So why is it that keno gives less points than slots?
I think its because most keno are on Multi-games and they have video poker on them.Quote: Zer0So the two casinos I go to both award players card tier points slightly differently(not comps but like those points where your player rank goes up when you get a certain amount and the higher your rank the more perks you get), but both have one thing in common: you only get half the points for keno that you would get from slots. Example: at one you earn a point for every dollar bet on slots and every two dollars bet on video poker and keno, and at the other you get a point for every 4 dollars on slots and 8 dollars on video poker or keno. Given that most slot machines aren't even as bad as keno, shouldn't you get twice as many points for playing it as slots and not half as many? What's the deal here?
That would make you wonder if in fact slots are not much worse then we think. however you should avoid anything that's -EV.Quote: AcesAndEightsFWIW you can always mathematically determine the exact house edge (or "hold" if you will) for a Keno game, since you know the total number of balls, the payoffs, etc. In this way it's similar to video poker. For slots this is rarely possible, despite the Wizard's best efforts. Obviously this doesn't mean that Keno has a better house edge than slots, but you can always know exactly what you're up against. With slots, it's a guessing game. This is a big reason I have never wanted to play slots.
Rarely possible is a bit strong of a statement.
Quote: AcesAndEightsFWIW you can always mathematically determine the exact house edge (or "hold" if you will) for a Keno game, since you know the total number of balls, the payoffs, etc. In this way it's similar to video poker. For slots this is rarely possible, despite the Wizard's best efforts. Obviously this doesn't mean that Keno has a better house edge than slots, but you can always know exactly what you're up against. With slots, it's a guessing game. This is a big reason I have never wanted to play slots.
Well yeah but when you're playing slots even though you never know what the exact house edge is, you can bet its still a hell of a lot better than keno. I never play either and I always rack up poibts when I play video poker but it just seems weird to me .
Quote: AxelWolfThat would make you wonder if in fact slots are not much worse then we think. however you should avoid anything that's -EV.
I can't stay away from -EV but at least I stick to craps where I know what I'm giving up.
Quote:Rarely possible is a bit strong of a statement.
Is "almost always impossible" better? :P
After all, the earning of comps is all about decisions per hour I believe?
Quote: AxelWolfI think its because most keno are on Multi-games and they have video poker on them.
This. They either cannot, or do not care enough to, program the machine to differentiate.
Quote: Zer0Well yeah but when you're playing slots even though you never know what the exact house edge is, you can bet its still a hell of a lot better than keno. I never play either and I always rack up poibts when I play video poker but it just seems weird to me .
Don't dismiss Keno entirely, especially if you can find an advantageous Progressive. It becomes just like Video Poker when there is an advantageous Progressive with the main difference being that a certain Keno combination (ex: 6:6, 6:7, 7:7(Slightly), 7:9, 8:9, 8:10) are more likely than a Royal Flush on many VP games and it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a mistake playing Video Keno, just sit there and slam the button when at an advantage.
Furthermore, many Keno games can be played more cheaply than slots and still (usually) tend to stay around 90% on the base pays. There are many slot machines that return worse than that.
Quote: TomspurYou can get less hands of Keno out per minute (or hour) than you can of a traditional slot machine.
With all due respect, that makes no sense as a blanket statement. I'll put a Keno game with no Bonus Games feature (or one with a Bonus games feature, playing at second-to-top or top speed) against a QuickHits Platinum machine any day of the week. Actually, I'll put Keno with no Free Games feature (at top speed) up against any slot machine that does have a Free Games feature.
Quote: Mission146With all due respect, that makes no sense as a blanket statement. I'll put a Keno game with no Bonus Games feature (or one with a Bonus games feature, playing at second-to-top or top speed) against a QuickHits Platinum machine any day of the week. Actually, I'll put Keno with no Free Games feature (at top speed) up against any slot machine that does have a Free Games feature.
So mission you are saying a Keno machine gets more decisions per hour than a regular, run of the mill slot machine?
How long, on average, at top speed does a keno game take to complete?
A slot, at top speed (if we are comparing apples to apples) takes about 3 to 4 seconds, then you can also stop the reels simultaneously in which case it takes about 1 to 2 seconds per spin.
I don't know much about Keno but I do know a little bit about how casinos calculate comps on both slot machines and table games.
Did you only not like my statement with regards to the speed mentioned or that I said decisions per hour affect your theoretical which in turn affects your comp level?
