Ties Win Blackjack
I was wondering if the game has a slight player edge under these rules below?
Also, would you use the 'normal blackjack' early surrender strategy for this version of blackjack, if not then what would be the best surrender strategy to use?
The rules are the same as blackjack except as noted below.
6 Decks.
All ties pay 1 to 2.
Player may only hit and stand.
Winning blackjack pays even money.
Dealer Stands on S17
Early Surrender against 10 & A.
see: https://wizardofodds.com/games/ties-win-blackjack/
using the figures from the link above,
The base player edge is - 0.233%
The change in edge with the early surrender rule*** + 0.63%, (Early surrender against ace + 0.39% and Early surrender against ten + 0.24%)
The adjusted player edge is: + 0.397%
***According to the rule variations, @: https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
thank in advance
All Ties Win Half Version #1
After each hand played, a new 6 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays even money. Dealer stands on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Early surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
All Ties Win Half Version #2
After each hand played, a new 8 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays even money. Dealer hits on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Late surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
All Ties Win Half Version #3
After each hand played, a new 4 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays 21/20. Dealer hits on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Early surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
That is a huge house edge, which is why they can afford to give you some back on 'good' rules. Even after the ties pay 1/2 and early surrender, it will still be a big house edge.
Quote: kewljWait! Winning blackjacks pay even money is a real bad rule. Makes the beginning house edge much larger than what you are saying.
That is a huge house edge, which is why they can afford to give you some back on 'good' rules. Even after the ties pay 1/2 and early surrender, it will still be a big house edge.
I don't think this is right. His beginning house edge seems correct.
Note that getting half a bet on ties is worth a hell of a lot more than giving up half a bet on every winning blackjack (you get a lot more ties than blackjacks). The lack of splitting and doubling also hurts a lot, of course.
The point about the value of surrender dropping is a good one. I guess you'd have to simulate it to find the actual edge.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI don't think this is right. His beginning house edge seems correct.
Note that getting half a bet on ties is worth a hell of a lot more than giving up half a bet on every winning blackjack (you get a lot more ties than blackjacks). The lack of splitting and doubling also hurts a lot, of course.
The point about the value of surrender dropping is a good one. I guess you'd have to simulate it to find the actual edge.
Yeah maybe you are right. I just know that BJ pays even money jumped out at me. I didn't sim the game or anything.
Quote: HoleintheAceI noticed that game also. My thinking is that winning half a bet on ties likely makes it incorrect to ever surrender, nullifying the value that rule would normally add.
Sorry about the late reply, been sick.
You are probably at least partly right, i would like to know what the house/player edge % would be for 'perfect strategy' for this game, i don't know if the strategy i posted for normal blackjack early surrender was perfectly correct but i think it would be a good starting point for working out a surrender strategy.
Most likely, the correct play would be to early surrender 16, 15 maybe 14 against a 10 and A ,
but the correct strategy decision MAY be to stand rather than surrender on Hard 17 vs A, since the dealer stands on soft 17???
Quote: endermikehere are all 3 versions:
All Ties Win Half Version #1
After each hand played, a new 6 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays even money. Dealer stands on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Early surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
All Ties Win Half Version #2
After each hand played, a new 8 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays even money. Dealer hits on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Late surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
All Ties Win Half Version #3
After each hand played, a new 4 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays 21/20. Dealer hits on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Early surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
Version 1 and 3 are the only ones worth trying to work out a 'perfect strategy' for, thank you for posting the games, i should have probably done that...
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI don't think this is right. His beginning house edge seems correct.
Note that getting half a bet on ties is worth a hell of a lot more than giving up half a bet on every winning blackjack (you get a lot more ties than blackjacks). The lack of splitting and doubling also hurts a lot, of course.
The point about the value of surrender dropping is a good one. I guess you'd have to simulate it to find the actual edge.
when you early surrender for 'normal' bj the increase in player edge* (or decrease in house edge) is probably diluted a bit for 'ties win' bj, as you say, but i think everyone can agree it will probably still be correct strategy decision to early surrender Hard 14-16 against a 10 or an A
I would still be keen to know what the increase in player edge* will be from 'correct strategy', would also like to know what the correct strategy would be
* i only like playing games with a 0.20% player edge or better, so that is why i am talking from the player edge point of view, most of the time.
But i think i will believe whoever does a sim^^^ of the rules stated at the start of this post to see if what they say 'seems true'.
sim^^^: we know the player edge is at least -0.233%*** and it's maximum player edge probably can't be more than +0.4%, so any sim figure between those two amounts will most likely be correct.
*** Ties win-half, 6 deck, S17 (See: All Ties Win Half Version #1, if you go to 5dimes website)
also on a related note i have played $100.00 'flat bets' in their practice casino to see if this game is 'fair (from a standard deviation point of view etc)
The trial consist of 1600 bets so far, the first 1000 are in 20 equal betting cycles, and the last 600 bets are in 6 equal cycles.
I have been playing a hybrid style of 'ties-win' basic strategy, and 'normal blackjack' early surrender strategy as stated at the start of this thread
(sorry i know it doesn't look pretty, but read on if are keen on looking at the stats for the start of my trial)
Number of bets --- Profit/(Loss) for those hands
50 --- $600
50 --- $(700)
50 --- $1300
50 --- $250
50 --- $900
50 --- $(250)
50 --- $550
50 --- $(50)
50 --- $350
50 --- $1050
50 --- $1850
50 --- $(950)
50 --- $1200
50 --- $(300)
50 --- $(900)
50 --- $(100)
50 --- $(800)
50 --- $250
50 --- $500
50 --- $500
100-- $(750)
100-- $1200
100-- $1400
100-- $0
100-- $400
100-- $(250)
Total 'profit' of $7250 over 1600 hands, total turnover in $'s is $160,000.
