Pai Gow Insurance Dealer's Envy Bonus
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Quote: erblumeWhen playing Emperor's Challenge Pai Gow making the Pai Gow Insurance bet has a House Edge of 7.3475% making it a bad bet. My question is how does the Dealer's Envy Bonus affect the House Edge and does it make the bet worth while. For those of you that have not seen this it works like this. The Player must place a minimum $5 Insurance bet to Qualify for the Dealer's Envy Bonus. By making this minimum bet, if the Dealer has a Pai Gow you win the Bonus.
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Not a mathematician, but a 20+ year paigow player. This looks like a complete sucker bet to me if that paytable is correct. If it's dollar-for-dollar, as in a 5 bet pays 5 with ace high, not 1, maybe. Haven't seen the bet. Where are they playing it?
Let me clarify:
The Dealer Envy bonus is if the Dealer has Pai Gow not the Player.
Ace-High 3 to 1
King-High 5 to 1
Queen-High 6 to 1
Jack-High 15 to 1
Ten-High 25 to 1
Nine-High 100 to 1
Example: If you make a $5 Insurance bet and you have a pair or better your bet is a loser, but in turn, on the same hand, if the Dealer has an Ace High Pai Gow you win the Dealer Envy Bonus of $1.
A similar mechanism to this is the Pai Gow'd bonus, which pays when the dealer has a Pai Gow, and you can beat the dealer's 5-card hand. That payscale usually goes 3/5/7/10/50/100.
Quote: erblumeWhen playing Emperor's Challenge Pai Gow making the Pai Gow Insurance bet has a House Edge of 7.3475% making it a bad bet. My question is how does the Dealer's Envy Bonus affect the House Edge and does it make the bet worth while. For those of you that have not seen this it works like this. The Player must place a minimum $5 Insurance bet to Qualify for the Dealer's Envy Bonus. By making this minimum bet, if the Dealer has a Pai Gow you win the Bonus.
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Like I said in another PGP thread. Do you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
You make a $5 Pai Gow Insurance sidebet, and you get that Dealer's Pai Gow Envy bet free.
Usually Q high is 7-1 not 6-1 in the regular bet BTW. So your house edge should be a little higher.
Anyway, I'm not a math person but that pay table gives you a player advantage on the side bet. So pound it and don't tell anyone. Actually, tell me where it is and delete this thread.
Quote: FatGeezusQuote: erblumeWhen playing Emperor's Challenge Pai Gow making the Pai Gow Insurance bet has a House Edge of 7.3475% making it a bad bet. My question is how does the Dealer's Envy Bonus affect the House Edge and does it make the bet worth while. For those of you that have not seen this it works like this. The Player must place a minimum $5 Insurance bet to Qualify for the Dealer's Envy Bonus. By making this minimum bet, if the Dealer has a Pai Gow you win the Bonus.
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Like I said in another PGP thread. Do you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
In this case, it looks like it's so you can win more money...
Quote: FinsRuleQuote: FatGeezusQuote: erblumeWhen playing Emperor's Challenge Pai Gow making the Pai Gow Insurance bet has a House Edge of 7.3475% making it a bad bet. My question is how does the Dealer's Envy Bonus affect the House Edge and does it make the bet worth while. For those of you that have not seen this it works like this. The Player must place a minimum $5 Insurance bet to Qualify for the Dealer's Envy Bonus. By making this minimum bet, if the Dealer has a Pai Gow you win the Bonus.
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Like I said in another PGP thread. Do you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
In this case, it looks like it's so you can win more money...
Table games always look like you can win more money.
I will ask the question again.
Do you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
Quote: FatGeezusQuote: FinsRuleQuote: FatGeezusQuote: erblumeWhen playing Emperor's Challenge Pai Gow making the Pai Gow Insurance bet has a House Edge of 7.3475% making it a bad bet. My question is how does the Dealer's Envy Bonus affect the House Edge and does it make the bet worth while. For those of you that have not seen this it works like this. The Player must place a minimum $5 Insurance bet to Qualify for the Dealer's Envy Bonus. By making this minimum bet, if the Dealer has a Pai Gow you win the Bonus.
