Playing For Comps

So, I completely understanding that gambling to earn comps is a losing bet as it is clearly cheaper to just pay for the things you want, rather than lose more than that to get it for "free". That being said, here's a bit of a variation on the question about how to gamble to maximize comps.

I don't really care (within reason) what game I play so long as it doesn't have a ridiculous house edge (or element of risk where appropriate). Let's define "reasonable" as a house edge <= 2.5%. My only real criteria for choosing a game is that the requisite strategy is not terribly complicated. I often play blackjack using basic strategy and the ace/five count and that is about as complicated as I am willing to go. I don't really want to learn a new game with a strategy more complicated than say Three Card Poker (e.g. Ultimate Texas Hold'em is probably out).

So my question to you is (and I would greatly appreciate your response), given that I really only care about being in action while giving up an edge <= 2.5% or in that neighbourhood, what game should I play to maximize the value of comps (especially future room offers)? The obvious answer to me is to play the game with the highest theoretical loss (or house win) per hour but if there is another way to come at the problem, I'd love to hear it.

You could do craps, but many places don't rate the odds bet. That bet will lower the house edge (in % terms), but it probably won't help with the comps.

You could do single-0 roulette and play an even-money bet.

Or baccarat, which is basically a more entertaining coin-flip.

Ultimate Texas Hold'em, despite your concerns, is probably your best bet for comp hustling. The game plays slow and the casinos seem to be comping at a high level on the Ante bets. There are a number of strategies out there that perform well and are not too complex.

Quote: semaj

So, I completely understanding that gambling to earn comps is a losing bet as it is clearly cheaper to just pay for the things you want, rather than lose more than that to get it for "free".

First of all this mentality is wrong. You need to re-program how you think. Playing for comps and cashback, particularly bounce back mail offers, which tend to be higher can be an advantage play. It doesn't have to be a losing proposition. Last year my partner and I concentrated more on this particular area and the results accounted for roughly 25% of my income. Now most of that was the result of $30 grand in prize and contest winnings of contests and drawings that I was entered as a result of my casino play. I won a car, $2000 worth of gasoline, almost $4000 worth of casino free play in drawings and $7500 cash (weekly winner in football contest, where my entry was comped from play).

Now even without all this prize money, which I wonder how sustainable is going forward, I was ahead 9 grand just from mailer bounce back offers. In other words, the free play and matchplays from these monthly offers were over $9000 more than the small losses that generated this play. This was my goal to begin with. All that prize winnings were just extra, that frankly caught me by surprise. And these totals don't reflect all the comped and discounted meal. My partner and I eat at a casino at least once a day, usually more like 10 times a week and we never pay for a meal. Everything is comped or paid with points. best yet is using 2 fo 1 coupon and then paying with points, which stretch your points even further. I don't want to place face value on these benefits, I prefer just to think if we ate at home each of those meals that our grocery bill would be much much higher. I haven't even counted in room offers, because I use very few of the many offers I receive.

So my advice to you is to change your mindset. Find and play the games, like video poker, with the smallest house edge and then play only the required amounts to generate such offers. This part takes some homework, but you will figure it out. If you are a Vegas local, it's all about the bounce back mail offers. They will be disproportionately high. Usually an amount of free play good each week, 4 times throughout the month in an attempt to get you in several times during the month. Some places have more than 4 periods in there month, breaking it down to 6-8, 3 or 4 day segments that each offer is good for. Other places like M resort have specific single days where you have XX amount of free play. Out of towners get a different mailer, instead of targeting certain days or period, they usually get one bigger free play amount which is good anytime through out the month. Although the total amount is less than the total of many individual days or periods, this offer is actually beneficial, because your daily average doesn't drop as you play through the offers, so out of state address is beneficial.

The trick is to give only the amount of play necessary to generate a certain level of offers. Once I have established what that level is, I even count down my hands or rounds played to get to that level and nothing more. lol I didn't vote in the poll. I guess out of the choice, I would pick 8-5 JoB, but geez, you can and gotta do a whole lot better than 8-5. lol

In many places, pushing the same nickels back and forth at a BJ table for about 45 minutes is enough to get you 2 buffets.

