Tie Bet with no 50% bet restriction
This side bet has a maximum wager equal to 50% of your original blackjack wager. A basic strategy is presented which takes into account betting 1.5 units assuming maximum amount on the side wager.
A casino near me is removing the 50% maximum on the tie bet restriction. I think this will make the overall game +EV.
I am assuming I should bet minimum on the blackjack wager ($5) and maximum on the tie wager ($25) but I don't know what changes I should make to basic strategy to maximize my EV.
Can anyone help?
EDIT (6 Deck Shoe, 3:2 BJ, split aces once, no surrender, dealer hit soft 17)
Without actually doing any math, I'm going to guess that with hard or soft totals (non-pairs) you always hit until you get to 17 (hard or soft) and then stand.
Splitting is another question. I would guess that you never split aces (because you only get 1 card to them). Stopping with less than 17 (or busting) is a disaster because you can't win the tie bet (which is 5x your main bet, and pays 50x your main bet if it wins). I think your main goal is to get to 17+ and then stop, so I would guess that you also never split 10s or 9s. Always split 8s and 7s, since you are more likely to get to 17 without busting if you do. Probably never split 6's, 5s, or 4's, and always split 3s and 2s.
Note that this is just my (hopefully educated) guess, off the top of my head. I certainly may have mistakes -- possibly many of them. If someone does generate a correct strategy for this, I'd be curious to see how close my guesses were, and if my strategy leads to an edge (even if it's non-optimal).
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceInteresting.
Without actually doing any math, I'm going to guess that with hard or soft totals (non-pairs) you always hit until you get to 17 (hard or soft) and then stand...
I have some preliminary results from an infinite-deck analysis assuming a $5 main bet, $25 side bet, and H17. I agree that the player should hit hard totals to reach 17 or more. Assuming the dealer peeks (edited spelling) for blackjack, the player should never stand on blackjack. Here are my soft standing hands:
Dealer Soft stand
2 17-21
3 17-21
4 17-21
5 17-21
6 17-21
7 17-18
8 17-19
9 18-20
10 18-20
A 18-20
I find that the player should never double down. But I have yet to do the split strategy.
Quote: ChesterDogAssuming the dealer peaks for blackjack, the player should never stand on blackjack.
LOL!! Good point. I hadn't thought of that.
It looks like I was pretty close to correct, although slightly off on the soft totals. Hitting the big soft totals on 7+ is interesting. I guess getting another shot at ending up with dealer's card +10 is worth the risk of busting? Are these close plays?
Quote: AxiomOfChoice... Hitting the big soft totals on 7+ is interesting. I guess getting another shot at ending up with dealer's card +10 is worth the risk of busting? Are these close plays?
I find only three close plays; hitting soft 17 vs 9 and 10 is better than standing by 12 and 5 cents, respectively, and hitting soft 21 vs ace is better by 23 cents. The other plays have differences greater than $3.75.
Quote: xdealerxOn the Wizard of Odds website there is a blackjack side bet called Tie (Version 1) https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/8/#tiebet
This side bet has a maximum wager equal to 50% of your original blackjack wager. A basic strategy is presented which takes into account betting 1.5 units assuming maximum amount on the side wager.
A casino near me is removing the 50% maximum on the tie bet restriction. I think this will make the overall game +EV.
I am assuming I should bet minimum on the blackjack wager ($5) and maximum on the tie wager ($25) but I don't know what changes I should make to basic strategy to maximize my EV.
Can anyone help?
EDIT (6 Deck Shoe, 3:2 BJ, split aces once, no surrender, dealer hit soft 17)
Is the side bet going to be any amount, or will it now be up to 100% of your original wager?
Dealer Split
2 7's, 8's
3 7's, 8's
4 7's, 8's
5 7's, 8's
6 7's, 8's
7 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 10's
8 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 10's
9 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 9's, 10's
10 2's, 3's, 7's, 8's, 9's
A 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's
Assuming the player may hit his blackjacks, I get a huge player advantage of 10.9% based on the initial $30 bet ($5 main + $25 side.) And if the player may not hit his blackjacks, I get a player advantage of 7.3%.
If the dealer cannot bet more on the tie bet than on the main bet, I get a player advantage of 2.3% based on an initial $10 bet ($5 main + $5 side.) And if the player may not hit his blackjacks, I get a player advantage of 1.6%.
Their thought process is to treat the tie bet as a separate wager like the Lucky Ladies bet so I would expect they will allow any amount up to $25 max that is already established for that bet.
ChesterDog:
Thank you for your feedback. I see the split strategy. Do your numbers 7.3% advantage take into account all possible plays or just an advantage on split hands?
Have you done any calculations other than splits that would affect basic strategy?
