Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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August 17th, 2012 at 4:20:31 PM permalink
Quote: Mooseton

The game I was talking about is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giv8jhzwbyA

That's just a link to the bonus round. The game has 6 reels. And 180-200 lines.

I am sure that I'm purposely stopping the 6th reel on the string of wilds. But it just won't matter because the game's winning lines won't reach all the way to the 5th or 6th reel. It's super easy to do on the last reel and not so easy to do on 5th reel. On the 4th reel you can do it but it's pretty tough. On the 4th reel I believe that the "trigger string" of cards then hearts appearing also has a "false trigger string" of those symbols that doesn't have a string of wilds following it. (instead it follows with a string of ring symbols.)

The thing is though, has the rng already stopped during the free games? Is your payout already decided?



Very good, that's what's called a Mega Line machine. Dean Martin's, "Wild Party," is another excellent example of a Mega Line machine. The only difference there is it works somewhat the reverse way with Reels 1 + 2 having only two stops and the rest of the reels having more. I'm not sure how many the rest of them have off of the top of my head, because I've never felt compelled to play that machine or anything like it.

However, like I promised, if I find one and can make it spin for $0.05 or less, I'll figure out what the player retention angle is.

"...lines won't reach all the way to the 5th or 6th reel."

1.) The first thing that you realize, I'm sure, is that the number of stops per reel decreases by one for every increase by one to the number reel you are on. Even IF the reel assignments are all the same, you're going to be less likely to see a Heart, or what have you, on the final reel than on any other reel by virtue of there being less reel stops.

However, the reel assignments are probably not the same. The final reel assignment, I would guess, is hevaily weighted to displaying Wilds precisely for the reason that the lines simply aren't going to make it there very often.

2.) The fourth and fifth reels are probably your, "Near Miss," reels. What this is designed to do is basically (given the propensity to hit Wilds on the sixth reel) make you think that you were really close to hitting a massive payout involving the same symbol or Wild showing up on all six reels. That's going to keep you spinning because the brain naturally recognizes and identifies patterns, the brain will therefore equate being close to the massive payout (compared to previous spins) to a greater liklihood of hitting the massive payout on the next spin...or within the next few...when the liklihood had not actually changed by so much as one-trillionth of a decimal place. The liklihood of any result (on an individual line) is the same for any pull.

3.) There is no such thing as a, "Trigger-String," as such, there are simply reel assignments. Based upon what you have said, some, "Strings," of hearts assigned to the reel are designed to be followed by a, "String," of Wilds, and some are not. There is nothing more or less to that.

4.) There are not as many Wilds on the 4th/5th reels because the machine would be hitting for decent-good payouts all over the place constantly. Again, the purpose of having so many Wilds on the Sixth reel, but not on the 4th/5th is to make you think you have a, "Near-Miss," on a good payout.

The concept is no different than with single-line slot machines. The only difference is that there are no, "Blanks," on this particular video machine. In the case of a single-line slot machine, you could have 1st/2nd reels that are absolutely loaded with symbols and multiplying Wilds, but then have a third reel that is heavily loaded with blanks and low paying symbols. If you need three Sevens, for example, and there are thirty symbols per reel, you could have ten sevens on the first reel, five on the second, and only one on the third.

In this event, you would hit three sevens: 1/3 * 1/6 * 1/30 = .00185 of the time or 1:540, or .185%

However, you would see 7's appear on reels one and two: 1/3 * 1/6 = .05556 of the time, or 1:18 spins, or 5.5556%

I could have the payouts be 250 FOR 1 on one credit bet, 500 FOR 1 on two credits bet and 1199 FOR 1 on three credits bet. The Expected Value of the payout, then, is simply the payout amount multiplied by the probability of the event occurring. If a Credit is $1.00, then:

$250 * .00185 = $0.4625 on a $1.00 bet

$500 * .00185 = $0.9250 on a $2.00 bet

$1199 * .00185 = $2.21815 on a $3.00 bet (MAX CREDITS)

The purpose of this is to make people think they are, "Close," to seeing a result of Three Sevens. If people believe this way, then they will continue to feed money into the machine knowing that the Jackpot is, "Right around the corner." The problem is that the Jackpot is NOT right around the corner, and all a result of Two Sevens means is that you have lost!

It can fairly be said that if you expect to see Three Sevens 1:540 and Two (1st/2nd reel) 1:18, that you are expected to see 540/18 = 30, a Seven on the 1st/2nd Reel thirty times before you actually see it on all three.

The best part is that the machine is designed not to show, "All Blanks," on the third reel. If you have a blank, then you will see the next two results above and below.

If my RNG assignment on the thirty symbols is 1-Seven 2-17-Blank 18-Triple Bar 19-25-Blank 26-Single Bar 27-Double Bar 28-30-Blank, then if the RNG stops on 6, you will see the blank in the middle, the Seven above and the Triple-Bar below.

Now the Three-Sevens Jackpot appears to be even closer, if only that symbol had went down just half an inch!!!

Brilliant!!!