For relatively small amounts of action, I find Binion to be generous enough:
5$ per point for slots, 8$ per point for VP
20 points per comp dollar
40 points per dollar cash back
Spin and win game for 5/40/300 points daily.
So, as far as VP is concerned: .625% back on comps, .3125% cash back [total .9375%]
I believe the prizes for the 300 tier range from 25$ off food/a pretty comfy jacket [retails ~30$], most various forms of 50$ [food/freeplay/promo chips] to 100$ and 1000$ cash.

They don't seem to give much in the way of free nights though.

Quote: GH

In many places, pushing the same nickels back and forth at a BJ table for about 45 minutes is enough to get you 2 buffets.

Where do you go where 45min of 5$ BJ gets you food? By my estimate, you'd be lucky to get a drink ticket out of it.

Quote: GH

In many places, pushing the same nickels back and forth at a BJ table for about 45 minutes is enough to get you 2 buffets.

There are a couple problems with playing blackjack. 1.) You must play rated, so if you are playing with an advantage, they have your info. 2.) Some places (mostly strip) won't even rate you if you are playing less than $25 table. The OP didn't specify, but I got the feeling (not sure why) that he was talking low limit. 3.) and probably most important. BJ play generates little in comps and cashback benefits. Almost all places have a tier system where they determine your worth. There are 3 or 4 levels. I forget the exact terminology told to me by a pit friend, but it was something like 'bad player', 'average player', 'basic strategy player', 'advantage player'. Once you have been evaluated as either an advantage player or even a basic strategy player you will generate almost nothing from BJ play.

Quote: Venthus

Where do you go where 45min of 5$ BJ gets you food? By my estimate, you'd be lucky to get a drink out of it.

* Horseshoe, Tunica. They even have a sign at the table say'n if you play for 30 minutes, you get 1 buffet.
* Fitzgerald, Tunica.
* Orleans, Vegas.
* Gold Coast, Vegas.
* California, Vegas.
* El Cortez, Vegas; but you gotta play the $25 table. You usually get $30 from the cafe.

Quote: GH

* Orleans, Vegas.
* Gold Coast, Vegas.
* California, Vegas.

...Seriously? The Orleans is one of my preferred stomping grounds of my party and table play has never gotten us anything. (Now machine play... my mailbox never empties.)

Quote: Venthus

...Seriously? The Orleans is one of my preferred stomping grounds of my party and table play has never gotten us anything. (Now machine play... my mailbox never empties.)

It helps if you are Asian, and ask a Gweilo pit bss.

Back to the original subject. Playing for comps is something all the casinos want us to do and is a losing proposition. People who say it's an advantage play do nothing but make it up because it isn't. I've played in promotional situations before and received so many free things and gas cards and cash coupons in the mail that it made my head spin, and spin right into the only mode that I could accept: that it made me a winner at day's end. Forget that my pockets were nearly empty. That meant nothing. I put so much value on all the comps etc. that it didn't matter. Just like everybody does. Casinos wouldn't have these specials if it didn't make them a pile of money every time. And if there happened to be some players who always beat them up, they wouldn't be allowed to play. Casino gambling 101.

Quote: kewlj

So my advice to you is to change your mindset. Find and play the games, like video poker, with the smallest house edge and then play only the required amounts to generate such offers. This part takes some homework, but you will figure it out.

I see what you are saying and if I were a regular advantage player I would be totally with you. My situation is that I get to Vegas once or twice a year and would like to maximize the value of what a casino is willing to comp me while I am there. I don't really have the opportunity to figure out through trial and error just how much I need to generate a certain offer so my plan is to play a game that I enjoy while choosing said game to maximize my future offers.

Quote: kewlj

I guess out of the choice, I would pick 8-5 JoB, but geez, you can and gotta do a whole lot better than 8-5. lol

I stay at Mandalay Bay (the wife loves the pools so I don't have much choice), and while I haven't played much VP on my last few trips the quick survey of machines that I did, 8/5 was all I saw. I will be on the lookout for full-pay machines this time as I am heavily leaning toward playing JoB since I already have the strategy memorized. Keep in mind I am looking to play at the $1 level.

Quote: Venthus

They don't seem to give much in the way of free nights though.

The hotel is closed.
http://www.binions.com/lodging/index.php

You probably shouldn't expect VP comp rates to be the same as slots. Perhaps someone can elaborate.

