Ever get the feeling your craps table has been iced?

So you're at the craps table trying to win some money and the dice finally makes its turn to you. You make your bets with your sweaty palms and try to loosen up before taking your throw. The g-o-d-s start to smile on you and you've got a steak going. You're betting the line with max odds and maybe going inside for 44 or outside for 40. Heck you're even tossing a chip to the dealers as your tray is getting full. But then all of a sudden, the loudest most obnoxious group of people, drunk as skunk, smoking like their lungs feed off of ash, make their way to your hot table. They dump a grand on the table to make change and place chips right in the path of where you're aiming your dice forcing you to knock them if you want to throw(I know I literally had a table where they built a chinese wall of chips on the passline as a dozen ppl crowded the other side). And/or they crowd you as if you're going to be brutally mugged. And as the dice come back to you the croupier "accidentally" shows you a lovely 7 when your point has already been established. And of course you know how the story ends.....shooter out.

Ever feel your table has been iced? Deliberately, intentionally, or is it the sign your karma has been depleted.

And what can you do? Take down your place bets, reduce your odds, and/or color up and take a coffee break.

Anyone favor instigating craps etiquette rules and posting them. Simple things like oh....
1.) No tossing cash onto the table right in the middle of the shooters throw.
2.) No huddling around the shooter
3.) No blocking the shooters path by cutting him off. And "no stepping on the shooters toes"
4.) No placing chips in the direct line of sight/roll of the shooter
5.) No breathing smoke into the shooters face
6.) New players should move to positions left of the shooter as oppose to right or in front of the shooter
7.) No playing 2 craps tables at once and jumping back yelling where's my chips/bet/winnings etc.
8.) <sigh> this list would be endless.

I'm a firm believer in hot/cold tables, your best bet would be moving over to the don'ts. Personally, I don't think messing with the shooter affects anything but of course in the end none of this really makes logical sense.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

And what can you do? Take down your place bets, reduce your odds, and/or color up and take a coffee break.

I often get the itch to say "I'm off for this roll." It seems like every time I say it, the roll is of no consequence. However, it seems like every time I don't, the next thing I hear is "Seven out."

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

6.) New players should move to positions left of the shooter as oppose to right or in front of the shooter.

Actually, they should take positions to the right of the shooter. The players to the shooter's left have been there longer and should be allowed to shoot next.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

7.) No playing 2 craps tables at once and jumping back yelling where's my chips/bet/winnings etc.

This is a rule in A.C.

Seriously, etiquette? At a craps table? The only way you're gonna get any of the things you're looking for is to play at a high limit table. And even then, some of those things will still happen.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

1.) No tossing cash onto the table right in the middle of the shooters throw.

I never buy in when there is a roll in progress and I wish everyone would follow that policy. Some people just can't seem to resist. I know all of the good stuff about independent events, etc. but I can see the temptation to jump in when a shooter is on a hot roll!

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

2.) No huddling around the shooter

This usually happens when the person violating #1 finds that the only place to fit in at the table is right beside the shooter. Instead of giving the shooter room (I either turn sideways or step back from the table), they force their way in and crowd the shooter.

Yeah, I know...none of it matters...the roll is the roll...but it sure seems like bad things happen when people break the basic rules of being polite...at least when I am playing!

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

1.) No tossing cash onto the table right in the middle of the shooters throw.

6.) New players should move to positions left of the shooter as oppose to right or in front of the shooter

When I arrive at a craps table, I look to see (1) where any available space is located, (2) where the dice and shooter are, and (3) whether a point is set. If the only available space is in the vicinity of the shooter, I will take it without crowding, but I always ask the shooter whether they prefer that I wait until the end of the point or end of the hand to buy in. Some don't care. If the open space is at the other end of the table, I just wait until the dice are at center to make the buy in, and try not to attract attention from anyone other than the dealer. Hopefully, not too many non-shooters are spooked by the sight of cash.

I concur on all the other points.

as far as "deliberately"... if you mean you suspect this is one way of sweating the money... I would really doubt that!

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

So you're at the craps table trying to win some money and the dice finally makes its turn to you...