Quote: TomspurSo mission you are saying a Keno machine gets more decisions per hour than a regular, run of the mill slot machine?
How long, on average, at top speed does a keno game take to complete?
My argument is largely with the blanket statement, although, I would put Lucky Bells Keno at top speed on the Spielo GTECH machines up against something like Ten Times Pay, single-line, any day of the week.
I have also never timed the Keno game, per se, but next time I am there (at a $0.05 bet) I will make it a point to time it for a minute playing as fast as possible. I believe between 1-2 seconds is feasible on that game, there's no graphic of numbers being drawn on that one, they just light up.
That having been said, the $0.01/denomination is the most rapidly growing denomination in casinos nationwide, and it's because people love the games. They love the games because they take time with all the sounds, bells, whistles and Bonus Game type stuff. On certain machines, a single play can take multiple minutes.
Quote:Did you only not like my statement with regards to the speed mentioned or that I said decisions per hour affect your theoretical which in turn affects your comp level?
Decisions per hour could affect your theoretical all other things equal. Amount bet can affect your theoretical, also, obviously. You could bet as little as $0.05 on most machines that have Video Keno that I have seen, and The D, for example, has a $0.01 denomination VK game.
I don't know that casinos really look at decisions per hour with respect to slots, VP and Keno players, I think they just look at coin-in and ADT , at least, that's what the points are based on. For example, they'd rather an ADT of $500/day and you coming in one day per month than an ADT of $25/day and you coming in 20 days per month.
I just went and timed a 5 reel video reel slot (IGT) on medium speed. It takes 4 seconds on average to resolve one game.
I also timed a 3 window reel slot and that took 5 seconds due to the delay of wheel spinning times.
Of what I can remember of Keno (and I really don't know much about it so I will defer to your knowledge of the game) is that it took quite a bit longer to reslve, around 7 to 8 seconds. Like cave man Keno when the balls fall down on the right hand side of the game?
Anyway, that was what I had to add to this thread. I can't really think of another set reason if all the information posted by the OP is accurate.
Quote: TomspurYou could be right with regqards to coin in and ADT but there has to be a difference with regards to the calculation with regards to the OP's post, IF accurate the only thing I could viably come up with was decisions per hour.
I still agree with Axelwolf, the Keno games are on VP machines and they lack either the means or the desire to differentiate between Video Poker and Video Keno games being played on that machine.
Quote:Of what I can remember of Keno (and I really don't know much about it so I will defer to your knowledge of the game) is that it took quite a bit longer to reslve, around 7 to 8 seconds. Like cave man Keno when the balls fall down on the right hand side of the game?
Anyway, that was what I had to add to this thread. I can't really think of another set reason if all the information posted by the OP is accurate.
Oh yeah, Caveman could probably take four-five seconds even on the fastest setting. That's why I said "The blanket statement," you're definitely correct in comparing some Keno games to some slot games. Lucky Bells Keno will smoke what you just timed on those slot machines on the second slowest setting, though perhaps not the slowest. It will absolutely annihilate that speed on the fastest or second-fastest setting.
Fireball Keno on the same (Spielo GTECH) machines will be slower than Lucky Bells, per hour, because it has bonus games. Frost&Fire will be slower than Lucky Bells, same reason, but faster than Fireball because (assuming same number of picks and speed setting) the Bonus Games are far less likely AND conclude faster.
It's just that different games have different features and different speeds. Lucky Bells has a multiplier feature, but it has no effect on the speed of the game. In some cases, the slot machine will be faster and Keno will be faster in others.
Axel could be right but there is a HUGE difference between VP and Keno. Can we really surmize that the casinos don't know the difference or cannot be asked to calculate what that difference would be worth to them?
Perhaps we need to keep racking our brains :)
Quote: Tomspur
Axel could be right but there is a HUGE difference between VP and Keno. Can we really surmize that the casinos don't know the difference or cannot be asked to calculate what that difference would be worth to them?
Perhaps we need to keep racking our brains :)
No, he means that the games are on the same physical machine. Game Kings, for example, Video Keno and Video Poker are often on the same physical machines, this is especially true in smaller casinos that don't have very many physical machines. The Spielo GTECH's have VP & VK on the same physical machines.
I imagine, with respect to casinos that have Keno games that do not share a physical machine with VP, that the machine is calculated same as slots, that's if VP and VK are calculated differently in the first place. Wheeling Island is one where the Game Kings (cowards!) do not earn points at all, but the Spielo GTECH VP and VK is calculated the same as slots.
