Simple Idea for Shopping

Tell me what is wrong with this idea.

Stores (primarily supermarkets) start an application using Smart Phones. You sign up with a store and they give you a small allowance (say $50 to start with). You go through the store and pick up a few items, charging them to your account using a smart phone. The first time you get your account double checked at check out. Afterwards you are randomly spot checked to see if you are sneaking items out of the store. Obviously if there is a mistake with cat litter it is treated less seriously than one with ten pounds of choice steak. Eventually after a few times, you build up loyalty, and the allowance is increased. Probably some upper limit (say $300 is imposed) just to control the damage done by a customer who is leaving the area, and attempts to sneak out with a ton of expensive goods.

I see huge advantages with a system. It would foster extreme loyalty. Customers would no longer be adverse to stopping in a store to grab a few items since they would not have to wait in a check out line. They can attach a credit card so that they do not need to make a payment. They would be less likely to avoid the supermarket in favor of a convenience store since they won't have to wait in line. They might favor a local supermarket over a fast food chain because it is just as easy to purchase food.

The high end supermarkets are installing cafes and even pubs. In Nevada they have gambling rooms.

I can't see the downside to this system. I think if carefully done, shoplifting could be manageable. Most people trying to build a level of trust are not going to shoplift from their home store.

Why has no one tried to install a system for automated check out of small numbers of items?

Quote: pacomartin

I can't see the downside to this system. I think if carefully done, shoplifting could be manageable. Most people trying to build a level of trust are not going to shoplift from their home store.

Why has no one tried to install a system for automated check out of small numbers of items?

One word... Discrimination. All it would take is "requesting to random check" the wrong person, and the supermarket is sued for more money than they possibly know.

I work in retail, and you can't stop a person unless you are 200% sure they are shoplifting. If you do make a bad stop, you'll be sued the pants off.

They are trying it without smart phones in some stores already. Customer uses a bar-code reader.

I would love to avoid lines. Self-checkout exists as well. "Automated" checkout may require a technological breakthru in RFIDs or scanning.

Quote: Tiltpoul

One word... Discrimination. All it would take is "requesting to random check" the wrong person, and the supermarket is sued for more money than they possibly know.

I work in retail, and you can't stop a person unless you are 200% sure they are shoplifting. If you do make a bad stop, you'll be sued the pants off.

I can't believe that the discrimination problem is not manageable. In Mexico if you are passing some border check points you push a big button. A stoplight turns on either red or green. If you get a red, you are subject to a search. I suspect that they can increase the frequencies of red/green, but I don't think they can jury rig it to blink red because of profiling. It removes the personal aspect from the random check out.

Now they don't use a system like that for airplane boarding where safety is at stake. But they do use it for pedestrian crossings into the country.

I envision a system that flags people more often (but still randomly) when they are starting. After a period of time, and with no discrepancies the statistical likelihood of being flagged goes down.

The self serve check out lines are not quite the same thing. You still have to wait in line, and sometimes random people are slower than employee check out people. Instead of scanning items and loading them into bags in the aisles, you end up bagging things at the counter.

The big benefit would come from someone who is cooking dinner and realizes that he has run out of milk and butter. He could send someone from his family to the supermarket, and bring the smart phone to ease the checkout. Because the account is pre-arranged for money transfer, that person may grab a pie and a bottle of wine (depending on the state) on the way out of the store. Right now that person is intimidated by the check out lines at the supermarket, so instead they go to a convenience store, and buy just some overpriced butter and milk.

Do you know why EVERY TIME you go to a store that offers a credit card you are asked if you want to put it on your store card? Yes, they make tons of money on it, but there's a LEGAL reason.

JCPenney's was the victim of a lawsuit where three people were waiting in line to be checked out. The first two people were asked if they wanted to open up a JCP card. The third person, of some other descent (I believe it was an Arabian) claimed not to be asked. The person sued (successfully) and all of a sudden, every major department retailer either asks EVERYBODY, or they don't ask ANYBODY. Any place or person that doesn't ask is often at risk of LOSING THEIR JOB!!! Seriously, when I worked for Sears, you could tell a person to buzz off, and that would get a slap on the hand. But if on a survey, someone said you didn't offer a charge card (whether you did or didn't), it was an automatic write-up, and three Nos in a 6-month (or year, I forget) time period got you fired. Associates on their second No would often throw surveys away for fear of getting a third No.