Quote: whatme

The hotel is closed.
http://www.binions.com/lodging/index.php

It's been closed for a while.
http://www.lvrj.com/business/binions-to-close-hotel-78206172.html
The reason the casino is allowed to remain open is because the place was built before the Gaming Commission required casinos to have hotels.

Quote: iluvdisco33

Back to the original subject. Playing for comps is something all the casinos want us to do and is a losing proposition. People who say it's an advantage play do nothing but make it up because it isn't. I've played in promotional situations before and received so many free things and gas cards and cash coupons in the mail that it made my head spin, and spin right into the only mode that I could accept: that it made me a winner at day's end. Forget that my pockets were nearly empty. That meant nothing. I put so much value on all the comps etc. that it didn't matter. Just like everybody does. Casinos wouldn't have these specials if it didn't make them a pile of money every time. And if there happened to be some players who always beat them up, they wouldn't be allowed to play. Casino gambling 101.

The thing is that I am going to gamble anyway. I just gamble for recreation so minimizing the house edge isn't my primary concern. I understand that this costs me money but I'm generally enjoying myself just by being in action and am not too picky on which game. I figure why not choose the strategy that maximizes my comps?

It may turn out that this is as simple as choose the game that I am willing to play that has the highest house edge. If that is the case, as I suspected in my original post, I'll probably just go back to playing blackjack using BS and the Ace/Five count so that I figure to roughly break even on an H17 game (couldn't seem to find any S17 games at Mandalay Bay with minimums of $25-$50 back in September) or playing the best JoB $1 machine that I can find.

However, if certain games are aggressively comped (e.g. Ultimate Texas Hold'em) and don't require a lot of study to be proficient in, I'd rather be playing those. For example, if Three Card Poker is seemingly disproportionately comped relative to its house edge, I would just as soon play that as the above mentioned games.

I agree with you that playing for comps is a losing proposition; in fact I agreed in the OP. However, I'm going to gamble anyway so I may as well get back as much as I can.

Quote: iluvdisco33

Back to the original subject. Playing for comps is something all the casinos want us to do and is a losing proposition. People who say it's an advantage play do nothing but make it up because it isn't. I've played in promotional situations before and received so many free things and gas cards and cash coupons in the mail that it made my head spin, and spin right into the only mode that I could accept: that it made me a winner at day's end. Forget that my pockets were nearly empty. That meant nothing. I put so much value on all the comps etc. that it didn't matter. Just like everybody does. Casinos wouldn't have these specials if it didn't make them a pile of money every time. And if there happened to be some players who always beat them up, they wouldn't be allowed to play. Casino gambling 101.

You are funny, iluvdisco33. Sounds like you are saying you have tried to run a 4 minute mile and have been unsuccessful, therefore a 4 minute mile can't be done. lol Yes, I'll bet you get quite nice offers from the casino industry. You are just what they are looking for. You are just what those marketing departments are all about. :)

deleted

Quote: semaj

I stay at Mandalay Bay (the wife loves the pools so I don't have much choice), and while I haven't played much VP on my last few trips the quick survey of machines that I did, 8/5 was all I saw. I will be on the lookout for full-pay machines this time as I am heavily leaning toward playing JoB since I already have the strategy memorized. Keep in mind I am looking to play at the $1 level.

Since job 8/5 has a 97.3% payback you might want to look for a new game to play at Mandalay Bay. Link is vpfree2
http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/mandalay-bay-hotel-casino

check out the games and see if one of them is to your likings. If you do enjoy vp it's the best choice for comps. Keep in mind you can play slow or fast, so if you would like to take your time and relax the casino won't bother you. If you plan on being there a while and would like lots of drinks (with and w/o alcohol) you should tip the server $5 when you place first order and $1 when you get each order. I know tipping is a touchy subject but this should be considered an ap move for drinks as they will be flowing.

Please don't play for comps while ap situations exist they are only worth what you value them at. I for one count free play as cash, but almost all promos are worthless to me even if I want it.

The best part about playing Ultimate Texas Holdem properly is you look like a crazy person. I believe this leads to good comps (at least until someone figures out you're not crazy). I also think the game is easier to learn than the strategy cards make it look. The post-flop play is very intuitive. You just need to memorize the pre-flop plays.