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Like I said in another PGP thread. Do you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
In this case, it looks like it's so you can win more money...
Table games always look like you can win more money.
I will ask the question again.
Do you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
No, table games are always built with a house edge unless a casino has screwed up. It's happened before, and if op is telling the truth, it's happening again.
Quote: FinsruleDo you think that they create these side bets so that you can win more money or are they created so that they can get more of your money faster?
This is interesting. Unless I screwed up my math, this one has a big player's edge:
Assuming a $5 bet is required, AND you win the envy if the dealer simply gets that Pai Gow hand:
1. The house edge on standard Pai Gow Insurance is 7.35% (on pay table 3:1 Ace-high, 5, 7, 15, 25, and 100:1 for the 9-high).
2. The house edge on the adjusted base pay table (player's side) that has envy (but without yet considering the envy) is 9.11% (on pay table 3, 5, 6, 15, 25, 100).
3. But when you add the value of the envy to a $5 insurance bet, you add:
- Ace-high hand: 3:1 + 0.2 envy units ($1 envy of $5 unit bet), or a return of 3.2:1 on an ace-high occurring;
- King high 5:1 +1 unit ($5 envy/$5 unit bet) for a return of 6:1 on a king-high occurring;
- Queen high 6:1 + 2 units ($10/$5 unit bet) for a return of 8:1 on a queen-high occurring;
- Jack high 15:1 + 5 units ($25 /$5 unit bet) for a return of 20:1 on a jack-high occurring;
- Ten-high 25:1 +10 units ($50 /$5 unit bet) for a return of 35:1 on a ten-high occurring;
- Nine-high 100:1 +20 units ($100 /$5 unit bet) for a return of 120:1 on a nine-high occurring.
4. So, you're effectively playing with the following pay table combined: 3.2 : 1, 4:1, 8:1, 20:1, 35:1, and 120:1 for the nine-high, - which has a player's edge of 5.88%. THIS IS HUGE. Screw CARD COUNTING! Bet a nickel on the main bet and a nickel on the Pai Gow insurance. You're golden with a constant every-hand 2.88% player's edge. This here's an ATM machine.
In order for this envy gimmick to work for the casino, they need to start the Envy at: $5 for dealer's queen high, $10 for dealer's jack-high, $25 for dealer's ten high, and $50 for dealer's nine-high, for a house edge (not player's edge) of 3.12%, which is low, but acceptable for the house on $5 action or better.
paying $1 envy for a dealer's ace high, $5 envy for a dealer's king-high, and $10 envy for a dealer's queen-high, etc.... is a huge and miscalculated envy payout, if I am correct (and I may be wrong. it's 9PM and a few beers.)
Hmm.....
Quote: erblumeWhen playing Emperor's Challenge Pai Gow making the Pai Gow Insurance bet has a House Edge of 7.3475% making it a bad bet. My question is how does the Dealer's Envy Bonus affect the House Edge and does it make the bet worth while. For those of you that have not seen this it works like this. The Player must place a minimum $5 Insurance bet to Qualify for the Dealer's Envy Bonus. By making this minimum bet, if the Dealer has a Pai Gow you win the Bonus.
Ace-High = $1
King-High = $5
Queen-High = $10
Jack-High = $25
Ten-High = $50
Nine-High = $100
Did you say this was on Emperor's Challlenge? I never heard of this envy bet. Please tell me which casino did this, because I don't think this came from Galaxy gaming.
erblume, please PM me this casino's name.
.Quote: FinsRuleYeah, tell Dan so he can quickly make sure you no longer have this advantage. Hahahaha
No.
Very Quickly tell Dan so that Galaxy Gaming does not have a "Dumping Emperor's Challenge table" out there somewhere because of an action by some misguided shift manager or Table Games Director. Hopefully, it's all just a "promotion."
