Blazing 7ns type machines ) I say YES some do. Its probably not in the way you are thinking.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2014 at 6:47:54 PM permalink
Quote: BioProf

And article in vox.com today (www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5976927/slot-machines-casinos-addiction-by-design) seems to be a re-hash of Natasha Dow Schull's 2012 book.

The article states:
"...some video (slot) machines actually make internal adjustments if they notice that a player is on a losing streak and is reaching their 'pain point'. This has to be done carefully it's illegal for casinos to change the odds in a game once a player has started playing. But, [Shull] says, casinos can reduce the volatility of a game in a way that still preserves the overall payback percentage. That's technically still legal."

This leaves me with a few questions for The Wiz or for anyone else who is knowledgeable.

1) Does anyone have real facts that such alteration of volatility actually occurs? If so, which casino corporations practice it?

2) Is alteration of volatility illegal in any state or province?

3) Would it be possible to change the volatility of video poker considering a) fixed pay tables and b) the supposedly honest deal from a 52 card deck each hand? I can't imagine how it could occur, but I'm not spending a lot of brain time on it.

Thanks to all.

At the risk of sounding Bob like. without giving details exactly how they can legally do this and I prefer to keep it to myself.

On newer slots only ( disregard standard IGT Double diamond slots or Bally s Blazing 7ns type machines ) I say YES some do. Its probably not in the way you are thinking.

I have played a few.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
djatc
djatc
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August 7th, 2014 at 8:14:32 PM permalink
I just read this article and found this discovery of "volatility setting" disgusting. Sometimes I feel a must hit by does this towards the dollar amount where it is break even to an advantage to play.
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AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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August 8th, 2014 at 11:14:17 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

I just read this article and found this discovery of "volatility setting" disgusting. Sometimes I feel a must hit by does this towards the dollar amount where it is break even to an advantage to play.



Are you kidding or serious here?

That is obviously not true. If it was then you would have a much larger advantage, and at a lower meter amount too.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 8th, 2014 at 12:15:10 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Are you kidding or serious here?

That is obviously not true. If it was then you would have a much larger advantage, and at a lower meter amount too.

Key words: Sometimes I feel.

As I said, there are machines that Act in a way that would make feel this way. If you lose to much the machine will give some back.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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