To get proficient in UTH you should do two things:
1) learn a strategy:
-either buy James Grosjean's strategy, which I understand is simple and powerful. I think you buy it here for $6: http://www.shoplva.com/products/ultimate-texas-holdem

-or head on over to discountgambling.net and learn an even stronger but maybe less intuitive strategy. I like it, others don't. http://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

2) Practice!
- go to the wizard's game, and tell it to warn you on strategy errors. It's great.
https://wizardofodds.com/play/ultimate-texas-hold-em/

If you wonder why you made a mistake, you can check the discountgambling page for explanations of the most common errors.

Quote: whatme

The hotel is closed.

They share the hotel comps with the 4 Queens.

Generally speaking, slots comp best. Many places in Vegas give a decreased rate for VP (Palms, Silverton, some CETs, Binion's, The M, among others) though not all. I believe Boyd properties all count them equally.

Quote: dwheatley

The best part about playing Ultimate Texas Holdem properly is you look like a crazy person. I believe this leads to good comps (at least until someone figures out you're not crazy). I also think the game is easier to learn than the strategy cards make it look. The post-flop play is very intuitive. You just need to memorize the pre-flop plays.

To get proficient in UTH you should do two things:
1) learn a strategy:
-either buy James Grosjean's strategy, which I understand is simple and powerful. I think you buy it here for $6: http://www.shoplva.com/products/ultimate-texas-holdem

-or head on over to discountgambling.net and learn an even stronger but maybe less intuitive strategy. I like it, others don't. http://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

2) Practice!
- go to the wizard's game, and tell it to warn you on strategy errors. It's great.
https://wizardofodds.com/play/ultimate-texas-hold-em/

If you wonder why you made a mistake, you can check the discountgambling page for explanations of the most common errors.

Great Post.

If you are looking to maximize the "comp game", UTH s is one of your best choices for sure and will have a nice amount of gambling variance. UTH strategy isn't that much harder than JoB anyway.

Memorize preflop (this helps simplify post-draw strategy a lot because some of the flop strategy at discount gambling is redundant if you play preflop correct).

2X if you:
pair the flop (check pocket 2s until river unless you flop a flush/set/straight)
make a open-ended straight (OESD) + flush draw
Make OESD of JT98 or higher on non-suited flop. (Except: 98 on JTx flop)
These are the biggest things. There are more marginal decisions that come up, but knowing these is 95% of the battle. Discount gambling has a much more exhaustive list.

Call 1X river if you:
Are NOT playing the board and less than 21 cards can beat your hand.
ARE playing the board and less than 18 cards can beat your hand.

Examples:
Not Playing Board:
Fold T6 on AK542 board: 3 As, 3 Ks, 4 Qs, 4Js, 3 5s, 3 4s, 3 2s = 23 cards that beat you
Call T6 on a AK552 board: 3 As, 3 Ks, 4 Qs, 4Js, 2 5s, 3 2s = 18 cards that beat you

Playing Board:
Fold 76 on a AA44T board: 2 As, 4 Ks, 4 Qs, 4 Js, 3 Ts, 2 4s = 19 cards that beat you
Call 76 on a AA44J board: 2 As, 4 Ks, 4 Qs, 3 Js, 2 4s = 15 cards that beat you

Strangely enough, the best games at Mandalay Bay are either Deuces games for quarters, or Bonus/Double Bonus for $2 a credit. If you are looking to play VP for comps OP, you could play 8/5 Bonus for $10/hand. The strategy is basically the same as JoB. You might have to play 1 line of Spin Poker to pull that off though...lol Personally I would just grind quarter deuces if I was going to try to gain comps there via video poker.

Quote: iluvdisco33

Back to the original subject. Playing for comps is something all the casinos want us to do and is a losing proposition. People who say it's an advantage play do nothing but make it up because it isn't.
Casinos wouldn't have these specials if it didn't make them a pile of money every time.

Incorrect. It makes them a pile of money most of the time, but not every time. I have seen people use their match play for one bet, win, and leave. No other business transacted.
Of course most players will give back the value of the offer, and then some, but certainly not all.

Quote: SOOPOO

Incorrect. It makes them a pile of money most of the time, but not every time. I have seen people use their match play for one bet, win, and leave. No other business transacted.
Of course most players will give back the value of the offer, and then some, but certainly not all.