If there would be a possibility that someone could be discriminated against, even if it was truly random (which they never are), there would be a lawsuit. I'm not saying some stores won't eventually implement the idea (obviously some are), but I guarantee you they are not doing searches of customers and are hoping the honest ones and markups outweigh the not-so honest ones and shrink. They most likely would anyways.

Quote: pacomartin

Tell me what is wrong with this idea.

Stores (primarily supermarkets) start an application using Smart Phones. You sign up with a store and they give you a small allowance (say $50 to start with). You go through the store and pick up a few items, charging them to your account using a smart phone. The first time you get your account double checked at check out. Afterwards you are randomly spot checked to see if you are sneaking items out of the store. Obviously if there is a mistake with cat litter it is treated less seriously than one with ten pounds of choice steak. Eventually after a few times, you build up loyalty, and the allowance is increased. Probably some upper limit (say $300 is imposed) just to control the damage done by a customer who is leaving the area, and attempts to sneak out with a ton of expensive goods.

I see huge advantages with a system. It would foster extreme loyalty. Customers would no longer be adverse to stopping in a store to grab a few items since they would not have to wait in a check out line. They can attach a credit card so that they do not need to make a payment. They would be less likely to avoid the supermarket in favor of a convenience store since they won't have to wait in line. They might favor a local supermarket over a fast food chain because it is just as easy to purchase food.

The high end supermarkets are installing cafes and even pubs. In Nevada they have gambling rooms.

I can't see the downside to this system. I think if carefully done, shoplifting could be manageable. Most people trying to build a level of trust are not going to shoplift from their home store.

Why has no one tried to install a system for automated check out of small numbers of items?

I don't spend much time waiting to check out. It would not be useful to me. But, it would be very useful to some, and that is what they would have to worry about.

Quote: pacomartin

In Mexico if you are passing some border check points you push a big button. A stoplight turns on either red or green. If you get a red, you are subject to a search.

The first time I saw it I nearly died laughing :) I still smile at the things. It's ludicrous.

Besides, these days at the airport they X-ray your luggage at customs. So even if you get a green light, it's possible they'll ask to see your bags if they saw, or thought they saw, something on the X-rays.

As to your shopping idea, it's been tried in some form before. I recall seeing a report in the mid-90s involving a scanner in your cart which kept track of your purchases, then you just paid with credit card on the way out. It's not quite what you're propposing, but it's similar.

As much as I'd appreciate less lines, I wouldn't care for your system. Among other things:

1) I don't have a "smart" phone nor am I likely to get one any time soon. So it doesn't apply to me.

2) If it did, though, i can see several problems. For one, if you change your mind and want to return an item, I imagine a pretty big deal, possibly negating any advantages. Also if no running total is kept, you may find yourself overspending easily.

3) Technical glitches are inevitable, and they will be a big problem.


That will do for starters.

Good Friday. New Zealand. Discount Grocery store's computer turned on the lights and unlocked the door because the computer had never been told its a major holiday there. Dozens of shoppers took advantage of the bargain prices, some were reported to have driven truckloads out. Some people actually simply used the automated checkout system ... but until one person rang up alcohol which required a manager's over-ride key, the computer never realized anything was wrong.

And now you want to throw in a trust-oriented checkout? No... the effort is on smart carts that total everything automatically before you get to the checkout whether it be with one item or a ton of them.

Quote: Nareed

As to your shopping idea, it's been tried in some form before. I recall seeing a report in the mid-90s involving a scanner in your cart which kept track of your purchases, then you just paid with credit card on the way out. It's not quite what you're propposing, but it's similar.

May not be the same thing, but I recall a TV ad much like that. Was the one you saw the one where some kid tries to shoplift a bunch of stuff hidden in his clothes but the system hands him a bill/receipt on his way out? I think that was an IBM vision-of-the-future ad rather than something actually in practice. I think they implied use of RFID tags on all products in place of or in addition to UPC codes. The cost of the tags and the scanner range are still significant impediments to applying that technology in the grocery store.