5.) The other thing that you have to realize, if you are playing Max Lines, is that the machine can be really liberal with wins on Reels 1-3 or maybe 1-4 because you can, "Win," but still lose money on the spin!!! This is because some lines will hit while others are simultaneously missing, and the Line Pays upon which you did get paid do not compensate for the total bet.

This was a brilliant idea as soon as the technology for Video Slots was realized. It increases what we call, "Hit Rate." For example, those QuickHits machines that I was discussing in my previous post ALL hit more than 50% of the time if you are playing Max Lines!!! Again, brilliant! The players think they are winning when they are actually losing, or even if they realize they are losing, they still think the machine is hitting pretty consistently.

Increase enjoyment, increase revenue.

BONUS GAMES:

The RNG operates on a per spin basis when you are playing anything other than Free Games, and I would imagine it operates the same way during Free Games (though I can't be 100% sure) for a few reasons:

1.) Playing Time

-The faster a player plays, the faster a casino makes money. The goal of a casino is to average a certain amount of revenue per machine, per hour, during all hours of operation. It is for this reason that new machines are always coming out, why you will sometimes see new machines installed in a casino that already had those types of machines, and why you will occasionally see unprofitable machines disappear from the casino floor.

The point of all of this is that if there were some way to skip past all of the free games, by pressing something that might say, "See Results," or something to that effect, whereby the results of each, "Spin," would instantaneously be displayed on the machine, one right after the other, with no spinning, the casinos would be all for that! The players would be playing faster, the machine would make more money per hour.

The fact that there is no button by which one can quickly view the results of all of the, "Spins," in succession, leads me to believe that the RNG does not, pre-select the results. Further, there could also be a, "See pay," by which a player could skip the Free Games entirely and simply see the total monetary value of said Free Games...even faster.

2.) Programming

-Why would you program the RNG to behave differently situationally? That would just result in time (money) lost for whatever company designed the slot machine, and it wouldn't really serve a purpose to any of the parties involved if it is not going to make the games go any faster.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. I love talking about slots!
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Mission146
Mission146
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August 17th, 2012 at 4:44:43 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

There are places where slot machines must require skill. These are typically gray machines in bars and gas stations trying to skirt laws to become an amusement game under Dave and Buster or Chuck E Cheese laws in states without casinos. Virtually all real casinos are going to have slots that cannot have outcomes changed by a stop button.

Harrah's Cherokee is the only casino I can think of that has (or had as I have not been there in years) slots that require(d) skill or could have skill change the outcome of a spin. They had to make their slots play that way so that the machines would fall under the existing NC video poker laws at the time that their license was based on, a law that has since been repealed.



"Skill Games," is a really good one, in some cases!!!

Prior to Ohio finally getting out of the nineteenth century and legalizing gambling, there were many of these so-called, "Skill Games," until State Agencies began cracking down on them pretty heavily.

Do you know how some of them worked?

I'll tell you.

They showed the result of the spin BEFORE you bet, that's it!!!

There would be three denominations you could bet, usually $.05, $0.10 or $0.25, and all three of the denominations would have a different, yet already decided, result. Technically, you did not have to see the result of the next spin if you didn't want to, you had to hit a button to do so.

In effect, if you made a bet knowing it would lose, what you were really doing is betting on the result after the next result, which was unknown to you at that time.

I made a CRAPLOAD of money. OK, maybe not, but the first time I worked here it was a Front Desk Supervisor rather than Manager, so it added about 1/4th to my paycheck to have those machines here, before we had to pull them out.

How it worked was there were any number of people that failed to realize that you could see the result of the spin ahead of time, they just thought it was an ordinary slot machine. These people would play the machine and then leave when they ran out of money in the machine. It was at this point that I would go to the machine they had been playing and hit the button to see the result. If the result was going to be a winning result, I stuck in a dollar, took the win, viewed the next result, and behaved accordingly. I NEVER ONCE made a bet on those machines that I had any chance of losing!!!

Management didn't care, we were compensated for having the machine (I forget by who) and were re-compensated for any payouts. They were getting the money back, anyway.
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Mooseton
Mooseton
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August 17th, 2012 at 6:03:29 PM permalink
Whoa! How could you view the next result before it happened? Good for you. That's one hell of an observation. Can you find a pic of one of these?

Quote:

3.) There is no such thing as a, "Trigger-String," as such, there are simply reel assignments. Based upon what you have said, some, "Strings," of hearts assigned to the reel are designed to be followed by a, "String," of Wilds, and some are not. There is nothing more or less to that.



Well I just made that term up. It's not like I'm making money off of this. Just trying anything other than what everyone else does. But I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone couldn't stop the 6th reel on at least one wild after seeing the Trigger string. Sometimes the wild symbol/s will be just one, most of the time, maybe about 4-5, even alot of the time it will be more than enough to cover every spot on the sixth reel.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
Mission146
Mission146
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August 17th, 2012 at 6:44:35 PM permalink
Quote: Mooseton

Whoa! How could you view the next result before it happened? Good for you. That's one hell of an observation. Can you find a pic of one of these?