Yeah, I decently stuck it to a casino one hour away from my house this past year. They had a new member loss rebate promo up to $500. I collected hundreds of dollars in comps/free play based on my first day of play (mostly 8/5 Bonus for dollars) before they wised up and cut me off. Generally though, playing for comps is a risky proposition, and many people lose more than their comp value in any given gaming trip.

Quote: GH

It's been closed for a while.
http://www.lvrj.com/business/binions-to-close-hotel-78206172.html
The reason the casino is allowed to remain open is because the place was built before the Gaming Commission required casinos to have hotels.

why did the Gaming Commission require all casinos to have a hotel?

Quote: 100xOdds

why did the Gaming Commission require all casinos to have a hotel?

Because they want to keep Southern Nevada as a "resort" destination. BTW, all new casinos also have to have a bar open 24/7 and a full-service restaurant open 24/7 in addition to the 200-room hotel.

Quote: 100xOdds

why did the Gaming Commission require all casinos to have a hotel?

Because, if they don't they can only have no more than 15 machines and zero table games:
http://www.eaglerockgaming.com/nevadagaming.htm

Thanks for all of the advice, everyone. I ordered a copy of the strategy card for James Grosjean's UTH strategy and will probably grind a lot of quarter deuces and mix in some UTH and blackjack when I'm looking for a bit more action.

Here's hoping variance will be on my side and future comps won't be the highlight of my gambling!

Quote: semaj

Thanks for all of the advice, everyone. I ordered a copy of the strategy card for James Grosjean's UTH strategy and will probably grind a lot of quarter deuces and mix in some UTH and blackjack when I'm looking for a bit more action.

Here's hoping variance will be on my side and future comps won't be the highlight of my gambling!

Don't forget you can practice your UTH at WoO.

As for variance: My mother once bought in at PH, put a 5$ bet and was informed it was a 10$ table. Well, it's kind of silly to buy in and run off without doing ANYTHING, so she went in. For a straight flush. Then we ran. =P

Unfortunately there is no single answer. Every casino probably has a different formula for awarding comps. Comps may be greater for players on games with a higher house edge.

I identified what I think is a positive play on $100/coin video poker at Harrah's Rincon on games that normally return 99.2% because of bounce back, free play, comps plus the ability to convert regular comp dollars into either additional free play or "cash equivalents" such as gas cards, department store gift cards, and just recently Visa gift cards were added; plus increasing the chance for winning big prizes in drawings that will take place in 2013. But, I don't have the bankroll to play $100 video poker.

My biggest concern is simply that the games that favor the player usually have the lower or lowest comp levels.

Can playing for comps be worth it?
In my case, I believe it has been worth it. I have been playing craps, taking 4, mostly 3 day trips, each year, although there have been some 4 and 5 day trips in there as well. Over the last 5 years my wife and I have been to Vegas 12 times. I have paid for our airfare 9x, and 3x the airfare was covered. I have not paid for a single hotel room in vegas, including a 7 night stay at Ceasar's in a very nice room.
I have used Total Reward credits for 95% of my food purchases in Vegas. I tip 25-35% on meals, and that is cash out of my pocket.
My wife and I go to Biloxi, MS 2 to 3 times a year. I have never paid for the flight, or a room, or a meal. I am not on a comp'd food and beverage plan, but I always have way more comp dollars than I can spend, and we eat at least one meal in the BR Prime each trip.

I would say I have been to Biloxi at least 10 times. If I had to pay, I think they are getting $369 per person for these 3 day trips. So all told, I would say I have probably received more than $9,000 in flights, rooms, food, free play, golf, and free show tickets. Not to mention get-a-ways that my wife and I would not have taken otherwise.
On average, I take $1000/day I am going to be there, for craps. Due to one very good year, I am probably down somewhere between $4k -$8k lifetime for craps. (My other gambling play is negligible, and probably about break even anyway).