I do think most people are honest. I do see the issue of putting things back. Maybe with the RFID idea the carts could have a scanner built in with a screen showing your items and the total. When you want to leave you push your cart though a tunnel where you are "rang up". This would allow for the items that have been put back to not be rung up and for anyone who wants to steal, the wheels would lock immobilizing the cart. People who pay cash/food stamps would not be able to use this system. There could still be regular checkers for people who like to check out the items. One flaw would be for produce that is not prepackaged however.

Two phenom that would be a killer: the people who start "fixing' problems on their own, and the people who make sure no one 'gets a better deal'.

*an item is not in the system. The otherwise honest customer picks a similar item in his bag and punches in two instead of the one he bought, to make up for the item not in system. However, the price unknown, he gives himself the benefit of the doubt in the way he chooses the fix. Perfectly prepared to defend his actions.

*an item is not showing the sale price. Similar self-benefitting fix. Perfectly prepared to defend his actions.

*some folks are seen to clearly be pushing the envelope on this. The fix gets very beneficial! Why should someone else get a better deal? Prepared to defend his actions, wondering a bit how it will be received, but figuring some worse offender gets busted first.

*Absent some people getting busted, the originally honest shoppers - many of them - abuse the system too much for it to continue.

*Never mind the percentage who intended to cheat from the get-go.

Quote: Doc

May not be the same thing, but I recall a TV ad much like that.

Definitely not the same thing. RFID dind't exist back then. But the gist si the same.

Quote:

Was the one you saw the one where some kid tries to shoplift a bunch of stuff hidden in his clothes but the system hands him a bill/receipt on his way out?

No. But, you know, I do see in that description the backers of RFID are promising much more than they can deliver. I can see you can track where any number of items are at any time. I fail to see how you'd determine they were stolen or by whom.

Quote:

The cost of the tags and the scanner range are still significant impediments to applying that technology in the grocery store.

It's coming. I recall when there were complaints on the cost of UPC tags in the 70s. For that matter, I recall complaining about having to generate UPC numbers when our big customer dumped that task on us early in the last decade.

I don't know about legal and technical problems implementing it, by I would really love this idea as a consumer.

Quote: Nareed

1) I don't have a "smart" phone nor am I likely to get one any time soon. So it doesn't apply to me.

But most people do, meaning, the lines will be shorter for you too.
Besides, a few years from now (ok, maybe a decade), there will be no phones sold that are not smart anyway.

Quote:

2) If it did, though, i can see several problems. For one, if you change your mind and want to return an item, I imagine a pretty big deal, possibly negating any advantages.

Why? You just click on a big red "X" on your phone screen, scan the item and put it back on the shelf.

Quote:

Also if no running total is kept, you may find yourself overspending easily.

Why would it be not kept?

Quote:

3) Technical glitches are inevitable, and they will be a big problem.

I don't see any reason why there should be any more technical glitches than there are already with cash registers and price scanners.

This is not the wave of the future... for a number of reasons.

First, Wal-Mart would have to latch onto such a program and roll it out nationally. As the nation's largest retailer and grocer, they basically control what technology stays and what goes. I'm telling you right now that they will be very slow to adapt this technology, as many customers would abuse the system. Their markups simply are not high enought to deflate the costs associated with shrink and create the technology. Then you still have (in your example) the "random checks" that in the South would most certainly be discriminatory...

This leaves other grocers who want to embrace the technology (i.e. Kroger) with some stores that are able to implement the system while others are in the dark age. You see that with self scans; some stores are fully-equipped, others have very few. Minimal implementation means the idea never catches on....

Then you have the "big box retailers." These places nearly always (surprisingly) pride themselves on their "service." This kind of technology limits the amount of service you provide, or ironically, increases it as people learn the technology. Widespread roll-out still is an issue too...

I see our smartphones becoming tools for paying bills and eventually U-scans will be equipped to provide a service similar to what you are talking about. You will still have to "check out" but you may not need to scan everything at the register or require somebody to do that for you. As with all automation, this will reduce the number of people needed, and staff requirements will be lower.