Anyone favor instigating craps etiquette rules and posting them. Simple things like oh....
1.) No tossing cash onto the table right in the middle of the shooters throw.
2.) No huddling around the shooter
3.) No blocking the shooters path by cutting him off. And "no stepping on the shooters toes"
4.) No placing chips in the direct line of sight/roll of the shooter
5.) No breathing smoke into the shooters face
6.) New players should move to positions left of the shooter as oppose to right or in front of the shooter
7.) No playing 2 craps tables at once and jumping back yelling where's my chips/bet/winnings etc.
8.) <sigh> this list would be endless.

Though I agree completely with the etiquette, none of this matters. You're just buying into the superstition that drives the game. I've seen people get six points by throwing the dice backwards (they are facing the other direction). I've seen points hit where it bounces off the player's hands. I've seen points made when it hits the money, the odds, the don't bets, etcetera. We remember the distractions and we always try to put the blame on someone or something else at the end of the throw. My favorite one is the use of anything "holy" at the craps table -- never mention God, prayer, someone from above, or any reference to the bible -- you will SEVEN out, guaranteed, on the next roll (NOT). My second favorite is the appearance of the significant other during a roll. My third favorite is the disruption of a server.

It's good nature, but the truth of the matter is that it's all random. The only exception is the truly rare controlled shooter.

I guess we can all get a bit too plastered or a bit to exuberant at times. I've not knowingly done anything rude at a craps table except to once buy in during the shooter's roll. The stick was glad for the pause since I bought in for three grand which was more than that table would see all day long. I didn't realize what I was doing because I had just had to walk outside to buy cigarettes for my companion and walk all the way back to start gambling at the craps table. I was so mad at the boxman for not comping her to a pack of cigarettes and making me stagger er..uh... walk all that distance.

I try to find a place at the rail and buy in quietly. I often play on the dark side so I try not to be obvious about anything. I do get noticed by the crew since my first bet is often two stacks of equal value side by side and that lets the dealers know they got atleast some action going for them.

I hate loud drunks at a crap table and I hate people who comment about my being on the Don'ts even when I'm the shooter. I try to keep quiet but not be morose, just concentrating on the action. I try to move the dice promptly but if some scenery is passing by I might pause a moment or two.

I realize couples often like to play or some rowdy guy who thinks comments about a chicken dinner are going to be entertaining after 15,000 repetitions, but I just make my bets and try not to argue with anyone.

Appreciate all the comments. Also not surprised that many of us craps enthusiasts share similar feelings about the whole etiquette experience.

Question, how would you switch your bets to the Don't side if you're shooting and you originally have a long passline with odds + place bets. Any opinions on an optimal risk reduction. Do you start betting the world and removing place bets? Do you leave place bets up and reduce your odds from the passline. Do you reduce place bets and bet the come heavier?

Take down your odds and your place bets immediately. If you are confident that your next roll is going to be the Big Red, place Lay bets to replace your place bets. Don't bother with Come or Don't come. You can't place a don't pass in the middle of a point, but you can Lay the point.

Good luck?

I was playing at a place in the Bahamas, and I swear they were bringing coolers into those games. There was always room at the tables and the tables were mostly cold, choppy at best. Every time a good roll would get under way, here would come the same 2 or 3 older gents. They would throw their cash into the game, and then to make it worse, they would bet these really weird place bet amounts. The dealers were constantly having to stop and figure the payout. If a number hit, they would press some odd ball amount. The other guy was always betting the center of the table. He would throw his money out there, and mumble some bet that no one understood. So they would stop the game to get his bet right. Every time. It was beyond strange. Inevitably, the shooter would 7 out, and the next shooter would 7 out, and the 3 guys would color up and leave. Two hours later, shooter gets on a roll, and here they come again. Same routine. Cash in. Odd place bet amounts. Center bets with total confusion. I watched this routine for 4 days, mostly the same 3 guys all the time.

I wouldn't be so paranoid if the casinos weren't out to get me.