So, my conclusion is, comps have had a very real benefit to me.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Can playing for comps be worth it?
In my case, I believe it has been worth it. I have been playing craps, taking 4, mostly 3 day trips, each year, although there have been some 4 and 5 day trips in there as well. Over the last 5 years my wife and I have been to Vegas 12 times. I have paid for our airfare 9x, and 3x the airfare was covered. I have not paid for a single hotel room in vegas, including a 7 night stay at Ceasar's in a very nice room.
I have used Total Reward credits for 95% of my food purchases in Vegas. I tip 25-35% on meals, and that is cash out of my pocket.
My wife and I go to Biloxi, MS 2 to 3 times a year. I have never paid for the flight, or a room, or a meal. I am not on a comp'd food and beverage plan, but I always have way more comp dollars than I can spend, and we eat at least one meal in the BR Prime each trip.

I would say I have been to Biloxi at least 10 times. If I had to pay, I think they are getting $369 per person for these 3 day trips. So all told, I would say I have probably received more than $9,000 in flights, rooms, food, free play, golf, and free show tickets. Not to mention get-a-ways that my wife and I would not have taken otherwise.
On average, I take $1000/day I am going to be there, for craps. Due to one very good year, I am probably down somewhere between $4k -$8k lifetime for craps. (My other gambling play is negligible, and probably about break even anyway).

So, my conclusion is, comps have had a very real benefit to me.

I guess playing for comps means different things to different people. When I hear that I think of someone playing longer than planned or betting more than planned to tweak those comps. I don't see that in your post. I see an informed, sensible player who is going to play regardless and who ends up with good comps. We've all seen folks enjoying their $1000 buffets. Thoughts?

Sometimes I wonder if casinos hire private detective agencies or google someone to determine net worth and base comps on their nest eggs. Sometimes it seems to make sense based on people's play and their offers from things I have seen. Do you guys think anything like this goes on? You wouldn't think so based on first reaction for who appears to be regular players, but you would think determining who good marks are would be good for the casino.

One example was a guy who owned a trucking company was never required to use a players card and a host would even sit and watch him play for hours. He died by now, so he no longer is allowed to do this.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Sometimes I wonder if casinos hire private detective agencies or google someone to determine net worth and base comps on their nest eggs. Sometimes it seems to make sense based on people's play and their offers from things I have seen. Do you guys think anything like this goes on? You wouldn't think so based on first reaction for who appears to be regular players, but you would think determining who good marks are would be good for the casino.

One example was a guy who owned a trucking company was never required to use a players card and a host would even sit and watch him play for hours. He died by now, so he no longer is allowed to do this.

I believe it would be up to the self-initiative of individual hosts.

How is favorable is playing Pai Gow (tiles, to be specific) for comps?

I believe previous posts alluded to UTH as being slow, and a game in which "good" strategy is usually counter intuitive; all of which seems similar to what I have read about PGT...

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Sometimes I wonder if casinos hire private detective agencies or google someone to determine net worth and base comps on their nest eggs. Sometimes it seems to make sense based on people's play and their offers from things I have seen. Do you guys think anything like this goes on? You wouldn't think so based on first reaction for who appears to be regular players, but you would think determining who good marks are would be good for the casino.

One example was a guy who owned a trucking company was never required to use a players card and a host would even sit and watch him play for hours. He died by now, so he no longer is allowed to do this.

When people provide casinos with their date of birth, social security number, phone numbers, checking account and bank information and numbers and email accounts and then happily hand over their license to be scanned I'd say anything is possible.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Sometimes I wonder if casinos hire private detective agencies or google someone to determine net worth and base comps on their nest eggs. Sometimes it seems to make sense based on people's play and their offers from things I have seen. Do you guys think anything like this goes on? You wouldn't think so based on first reaction for who appears to be regular players, but you would think determining who good marks are would be good for the casino.

One example was a guy who owned a trucking company was never required to use a players card and a host would even sit and watch him play for hours. He died by now, so he no longer is allowed to do this.

Unless you are asking for credit. They only need your age and zip code to know what ballpark someone is worth.

However it's more important to know what they play.

Quote: PatrickKiefer

How is favorable is playing Pai Gow (tiles, to be specific) for comps?

I believe previous posts alluded to UTH as being slow, and a game in which "good" strategy is usually counter intuitive; all of which seems similar to what I have read about PGT...

Not good because they know it's slow and they know the house edge is small-ish. Basically, you can expect to get the same comps as you would for Pai Gow Poker; maybe a little better. Betting big (>$100) would help.