As I typed that, I realized another problem; store inventory levels. With the system described by the OP, a smartphone could potentially have access to store inventory reports, which in turn could be subject to hacking. A live upload would be required to prevent this from happening. That's where the U-scan step would be imperative; the register procedure wouldn't give you that access, and instead, remains a function of Point of Sale.

If everything is RFID read, why would you need to do random searches? Most people will not scan their own items, especially seniors. Others will make many mistakes. In my opinion, you'd have to have a large RFID reader read everything at checkout and compare it with the weight of the cart to ensure that everything is captured. As you walk through, it would also scan you for items.

Store staffing is pretty much at a minimum anyway. What will all of the checkout folks do for a living then?

I agree, that Wal Mart is unlikely to implement this any time soon. But I disagree that it gets to decide what stays and what does not.

I am thinking "trendy" places, like Whole Foods, Trader Joe's etc. could very well get on with the idea. Their traditional customers are less likely to cheat, than those at Wal Mart, and the assortment of their stock is much more narrow, making for an simpler, more manageable application.

I heard an interesting commercial for Wal-Mart today. Or it might have been K-Mart.

They've got an iPhone app that allows you to scan as you shop. The blurb about it in the ad made it sound like it can help you verify prices and run a totol to keep within a budget.

As I was listening, I was thinking of this thread, as well as the fact that this is the first step towards the goal being talked about in this thread.

Nightline's broadcast tonight talked about people at the self-scan lanes at the grocery store trying to be sneaky and move items past the scanner and into the bag without it being scanned. They also talked about the security measures to combat this scam. Because of the date, they focused on people trying to steal their holiday turkeys in this manner, which has apparently become a substantial problem.

Quote: boymimbo

If everything is RFID read, why would you need to do random searches? Most people will not scan their own items, especially seniors. Others will make many mistakes. In my opinion, you'd have to have a large RFID reader read everything at checkout and compare it with the weight of the cart to ensure that everything is captured. As you walk through, it would also scan you for items.

Sounds like my dad. He basically refuses to use the self-scan, will wait in a line instead. Neither of my parents have ever used an ATM. He has given reasoning fron "teller needs a job" to "I am not putting my paycheck into 'a machine.'" Every now and then he will run out of WAM on a holiday weekend, I no longer even suggest he get a card.

Quote:

Store staffing is pretty much at a minimum anyway. What will all of the checkout folks do for a living then?

This is his logic on it all at the store. My answer is "not my problem." It is called "creative destruction" and they will find other jobs.

Theft would definitely be a problem, and opportunists will see a lack of staffing as a chance to shoplift. The UScans rely on weight. When you scan a product, the weight of the product is in their database. The giant thing you put your bags on is on a scale so the scale looks for the change in weight before you can scan your next item. This is fair.

I don't see why an RFID reader simply couldn't be installed at checkout. You roll your cart in, it scans all the items, and compares the weight of what it found (the cart or basket would also be read) to the total weight and flag things if there's a difference. You walk through and it checks you for any items, and off you go.

The only issue with this are items that are based on weight (fresh vegetables and fruit, bulk goods). For these, you would install scales in those areas and you would put these items on a scale and it would spit out an rfid tag with the weight and the item id. This would indeed slow things down substantially though.

I'd subscribe to this without any problem.

Quote: boymimbo

The only issue with this are items that are based on weight (fresh vegetables and fruit, bulk goods). For these, you would install scales in those areas and you would put these items on a scale and it would spit out an rfid tag with the weight and the item id. This would indeed slow things down substantially though.

Not sure this is an issue. Before the mid 1980s you always weighed in the produce department and a little tag to take to checkout. Some places still make a bar code in produce.

Quote: boymimbo

The only issue with this are items that are based on weight (fresh vegetables and fruit, bulk goods). For these, you would install scales in those areas and you would put these items on a scale and it would spit out an rfid tag with the weight and the item id. This would indeed slow things down substantially though.

I don't know how things worked elsewhere, but back in the day of electromechanical registers, that's how things worked for such foods. You'd take your veggies and fruits to a scale, a store employee would weigh and price each, and ultimately the cashier entered that price on your bill.