It had nothing to do with me, it was a component of the machine, intentional. There was a button that said, "See result," or something to that effect.

I could not find a picture of that exact machine, (in fact, I only found a picture of one machine even similar, though I know of a truck stop outside of Columbus that still has them) but here are the kind of machines I am talking about:

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/06/ohio-bar-game-caught-in-legal-battle/

This one is a, "Game of Skill," because you have to put the Wild symbol in the spot that pays the most money. If one puts the Wild symbol in a non-paying spot, he/she has demonstrated a lack of skill if a paying spot is available.

Anyway, one machine similar to this was a, "Game of Skill," because you could see the result of the spin ahead of time. The machine looked almost exactly the same as the one pictured.

Quote:

Well I just made that term up. It's not like I'm making money off of this. Just trying anything other than what everyone else does. But I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone couldn't stop the 6th reel on at least one wild after seeing the Trigger string. Sometimes the wild symbol/s will be just one, most of the time, maybe about 4-5, even alot of the time it will be more than enough to cover every spot on the sixth reel.



It's fine, I wasn't criticizing your term, in fact, if the Wilds only follow the Hearts on that reel, then you are basically correct to call it that. That's just not how I would have phrased it, to me, they are just reel assignments.

To the rest:

1.) You are not doing anything to detract from your result by playing this way because the result was determined by the RNG as soon as you pressed the, "Spin," button. Your actions will not change the result unless it is specifically labelled a skill game. Because this is the case, you are free to do as you like.

It should be mentioned, however, that at a -ER, you are losing your money faster if you make the machine stop at its already determined result faster. Once again, this has no effect, either positive or negative, on that or any future spin. Thus, if that is what you want to do, and you feel like you are somehow controlling the result, then feel that way and have fun...that's what they are there for, to have fun.

2.) You are not doing other than what everyone else does, however. You are putting money into the machine, and you are spinning the reels. It is the only option aside from not playing.

3.) The only, "Bad," decision you can make at a slot machine is by not max betting on a Progressive or any machine where the payouts (compared to Line or Amount Bet) are not perfectly graduated. In my hypothetical machine with the 7's above, you would always want to Bet Max, otherwise you would reduce the ER.

There are also machines, such as Blazing Sevens, in which certain results do not count for anything unless you are betting a certain number of Credits/Line. You may go to WizardofOdds.com and look up the, "Deconstructing Blazing Sevens," page if you are interested in seeing a breakdown of how that works.

Finally, there are machines that have a perfectly graduated payout in relation to Credits per Line bet, but have a bonus if you hit for something on the 9th Payline as opposed to any other payline. In such cases, you may bet any number of credits/line that you wish, but if you do not play at least one credit on all nine lines, you are making a bad decision.
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Mission146
Mission146
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August 17th, 2012 at 6:47:21 PM permalink
Quote: Mooseton

Sometimes the wild symbol/s will be just one, most of the time, maybe about 4-5, even alot of the time it will be more than enough to cover every spot on the sixth reel.



Four or Five? Wait a minute, looking at the YouTube video to which you linked me, don't you mean the first reel? There are only two symbols on the sixth reel.

EDIT: Never mind, it spins around during Bonus Games. What a pointless feature.
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rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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August 17th, 2012 at 6:52:51 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


EDIT: Never mind, it spins around during Bonus Games. What a pointless feature.



That's actually a pretty powerful feature, because the wilds are expanding. Here's video of the bonus in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw47dEWvDc0
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Mission146
Mission146
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August 17th, 2012 at 7:16:57 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

That's actually a pretty powerful feature, because the wilds are expanding. Here's video of the bonus in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw47dEWvDc0



That's true, but I don't like it.

It increases the importance of hitting the Free Games to a level I find absolutely intolerable. I would much rather have slow and steady pays with Free Games operating on the same premise of the base game any day of the week. However, assuming the ER of that machine and any other machine of that denomination is the same, it's simply a player-preference issue and matter of opinion.
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Mooseton
Mooseton
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August 17th, 2012 at 10:48:00 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


It's fine, I wasn't criticizing your term, in fact, if the Wilds only follow the Hearts on that reel, then you are basically correct to call it that. That's just not how I would have phrased it, to me, they are just reel assignments.



I was pointing out that if you see a run of decks of cards symbols and then immediately followed with a run of hearts then That is when there will be either a run of wilds or at the minimum just one wild symbol.

I'd like it if you gave the game a try and then tried in the free games to do it on the second reel.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
Mission146
Mission146
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August 17th, 2012 at 11:31:36 PM permalink
Quote: Mooseton



I was pointing out that if you see a run of decks of cards symbols and then immediately followed with a run of hearts then That is when there will be either a run of wilds or at the minimum just one wild symbol.

I'd like it if you gave the game a try and then tried in the free games to do it on the second reel.



If my local casino has them, I will certainly give them a try for you.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mooseton
Mooseton
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August 18th, 2012 at 9:31:29 AM permalink
Cool... just remember to revive this ole thread to let us know how you feel about it.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try

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