PM me, please.
Quote: Paigowdan.
No.
Very Quickly tell Dan so that Galaxy Gaming does not have a "Dumping Emperor's Challenge table" out there somewhere because of an action by some misguided shift manager or Table Games Director. Hopefully, it's all just a "promotion."
PM me, please.
So not only is it the player's responsibility to make sure the dealers hand is set right, it's also the players responsibility to tell the casino when their payables are too good? How about you PM me and not Dan, and I'll give you a cut of my winnings. What is Dan offering?
Quote: FinsRuleSo not only is it the player's responsibility to make sure the dealers hand is set right, it's also the players responsibility to tell the casino when their payables are too good? How about you PM me and not Dan, and I'll give you a cut of my winnings. What is Dan offering?
A thank you and good Karma.
A good gambling citizen award.
A $50 bottle of Grey Goose.
And a box of cigars.
Pm me.
Quote: PaigowdanA thank you and good Karma.
A good gambling citizen award.
A $50 bottle of Grey Goose.
And a box of cigars.
Pm me.
Man, I've always wanted a good gambling citizen award...
Quote: FinsRuleMan, I've always wanted a good gambling citizen award...
That's why I said Grey Goose and cigars.
If this isn't some sort of a BS Post by the OP, then it is the occasional maverick Table Game Director. A few do things like this.
Quote: FinsRuleI sorta hope he's trolling you. That'd be funny.
I hope so, too. He [the OP] was just approved here as a WOV member today, so I wouldn't at all be surprised. And I think it may be the case. But I do not think either Mike or Pierce would be very pleased with the deliberate posting of false or Bullshit gaming or casino reports here at their site at all. I would think this discredits and disgraces Mike's very fine site, his work, and his position in the Gaming industry, and I think it is absolutely nuke-able. [If this keeps up, He may have to interview new members via a quick phone call and a verifiable IP address check - fax a copy of a drivers license or something.....If this is true, I think Mike and Pierce need to raise the bar.]
I will say that I had previously had a few "creative" or "maverick" operators/Table Game Directors (mostly small card rooms) try to "quietly improve" the pay tables, or provide promotions without checking with us that locally hurt my game (EZ Pai Gow in this case, and back then). I don't EVER want to hear, "Dan, we checked out your game at the Chief Wild Eagle/Corporal Agarn Card room, and BOY did it dump with those daffy pay tables.....we checked with Eliot....maybe it was a promotion" [Dan: "Huh??!!"]
There are a lot of industry shoppers on table games who notice table game performance - and non-performance, - and while it is very rare to have a card room owner himself play game designer, Let Me Tell you it DOES happen. It runs afoul of BOTH the distributor and of the local gaming authority (which may be a Tribal Council for some areas).
I've also had one small casino implement EZ Pai Gow's Pai Gow Push mechanism IP as "[House-name's] Commission-Free Pai Gow" (paraphrasing here, not revealing the guilty party's name) some years ago, where they said:
1. "It's okay within our Internal Controls" (which may be absolutely true for their casino house, but that's not the issue), and;
2. "Oh...I didn't think I was infringing anything protected by doing that!" (Actually, I'm STILL hearing this same BS today....) Our member "Switch" has seen some games and games designs where people honestly or deliberately choose thought that Geoff's "push-22" mechanism was public and okay to use for their own game designs.
We'll see how this shapes up.
I think it's really funny that Dan expects anyone to PM him this information.
Quote: sodawaterWell, this thread took a hilarious turn.
I think it's really funny that Dan expects anyone to PM him this information.
I Don't expect it at all - as I would ONLY expect it if the OP wasn't a troll - and I was giving him that test. - SHOW us all here that this casino is for real.
Show me a card room that had implemented this pay table, and Galaxy Gaming will definitely call to coordinate with their casino manager, and inquire about changing procedures and math on products that are approved by gaming commissions, and that are commercial distributed by us. I do not believe that this breach of our product took place.