The answer is so simple - switch to the don'ts!!!

this kind of goes back to my thread on 'streaks'. my point at that time was to see if a correlation could be made with anything that we might think begins or, as in this case, ends a streak or momentum. yes you could easily switch your bets or move machines, but the point is if the corresponding occurrance could be identified as RaleighCraps obsereved, then action can be taken sooner instead of too late.

it would be interesting to see what would happen if everytime these three guys show up everyone would just cash out and take their winnings. i wonder how long these guys would stay at the table. then as soon as they leave everyone returns. its a game in the casino, and the game is not just at the tables or in front of the machine.

.

The points regarding proper etiquette are well said, and should be followed

The rest of this discussion is funny, considering we're on a site dedicated to odds and probability. I don't even believe in notion of dice control, so all of this discussion of hot/cold and "streaks" is comedic. But its all entertainment anyway, so if you want to believe that more power to you.

Quote: ruascott

The points regarding proper etiquette are well said, and should be followed

The rest of this discussion is funny, considering we're on a site dedicated to odds and probability. I don't even believe in notion of dice control, so all of this discussion of hot/cold and "streaks" is comedic. But its all entertainment anyway, so if you want to believe that more power to you.

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others. And since my last two winning sessions involved a green shirt, I guess I don't need to tell you I am packing all green shirts for my next trip. If I thought it would help, I would hop in a circle on 1 foot before I throw the dice too. As you have pointed out, we are talking about entertainment, so straying from the pure mathematics adds some personality to the board. Otherwise, how many different ways is there to state the HA on a PL bet is 1.41%? A dozen threads would cover the topics and we would be done.

Quote: ruascott

...considering we're on a site dedicated to odds and probability.


...all of this discussion of hot/cold and "streaks" is comedic.

I think "dedicated" is not the right word.

If this site and the WOO site is dedicated to anything, it's gambling knowledge.

Oh, sure, most of the members here are either more knowledgeable about the odds and probabilities than the average person, or they want to learn more about it.


But to suggest that streaks are comedic is absurd. Streaks happen. We've all experienced them. The math shows how often a streak will occur.

The comedic part is that we have all tried to recognize when they are happening so we can get in on them. While streaks can easily be recognized, they can end at any moment.

How often have you been at a craps table and the shooter throws 3 elevens in a row, and you're just itching to drop a chip on the Yo, but you say to yourself "Sure. I do that and the streak will end...."

The line at the table I've always used is "Bet a yo, see a yo". Never does this amuse the dealers since they always want you to bet the high vig bet. This also doesn't amuse them; "Oh, look at that, a fourth roll yo!" ESP would be nice for the players as the dealers always seem to let on that they have it.....

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others. And since my last two winning sessions involved a green shirt, I guess I don't need to tell you I am packing all green shirts for my next trip. If I thought it would help, I would hop in a circle on 1 foot before I throw the dice too. As you have pointed out, we are talking about entertainment, so straying from the pure mathematics adds some personality to the board. Otherwise, how many different ways is there to state the HA on a PL bet is 1.41%? A dozen threads would cover the topics and we would be done.

Point well taken...a pure mathematics board would get pretty boring pretty quickly. :-)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The comedic part is that we have all tried to recognize when they are happening so we can get in on them. While streaks can easily be recognized, they can end at any moment.

How often have you been at a craps table and the shooter throws 3 elevens in a row, and you're just itching to drop a chip on the Yo, but you say to yourself "Sure. I do that and the streak will end...."

I guess that was my point about comedic as well....not that streaks don't happen, but that all gamblers are prone to use them to adjust their betting. I've given up the discussion regarding the roulette table LEDs when in a casino, as for every person I convince of its fallacy, 2 more look at me like a fool.

I could blame myself for icing the table a couple times, lol. The lady throwing the dice before me was on a hot streak, which had been the trend at the table most of the night. I was the next thrower and made a point and then 7'd out. I fled the table to play BJ and it was cold the rest of the night. Coincedence of course, but people with serious money on the table don't see it that way.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others.

I take it you've followed these people around and observed many of their sessions, right?

Quote: RaleighCraps

And since my last two winning sessions involved a green shirt, I guess I don't need to tell you I am packing all green shirts for my next trip. If I thought it would help, I would hop in a circle on 1 foot before I throw the dice too.