Edit: I went back and re-read all the posts. Looks like you ran everything and the changes are:
Hit all Hands to hard 17
Follow Chart for Soft Hands
Follow Chart for Splits
Not being able to hit player blackjack gives a total player advantage of 7.3%
Quote: ChesterDogHere's my split strategy for a $5 main bet and $25 tie bet:
Dealer Split
A 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's
I find this line in the chart to be the most surprising. Does it take into account the fact that the player only receives one card to each split ace?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: ChesterDogHere's my split strategy for a $5 main bet and $25 tie bet:
Dealer Split
A 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's
I find this line in the chart to be the most surprising. Does it take into account the fact that the player only receives one card to each split ace?
That line doesn't include aces for the player.
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: ChesterDogHere's my split strategy for a $5 main bet and $25 tie bet:
Dealer Split
A 2's, 3's, 6's, 7's, 8's
I find this line in the chart to be the most surprising. Does it take into account the fact that the player only receives one card to each split ace?
That line doesn't include aces for the player.
Whoops.
Yeah I was reading the table backwards. I blame lack of coffee...
Quote: ChesterDogI have some preliminary results from an infinite-deck analysis assuming a $5 main bet, $25 side bet, and H17. I agree that the player should hit hard totals to reach 17 or more. Assuming the dealer peeks (edited spelling) for blackjack, the player should never stand on blackjack. Here are my soft standing hands:
Dealer Soft stand
2 17-21
3 17-21
4 17-21
5 17-21
6 17-21
7 17-18
8 17-19
9 18-20
10 18-20
A 18-20
What I find interesting is that I would hit A-A-9 vs dealer 7 thru A. Or am I misreading?
Quote: xdealerxWhat I find interesting is that I would hit A-A-9 vs dealer 7 thru A. Or am I misreading?
This was not my first instinct, but maybe it's not that surprising. Once the dealer has checked for blackjack, the only way he can get to 21 is by drawing. So if he has 7-A, 21 is not a great total for you -- 17 through 20 are going to be much better, since you have some chance of already being tied. (presumably this is the same reason that you draw to soft 19 or 20 against a 7, and soft 20 against an 8 -- there is no chance that you are already tied)
It also makes the strategy easy to remember. Against a low dealer card (2-6), stop with any soft pat hand. Against a high dealer card, stop if there is some hole card that would give you a tie without the dealer drawing.
I'm not sure about BJ as it could tie, but in the UK you can't hit it and in most casinos you can't hit soft 21.
A 10 - Stand on all 17-20s, hit s21, Split 2 3 6 7 8.
2-6 - Stand on all 17-21s, Split 2 3 6 7 8
7 - Stand on 17-21, only Stand on s17,s18, Split 2 6 7 8 10 (i.e. can be made with hole card)
8 - Stand on 17-21, only Stand on s17-s19, Split 2 3 6 7 8 10 (i.e. can be made with hole card)
9 - Stand on 17-21, only Stand on s17-s20, Split 2 3 6 7 8 9 (i.e. can be made with hole card)
So get similar logic, except to split 10s vs 7 and 8.
Quote: charliepatrickUsing infinite deck I naively assumed the payout on the Tie bet was so much more than the Blackjack bet (and using UK rules), to ignore the BJ bet (and the Tie bet is only paid on the first hand you split - I suspect different logic applies if you actually have to put up another Tie Bet).
I'm not sure about BJ as it could tie, but in the UK you can't hit it and in most casinos you can't hit soft 21.
A 10 - Stand on all 17-20s, hit s21, Split 2 3 6 7 8.
2-6 - Stand on all 17-21s, Split 2 3 6 7 8
7 - Stand on 17-21, only Stand on s17,s18, Split 2 6 7 8 10 (i.e. can be made with hole card)
8 - Stand on 17-21, only Stand on s17-s19, Split 2 3 6 7 8 10 (i.e. can be made with hole card)
9 - Stand on 17-21, only Stand on s17-s20, Split 2 3 6 7 8 9 (i.e. can be made with hole card)
So get similar logic, except to split 10s vs 7 and 8.
For a Tie Bet only game with S17 and not being allowed to put up another Tie Bet on splits, I agree completely with your strategy. And for a H17 game, I get only one tiny change--don't stand on soft 17 vs A.
Quote: ChesterDog
Assuming the player may hit his blackjacks, I get a huge player advantage of 10.9% based on the initial $30 bet ($5 main + $25 side.) And if the player may not hit his blackjacks, I get a player advantage of 7.3%.
Could you re-run your sim assuming a $5 main bet with a $50 side bet? Does the strategy stay the same and what is the edge?
Quote: grbjdealerCould you re-run your sim assuming a $5 main bet with a $50 side bet? Does the strategy stay the same and what is the edge?
Assuming the player may hit his non-blackjack soft 21's and must put up another tie bet for each split, I get a player EV of 8.8% based on a $5 main bet with a $50 tie bet. The only strategy changes I find are to stand on soft 17 vs 9 and 10 and to split 6's vs 10 when going from a $25 tie bet to a $50 tie bet.
My results are from an infinite-deck model on an Excel sheet (not a sim.)
Quote: ChesterDogMy results are from an infinite-deck model on an Excel sheet (not a sim.)
Any chance you could share your Excel Sheet? (PM maybe?)