So actually, no one needs a PM me or anyone - unless they are for real. THAT was what I requesting, and I sometimes have little chance at this place.
1. If the OP’s claim is true, and an Emperor’s Challenge/Galaxy Product is in trouble because the Casino Manager or Table Game Manager at some local joint got fancy and into trouble with “a promotion” or “by tinkering with a manufacturer’s product,” - and where a player is taking advantage of it to where the game “performs poorly,” - that operator will ship ASAP a Field Trouble report or performance report - via email or phone call - to “D.B.” or “R.S.” or me in Las Vegas by the morning, if the game is out of whack.
2. I am one of the ones at Galaxy who gets immediately notified of problems, [or “has a discussion with”] by “D.B.,” (Table Games Sales Manager) or another superior at Galaxy, if a product has any level of reportable flawed performance, design errors or mistakes, or mathematics. I and my office at Galaxy Gaming certify game performance, design, and mathematics, and I will tell you all here that I have never seen nor approved such an Envy "insurance" mechanism on Emperor’s Challenge, and that Galaxy Gaming knows nothing of it nor had ever approved of it. I am looking into this, and I am thoroughly convinced that the OP original post is absolutely bogus, had spewed Bullshit, and that he (the original poster) cannot substantiate a casino where this game change is in effect.
for that matter, I don't think anyone else can either, to be honest. Put up and present your proof, or shut up.
The casino's name and location, and the date of playing the game with this pay table would be all that's needed in verifying this questionable story. A phone call to the gaming control board about this matter, and asking to review the surveillance tape with interviews of the shift managers - if true - would answer a lot of questions extremely quickly on this apparently horseshit story by the Original Poster.
You see, sodawater, the really hilarious turn here is that the OP is duping EVERYONE here at this excellent gaming board by providing us neither real math or real proof that this "pay table" is in casino play anywhere around. In fact, a number of fine members called it a sucker bet when it is a GREAT advantage play. I'm actually quite embarrassed for the being the only soul here who caught it quickly.
3. As part of my job, I monitor sites, such as Mike Shackleford’s “Wizard of Vegas” here, for both authentic information as well as counterfeit information on our gaming products. I believe this thread was initiated by an absolutely bogus post, one that got past Mike and Pierce’s new membership Quality control, but one that didn’t get past me, - and I couldn’t care less about getting a PM from some fraudster. I asked for it IF it were real, but in my opinion, it is not.
4. And I’ll tell you this: whenever a small card room or small casino takes liberties with the dealing procedures on our products, we do take it seriously, if true.
Couldn’t care less about being PM-ed by some fraudster, but would care IF legitimate. If this all is legitimate, I’ll get a PM – or a phone call in my office.
Enough said.
That's a mighty big shotgun you got there, pardner.
I have a few random comments.
I did not fully understand the OP's paytable; I didn't realize the Dealer envy was a "ride-along " value on another bet; thought he was saying it cost $5 to get that paytable by itself. Glad he clarified.
Your point about protecting proprietary paytables and math is well taken. HOWEVER, who is going to help you with this puzzle after the double rant with all the aspersions on the OP? If I'm him, I wouldn't want to and you know how my honest streak torments me into giving back overpays.
I don't see anything here that seems trollish from the OP. I think it's a legit inquiry, and you need to query back your customers. I could be wrong about the OP. If he simply googled "pai gow emporer's challenge" or something, you know this site comes up on page 1; it could be as simple as that. "Ask the Wizard" directs people here.
Mike and Pierce have instituted "Quality Control" on members? Never heard it phrased like that. You're welcome to PM me and elaborate if you like, but that's sort of news, and I'm one of those "doing" it.
We'll see how this all plays out, I guess, but that was a lot of name-calling from a person I respect.
But if it were real, why would he tell you where it is? Do your own job. Are you going to split your salary with OP if he fills you in?