Quote: Mission146No, he means that the games are on the same physical machine. Game Kings, for example, Video Keno and Video Poker are often on the same physical machines, this is especially true in smaller casinos that don't have very many physical machines. The Spielo GTECH's have VP & VK on the same physical machines.
I imagine, with respect to casinos that have Keno games that do not share a physical machine with VP, that the machine is calculated same as slots, that's if VP and VK are calculated differently in the first place. Wheeling Island is one where the Game Kings (cowards!) do not earn points at all, but the Spielo GTECH VP and VK is calculated the same as slots.
Yeah I understood what he meant but they are individual games each witht heir own set of program history. They also have individual HE setting sso why would it matter that they share the same box?
They should be able to calculate your CI or your ADT based on each individual game, moreover your ADT because that is based on your average bet x game type x time played.
I think the important part here is the game type. how do they rate Keno in comparison to slots. They obviously lump Keno and VP together (based on Op's figures). Is there a reason for that other than them sharing a box? This is what I cannot answer.
Quote: Mission146I understand that, but do the boxes into which you insert your Player's Club card recognize when you are playing one game as opposed to another, or only the amount being bet?
That is the million dollar question........
You would think the technology is available to distinguish between the games you are playing but that may not be the truth.
I will attempt to ask a slot manager friend of mine.
Quote: Zer0Well yeah but when you're playing slots even though you never know what the exact house edge is, you can bet its still a hell of a lot better than keno. I never play either and I always rack up poibts when I play video poker but it just seems weird to me .
I disagree. Slots tend to be much worse than video Keno these days.
Quote: Mission146I understand that, but do the boxes into which you insert your Player's Club card recognize when you are playing one game as opposed to another, or only the amount being bet?
I have been developing player tracking systems since 1993. The answer is yes the player tracking systems know which game you are playing on a multigame machines.
Quote: DRichI have been developing player tracking systems since 1993. The answer is yes the player tracking systems know which game you are playing on a multigame machines.
In that event, why do some casinos rate Keno and VP the same, as in, less than slots?
Quote: Mission146How is that different from anything else? I understand you don't know what the HE of slots is, but there is one, and most Keno players don't know the HE of that, either.
There is only a difference because the casinos treat them as different. What their motivations are, I cannot say
Quote: Mission146In that event, why do some casinos rate Keno and VP the same, as in, less than slots?
I believe Axel hit it on the head. Most video keno games are set up on multi-game machines with poker games. The popular slot player tracking systems allow you to earn points based on coin -in, coin out, or theo hold. Not many casinos use the theo hold model even though it is the most efficient. The problem with it is that it is much harder for a typical customer to understand. When using the popular coin in method, the major slot systems only allow one parameter per machine (not per game). In that case if we assume a machine has both video poker and video keno, the casino will usually assign it based on the loosest game.
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Dam I got exited when I seen the words keno, casino, bonuses.Quote: MilamaI don`t know why it happens so. I know that playing Keno many casinos offer bonuses. You can see it here.
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To whoever said, keno is worst than slots, they must be thinking of higher denomination slots or older versions , because VIDEO keno is better than the average video slot nowadays. Perhaps by at least 5%.
Why is video keno so horrible compared to VP? The obvious answer is, because you can't make mistakes or bad strategy plays on keno.
Another reason why video keno has such bad odds is because originally video keno was very slow bink.... bink ....bink ....bink. Remember the keno Wand you used to pick the numbers before touch screens? A few places still have the older versions.
Nickel keno used to be fairly popular. People would buy a can of nickels for $500, play all night while they got drunk, meanwhile looking for a "big" hit.
Even though technology has improved the speed, (now they even have multi card keno) hey haven't improved the odds. They just went with what's working. The keno players obviously don't care about the odds, so why change it?
It's obvious the casinos have the technology to separately track different games on a multi game, I'm sure some do. Why doesn't everyone do this? Probably because it's not that important to them. They probably just want to know what each machine is making.
Quote: AxelWolf
It's obvious the casinos have the technology to separately track different games on a multi game, I'm sure some do. Why doesn't everyone do this? Probably because it's not that important to them. They probably just want to know what each machine is making.
Yes they do, but it is a lot of work on a machine by machine basis. In our tavern locations we look at it all the time because we only have 15 machines. In the casinos with 1000's of machines there just isn't time. We will look at an overall on the floor by paytable to see what Double Double, Deuces, JOB, etc are doing.