I won't know how to use these figures for Probability of win or probability of loss*^* since i don't know what the edge and the standard deviation is for this version of 'ties-win' blackjack yet.
*^*see link below for working out a rough estimate using normal blackjack S.D. /probability of loss tables etc:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/4/
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe Wizard invented this game. I'd trust his math on it ;-)
You are right, i also trust The Wizard's maths for his versions of ties win, but it doesn't say anything on his site for the 'early surrender' version, at least at this point in time.
see link below (under the rules section):
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ties-win-blackjack/
Quote: niqueclydeThank you,
so you advise me to spread on high TC. Because the casino is not big i must play through all hands.
I found http://www.blackjackinfo.com/free-blackjack-combinatorial-analyzer.php software and instaled it. It provided me with stategy and EV on hiting with 3, 4 or 5 hands with & card charlie And it calculated my EV for every hand. it is a great peace of freeware.
doeas somebody have some imput on that. IT gives me ev with charlie rule of -0.0008137 and positive EV with bonus rule of +0.0062
So now i Know what tu play on example hit all hard 4 card totals of 12 and 13 from 2 to A and hit even 14 on dealers 2.
Charle rule has also good side, if true count goes south house ege drops less because there is more small cards to play. On example on TC of-8 house ege is only 2%
With regards
I was searching around and i think i found what i was looking for, see the web link above (in original) and below:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/free-blackjack-combinatorial-analyzer.php
long story short, according to THIS analyzer,
the best game to play is version 3 (H17) for a player edge of about 0.24%
version 1 (S17) is still worth playing and has a player edge of about 0.16%
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next post will have basic strategy for both games (according to this analyzer), in text format (it will look horrible, but is the only way i know how to paste onto this forum)
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also it would be much appreciated if someone could either vouch for this analyzer or do an independent series of simulations
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key
S = Stand
H = Hit
R = Surrender
RS = Surrender if allowed otherwise stand
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Total Dependent Strategy
All Ties Win Half Version #3
After each hand played, a new 4 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays 21/20. Dealer hits on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Early surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
Net Game EV: 0.248258597990123%
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
4 H H H H H H H H H H
5 H H H H H H H H H H
6 H H H H H H H H H R
7 H H H H H H H H H R
8 H H H H H H H H H H
9 H H H H H H H H H H
10 H H H H H H H H H H
11 H H H H H H H H H H
12 H H H S S H H H H R
13 H S S S S H H H H R
14 S S S S S H H H H R
15 S S S S S H H H R R
16 S S S S S H H H R R
17 S S S S S S S S S RS
18 S S S S S S S S S S
19 S S S S S S S S S S
20 S S S S S S S S S S
21 S S S S S S S S S S
Total Dependent Soft Hands
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
12 H H H H H H H H H H
13 H H H H H H H H H H
14 H H H H H H H H H H
15 H H H H H H H H H H
16 H H H H H H H H H H
17 H H H H H H H H H H
18 S S S S S S S H H H
19 S S S S S S S S S S
20 S S S S S S S S S S
21 S S S S S S S S S S
Split Hands
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
1, 1 H H H H H H H H H H
2, 2 H H H H H H H H H H
3, 3 H H H H H H H H H R
4, 4 H H H H H H H H H H
5, 5 H H H H H H H H H H
6, 6 H H H S S H H H H R
7, 7 S S S S S H H H H R
8, 8 S S S S S H H H R R
9, 9 S S S S S S S S S S
10, 10 S S S S S S S S S S
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Total Dependent Strategy
All Ties Win Half Version #1
After each hand played, a new 6 deck shoe is shuffled and dealt. All ties with dealer pay 1 to 2. Blackjack pays even money. Dealer stands on soft 17. No double down. No splits. Early surrender available. Insurance pays 11/5. Seven Card Charlie is automatic winner.
Net Game EV: 0.162335106292249%
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
4 H H H H H H H H H H
5 H H H H H H H H H H
6 H H H H H H H H H H
7 H H H H H H H H H H
8 H H H H H H H H H H
9 H H H H H H H H H H
10 H H H H H H H H H H
11 H H H H H H H H H H
12 H H H S H H H H H R
13 H S S S S H H H H R
14 S S S S S H H H H R
15 S S S S S H H H R R
16 S S S S S H H H R R
17 S S S S S S S S S RS
18 S S S S S S S S S S
19 S S S S S S S S S S
20 S S S S S S S S S S
21 S S S S S S S S S S
Total Dependent Soft Hands
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
12 H H H H H H H H H H
13 H H H H H H H H H H
14 H H H H H H H H H H
15 H H H H H H H H H H
16 H H H H H H H H H H
17 H H H H H H H H H H
18 S S S S S S S H H S
19 S S S S S S S S S S
20 S S S S S S S S S S
21 S S S S S S S S S S
Split Hands
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
1, 1 H H H H H H H H H H
2, 2 H H H H H H H H H H
3, 3 H H H H H H H H H H
4, 4 H H H H H H H H H H
5, 5 H H H H H H H H H H
6, 6 H H H S H H H H H R
7, 7 S S S S S H H H H R
8, 8 S S S S S H H H R R
9, 9 S S S S S S S S S S
10, 10 S S S S S S S S S S
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