Quote: sodawaterPGD,
But if it were real, why would he tell you where it is? Do your own job.
I am doing it, keeping track of it and calling it as it is. I don't need any poster here to tell me what's going on in this business, juss' asking if he'd like to contribute IF he's authentic, and get a bottle and a box with a thank you note If he'd like to come clean, - that is - IF he's real, which I doubt.
Quote: sodawaterAre you going to split your salary with OP if he fills you in?
Oh, Hell No. This gimmick won't last long if true in any case - so let him scavenge some chump change from that local joint, because it is a doozie of an AP play if true. Milk it 'til this cow dies if true, we'll find out in Vegas soon enough. He'll get a bottle of premium vodka and a box of cigars via Amazon.com for his fine consideration, along with a signed letter of appreciation from a gaming executive, which he can frame, along with a print out of this thread. This is about as close as he'll come to the major leagues if not jerking us around, which I think he's doing. AP-ing a PGP game is a God Damned fool's endeavor, even if a good promo or Manager's mistake pops up.
Quote: beachbumbabsPGD,
That's a mighty big shotgun you got there, pardner.
Shoot, I'm a just a horsewhipped peon. A smart one, and okay in math, but I'm a small guy. The way I get horsewhipped around here, Barbara, you should know.
Quote: BabsI have a few random comments. I did not fully understand the OP's paytable; I didn't realize the Dealer envy was a "ride-along " value on another bet; thought he was saying it cost $5 to get that paytable by itself. Glad he clarified.
No problem. We game designers all miss some minor mathematical curly-cue stuff from time to time, in a thread, or at work, - if not too often. Means nothing in the big scheme of things. Envy in Pai Gow Poker is a free add-on onto a $5+ side bet, and there is NO WAY an envy starts at the same pay table bottom as the base pay table bottom, red flag #1. Envy is supposed to reduce a 7% or so side bet to 3% - 4% when a good betting limit is reached, as the 5x increase in side bet size gives the house approximate the same "per spot" revenue/income for rewarding a player when betting that big. It should not and cannot ever make that side bet become "house edge negative/Player edge positive," - which is what this pay table does, - if to be offered in a casino.
Quote: BabsYour point about protecting proprietary paytables and math is well taken. HOWEVER, who is going to help you with this puzzle after the double rant with all the aspersions on the OP? If I'm him, I wouldn't want to and you know how my honest streak torments me into giving back overpays.
Doesn't matter; if he was full of it on his bogus gambling hall "pay table revelation," and his PM would never come, and if he were true in what he said, he also wouldn't do it on AP principle. If he were a real AP, he wouldn't announce the game-play mechanism at this site, in fact, he'd be in some casino winning $$, or going home to watch Netflix. And if there were a real problem, the Card room manager would be grilled for "getting fancy."
Quote: babsI don't see anything here that seems trollish from the OP. I think it's a legit inquiry, and you need to query back your customers.
I think the OP is 100% a troll. First of all, if he's an AP, then why reveal the mechanism in error to kill his golden goose? An AP could kill it by owning a new house and car if he could, and would keep shush until that point. But if you reveal it, you're not an AP, so why fail to provide any proof if you do unless to sh*t a whole forum and board?
Quote: babsI could be wrong about the OP. If he simply googled "pai gow emporer's challenge" or something, you know this site comes up on page 1; it could be as simple as that. "Ask the Wizard" directs people here.
Goggle wouldn't return that result except through us letting trolls get in here, where it can be later recorded by Google, and displayed on your search.
- then he'd be a BS artist troll with no card room/gambling hall experience getting in to the heart of our forum, and dirtying up our Goggle results.
Quote: BabsMike and Pierce have instituted "Quality Control" on members? Never heard it phrased like that.
Neither have I, - based on this thread and others. Mike should have an email discussion via any potential new members established email account instead of an easy math quiz or something. Actually check the new prospect out like minor job interview or a Payday loan application. Submit a small application that says 'this is who I am, check me out before I waste everyone's time." A Newbie comes in and drops us a t*rd that makes no math or gaming sense, and six long time members eat it up, then diss me and ridicule me and my company, then I falsify it, - and presto, we got a BS thread from a BS new member.