The question is, do you thing wearing green shirts will help? Why not hop in a circle on one foot when you shoot?

Quote: RaleighCraps

As you have pointed out, we are talking about entertainment, so straying from the pure mathematics adds some personality to the board. Otherwise, how many different ways is there to state the HA on a PL bet is 1.41%? A dozen threads would cover the topics and we would be done.

As I have pointed out many times, there is a lot more involved in the math of craps than the HA. So, what you are saying is that people should either believe in baseless superstitions like those in this thread, or PRETEND to believe in them in order to add interest.

As to streaks, with which of these erroneous statements do you agree?
1. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so I should place the six and keep pressing.
2. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so the supply in the Cosmos is down, and I should get off the six.

Since you have WinCraps now, why don't you write an auto-bet file that just keeps track of the number of rolls between sixes, then examine the results. See whether the occurrence of the next six correlates at all with the number of sixes in the last 36 rolls, or something like that.

Past results have zero predictive value in random events. End of story. Unfortunately, that's not very interesting, I guess.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: goatcabin

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others.

As to streaks, with which of these erroneous statements do you agree?
1. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so I should place the six and keep pressing.
2. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so the supply in the Cosmos is down, and I should get off the six.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

I hear #1 so many times. "Gee that six sure is hitting often, better place it." Given the probability is set in stone for the 6 rolling, if it hits quite a few times (or any other # besides 7) in a row I'm not inclined to chase after it, though I place 6 and 8 every time anyway.

Quote: derik999

Quote: goatcabin

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others.

As to streaks, with which of these erroneous statements do you agree?
1. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so I should place the six and keep pressing.
2. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so the supply in the Cosmos is down, and I should get off the six.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

I hear #1 so many times. "Gee that six sure is hitting often, better place it."

When you hear somebody say that, ask him/her, "Do you think those dice have more sixes in them than other dice?"
There was a guy who was referred to on rec.gambling.craps who believes that every die comes out of production with a set "future history", i.e. as though it had a certain "supply" of each number. Does anyone on this board actually believe something like that? If not, what in the name of sense could make a pair of dice more likely to come out six than other dice or these dice at another time? (Of course, there's always "controlled shooters" to consider, if you consider that stuff.)

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Here's the way I see 'smart' craps players utilizing streaks: why not bet on something after it has come up a lot? Yes, we all know the math here and that the probability is the same each roll. However, if you are going to place an occasional inside bet or number (meaning deviating away from the line/odds), why not pick your place to do it after something has hit a lot? The worst-case scenario: you lose. Best-case scenario: you win, everyone is happy, and you look like a genius. I like to place a yo bet for the dealers if the yo has hit a lot of times in a row.

Of course, this isn't a strategy but it can make the game more fun.

Quote: goatcabin

Quote: derik999

Quote: goatcabin

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others.

As to streaks, with which of these erroneous statements do you agree?
1. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so I should place the six and keep pressing.
2. There have been a lot of sixes lately, so the supply in the Cosmos is down, and I should get off the six.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

I hear #1 so many times. "Gee that six sure is hitting often, better place it."

When you hear somebody say that, ask him/her, "Do you think those dice have more sixes in them than other dice?"
There was a guy who was referred to on rec.gambling.craps who believes that every die comes out of production with a set "future history", i.e. as though it had a certain "supply" of each number. Does anyone on this board actually believe something like that? If not, what in the name of sense could make a pair of dice more likely to come out six than other dice or these dice at another time? (Of course, there's always "controlled shooters" to consider, if you consider that stuff.)

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Controlled shooters drive me nuts. It seems like everybody that plays at 7 Cedars is putting dice together with their number combo of choice at the top. I just grab the darn things, give em' a slight shake and let them roll.

Quote: derik999

Controlled shooters drive me nuts. It seems like everybody that plays at 7 Cedars is putting dice together with their number combo of choice at the top. I just grab the darn things, give em' a slight shake and let them roll.

You've posted a couple of times how the craps table keeps taking all your hard earned BJ winnings. Now we know why!
I see another dice setter about to find religion..... :-)

Quote: RaleighCraps

You've posted a couple of times how the craps table keeps taking all your hard earned BJ winnings. Now we know why!
I see another dice setter about to find religion..... :-)

Sorry, not quite getting the point, lol. Are you saying I should take up dice setting?