Look at the initial gambling circumstances and pay table. Totally Bogus and unsound, with no plausible session or casino description, which is below the standards for this forum. With this guy here, also consider: .........
Look at the mention of Emperor's Challenge, our company's major product.
Look at the people being duped again.
Look at how many times fraudsters have trolled us, and you'd see my point.
If You or Mike or Pierce charged a dollar ($1) on a credit card, asking "Name, date of birth, City, State, and Zip" to verify it - asking it on a screen form like Amazon.com, - like we were charged a dollar to buy a used book or something, we'd kill off a lot of ghosts and shot-takers that we're vulnerable to. I believe even some AP sites do this.
you'd have full name and addresses attached to an IP address.
Quote: BabsWe'll see how this all plays out, I guess, but that was a lot of name-calling from a person I respect.
There was zero name calling, really.
I was just mentioning problems and issues.
No offense meant, and no offense should be taken.
Quote: FinsRuleDan - I agree with you, but Fatgeezus says we are wrong...
I'm not a math guy. Just a guy that likes to play PGP. (without the side bets)
I never said 'you' were wrong. In fact, I don't see where 'you' said it was a good bet. You jumped on the band wagon when PGDan came up with the math. HIS math became WE.
I never said PGDan was right or wrong.
What I said was side bets are created by the casinos to get your money faster.
Quote: FatGeezus......
What I said was side bets are created by the casinos to get your money faster.
This isn't totally true. Casinos shouldn't get money too fast, too much, or have too few winners.
A good game allows winners and losers and a house edge - all three.
Who in the world would play a game that just burns them out? Who would offer a game that burns out the players, or for that matter, the card room or casino itself?
I'll go so far as to say a good game has to have balance: fun to play, a decent chance to win, and is worthwhile for the house to offer.
On Blackjack, which has such a low edge, side bets are there to increase profit.
Quote: FinsRuleOk, I got it now.
You make a $5 Pai Gow Insurance sidebet, and you get that Dealer's Pai Gow Envy bet free.
Usually Q high is 7-1 not 6-1 in the regular bet BTW. So your house edge should be a little higher.
Anyway, I'm not a math person but that pay table gives you a player advantage on the side bet. So pound it and don't tell anyone. Actually, tell me where it is and delete this thread.
So this was what I posted BEFORE PGD posted. Looks like you lied in your post Fatgeezus. I would like an apology.
Quote: sodawaterWell, this thread took a hilarious turn.
I think it's really funny that Dan expects anyone to PM him this information.
I say he PMs me, and I check it out and can decide whether he is a troll... :-)
Quote: PaigowdanOn Blackjack, which has such a low edge, side bets are there to increase profit.
It's important to remember, for those who aren't in the industry, that a casino often tries to maintain a given revenue per square foot on their gaming floor. There's a reason you don't see $3 3-2 DD blackjack at the Bellagio: the win/hour/table wouldn't be high enough for the financial goals of the property. There are basically three ways to increase win/hour/table:
a) Increase average wager
b) Increase hands/hour
c) Increase average game edge
Adding a side bet to a game accomplishes (a) and (c), potentially at the expense of (b). What side bets really do is provide the ability for players to self-select into a high-risk vs. low-risk play behavior. Without blackjack or baccarat side bets, many main-floor games would need to increase minimum wagers and/or use less favorable rules. Similarly, if all the bets on craps were removed except pass and come (with odds), the table minimums would shoot up to the $25-$100 range everywhere. The house couldn't afford to offer craps at typical limits if everyone only made line bets.
Quote: FinsRuleI say he PMs me, and I check it out and can decide whether he is a troll... :-)
Actually, I've been PM-ed by many who were neither trolls nor who had any problem providing correct information on games and card rooms.