Quote: goatcabin

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others.

I take it you've followed these people around and observed many of their sessions, right?

Cheers,
Alan Shank

My father-in-law was one of those lucky people. I could circle a parking lot for hours and never find a spot closer than 15 rows, whereas, he would pull in and a spot would open up right by the door. Was he lucky all the time? I don't know, but he sure was lucky every time I was with him.

Or how about the people who win the lottery multiple times? It is one thing to beat the odds once, but more than once?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Quote: goatcabin

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do I truly 'believe' in hot/cold streaks? Not really, but some people definitely seem to be luckier than others.

I take it you've followed these people around and observed many of their sessions, right?

Cheers,
Alan Shank

My father-in-law was one of those lucky people. I could circle a parking lot for hours and never find a spot closer than 15 rows, whereas, he would pull in and a spot would open up right by the door. Was he lucky all the time? I don't know, but he sure was lucky every time I was with him.

Or how about the people who win the lottery multiple times? It is one thing to beat the odds once, but more than once?

You understand, of course, the difference between the odds against winning the lottery twice, before playing, and the odds against winning the lottery twice, after having won it once.

There are a lot of people in the world who look for parking spaces; there are a lot of people in the world who gamble in various ways. "Luck" is nothing but random variation in a positive (for the individual) direction; extreme luck is just the ends of the tails of the distribution of expected results.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: teddys

Here's the way I see 'smart' craps players utilizing streaks: why not bet on something after it has come up a lot? Yes, we all know the math here and that the probability is the same each roll. However, if you are going to place an occasional inside bet or number (meaning deviating away from the line/odds), why not pick your place to do it after something has hit a lot? The worst-case scenario: you lose. Best-case scenario: you win, everyone is happy, and you look like a genius. I like to place a yo bet for the dealers if the yo has hit a lot of times in a row.

Of course, this isn't a strategy but it can make the game more fun.

I agree that, if you are going to make some inside bet that you normally avoid, there is no particular reason NOT to make it when that number has hit more than usually; however, there is also no reason not to make it because it HASN'T hit recently. "Due" theory is just as good as "Streak" theory - i.e. useless.

The problem, as I see it, is that some people actually believe the probabilities are now different, which may lead to their betting more than they can afford. Reliance on a false doctrine can be dangerous to one's bankroll. So, that's my "worst-case scenario".

BTW, I do occasionally make two-way hardways or bets on 2/12, etc. and even a rare $5 horn high 12 (2), just to chase that 30:1 payoff, but I harbor no illusions about their chances of winning.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: goatcabin

BTW, I do occasionally make two-way hardways or bets on 2/12, etc. and even a rare $5 horn high 12 (2), just to chase that 30:1 payoff, but I harbor no illusions about their chances of winning.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Now that surprises me! I could see you doing an occasional hardway, but a 2/12 or a horn bet? Never would have dreamed that. I can honestly say I have never made a Horn bet in my life, even after rolling three straight yo's last time I was shooting.
So overall, do you think you are ahead or behind on your horn bets ?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Now that surprises me! I could see you doing an occasional hardway, but a 2/12 or a horn bet? Never would have dreamed that. I can honestly say I have never made a Horn bet in my life, even after rolling three straight yo's last time I was shooting.
So overall, do you think you are ahead or behind on your horn bets ?

I'm pretty sure I'm behind, but it's possible that my $57 win on a 12 a couple of years ago is close to what I've lost on those bets, which are RARE. I look at those bets this way: if I am behind, I will only be $5 more behind (or only $1 if it's a 2 or 12 bet), and if I do win, it will bring me back substantially. These bets have a big upside and high variance, so it only takes a small deviation from expectation to be ahead. However, if you bet those as a large part of your bet handle, the high vig will drag you under. Did you know that the probability of at least two 12s in 36 rolls is .264?
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Chart the table, and go with the flow. Do or don't?

Never change horses in the middle of the river. That's a recipe for disaster.

Should one make a place bet with numbers on on the don't?