I've also seen posted in threads here information that is actually correct and factual, such as: "Frank's card room in Olympia three days ago; the manager said he was trying a new pay table, and the table seems to be holding less/too much, - can you guys check it out," etc.
I would suppose you do not go to the "Questions and Answers" area of a gamblers' forum to deceive and conceal unless you are a troll.
Quote: MathExtremistIt's important to remember, for those who aren't in the industry, that a casino often tries to maintain a given revenue per square foot on their gaming floor. There's a reason you don't see $3 3-2 DD blackjack at the Bellagio: the win/hour/table wouldn't be high enough for the financial goals of the property. There are basically three ways to increase win/hour/table:
a) Increase average wager
b) Increase hands/hour
c) Increase average game edge
Adding a side bet to a game accomplishes (a) and (c), potentially at the expense of (b). What side bets really do is provide the ability for players to self-select into a high-risk vs. low-risk play behavior. Without blackjack or baccarat side bets, many main-floor games would need to increase minimum wagers and/or use less favorable rules. Similarly, if all the bets on craps were removed except pass and come (with odds), the table minimums would shoot up to the $25-$100 range everywhere. The house couldn't afford to offer craps at typical limits if everyone only made line bets.
This is an excellent post and description. Games couldn't be offered if not feasible for the house to offer them, and side bets ARE a game-income adjustment tool or modification for low-holding games, - allowing minimums to often be playable when otherwise not, so in a sense it makes things fairer, or at least possible to play. Neither should a side bet be dull, overly strong in house edge, and should offer a chance for the player to win WAY more than even money, or a bit more than even money with a higher hit frequency. The PGP side bet initially described was not of this category at all when examined, and was incorrectly credited to a gaming company who did NOT offer this folly.
Quote: FinsRuleDan - not meaning to derail the thread, but is your game anywhere on the strip? I miss being able to play it...
Yes, - thanks - it's at the Venetian and the Palazzo, $25+. And Hooters (much lower minimum there.)
Quote: PaigowdanI Don't expect it at all - as I would ONLY expect it if the OP wasn't a troll - and I was giving him that test. - SHOW us all here that this casino is for real.
That's not a very good test.
If I found a game with an edge off the top, I would not tell anyone, and I would certainly not tell you. I would not even have made the initial post, but maybe he needed verification that there actually was an edge (I'd just figure it out myself)
Which is not to say that he is not a troll; just that we can't be sure.
That's perfectly reasonable.
Quote: erblumeI'm not a troll. I thought I had a legitimate question. If I could do the math myself I would have. At this point I'm sorry I ever started this thread.
Don't be sorry. You got your answer. Obviously Dan has different goals from yours. He is not trolling either; his world view is just different. It's just really, really funny that he thinks that you would tell him where this was.
Are the bonuses multiplied if you make a bigger bet, or are they constant? In other words, if you bet $10 instead of $5, do you get doubled bonuses for the dealer hand?
If not, it's really not worth much. I mean, if you're going to play anyway, you may as well bet it (at the minimum), but you are obviously not going to make any real money with 25c of EV per hand. (which also makes Dan's "this here's an ATM" comment hilarious -- not all of us are looking to make $5 per hour, you know...)
On the other hand, if the bonuses scale up with your bet... now you are on to something.
Quote: erblumeI hear ya. I just didn't expect to get attacked like that. The bonuses are the same no matter the size of the bet.
I hope you didn't think I was attacking. Good luck, and win a bunch!
Quote: FinsRuleSo this was what I posted BEFORE PGD posted. Looks like you lied in your post Fatgeezus. I would like an apology.
I was wrong. Being wrong and lying are two different things.
Quote: FatGeezusI was wrong. Being wrong and lying are two different things.
Apology accepted.
Quote: FinsRuleApology accepted.
Just to be clear..I admit that I was wrong, but I am not apologizing.
I think you owe me an apology for calling me a liar.
Being wrong and lying are 2 different things.