For that matter that's still how the bakery section works in Mexican supermarkets. You pick your bread from bins and shelves, and have it bagged and priced at a counter. Of course these days the price for the cashier is a printed UPC label rather than a scrawl with a grease pencil.

I've been grocery shopping for oh, 20 years in many areas of Canada and the United States, and I've never seen a produce department with a tagging area. Deli, yes. Produce, no. The UPC of the produce might be labelled but each piece of produce doesn't have the weight on it. You would need to take each piece of produce and have it weighed. On top of that, if you do it independently, there's nothing stopping you for punching the wrong code that's a very low price. For example, pecans might be $4.00 / lb, but you punch in bananas instead at $.70 / lb. That's why you would need some personal intervention in the produce area. In the U-Scan area, you have a cashier (and perhaps a cashier in the sky) watching all of the orders. I suppose if I wanted to punch in bananas instead of pecans using U-Scan, there'd be a fairly good probability that I could get away with it.

And because a great number of the Walmarts and Costcos are selling produce these days, this might be a problem. If someone was to move to this technology, I'd have the spot check rate at about 33%.

Quote: boymimbo

I've been grocery shopping for oh, 20 years in many areas of Canada and the United States, and I've never seen a produce department with a tagging area. Deli, yes. Produce, no.

We're a ways behind. UPC codes didn't become ubiquituous until the mid to late 80s, for example.

These days there's a scale at the register and the cashier punches a code for the produce or bulk item. Some stuff, like lettuce, are charged by the piece regardless of weight.

Quote: boymimbo

Most people will not scan their own items, especially seniors.

Quote: AZDuffman

Sounds like my dad. He basically refuses to use the self-scan, will wait in a line instead.

Well, I suppose I qualify as one of the "seniors", and my reaction to these devices has depended a lot on the store.

At Home Depot, I use the self-scan lane every time that I can. The process just plain works, and it's usually faster for me than a regular cashier. The only delay is for those items w/o a UPC code per item (30 ft. of rope at 6 cents per foot), and there is always someone there to handle the special cases.

At our regular grocery store, I practically get into a fight with the danged machine every time I try to use it. Probably half the things I buy don't seem to scan properly for me, and I buy a lot of stuff that is not reasonable to put on the little space/scale they have for the bag; e.g., cases of water or other beverages. Many things need to go from cart to scanner right back to the cart -- that's the way the employees scan things out, but it doesn't work if I try it myself -- "Please place the item in the bag." Right on top of the eggs? Yes, they have someone there to help with problems, but I wind up needing them 100% time to resolve things at my scanner, and that's less efficient than using a regular line. If I tried to use the self-checkout at that store every time, eventually I would become so annoyed that I would smash the scanner glass, and I'd rather wait in line a little while than lose control like that.

Back when ATMs were first introduced, I jumped on that technology right off the bat. I often said that the machines had better personalities than most of the bank tellers that I had to deal with. Seems that maybe introduction of the machines allowed elimination of some of the sourpusses, and I have actually met some pleasant bank tellers these last few years.

Quote: boymimbo

I've been grocery shopping for oh, 20 years in many areas of Canada and the United States, and I've never seen a produce department with a tagging area. Deli, yes. Produce, no.

You're too young to remember the days before UPCs and electronic scales attached to cash registers.

Back in the day, you picked your produce, brought it to the produce man who bagged it and weighed it, and put the price on the bag. The scale used was the same hanging spring style as the estimating scales that are still in most supermarket produce departments.

You then brought it, along with your other stuff, to a cashier who knew the prices of most of the staples which were unmarked, and used a cash register that was nothing more than an adding machine with a cash drawer.

Yeah, it's very similar to what happens in the deli department today. The difference is, in the deli department, customers are not allowed to use the slicing machines, so it still has to be handled by the deli man. But technology has worked it's way in there too. The scales are more accurate, and can calculate the price right to the penny, and print the price tag, along with a bar code.

a) How 'bout having an "app" for the grocery store where
you way "peppermint extract" and it tells you which aisle
it is in ? I could have used that last night working the
the Mrs' list of Thanksgiving stuff.

b) I hate the self-scanners at Wal-mart. There is always
some sort of problem with them. This has to be the worst
example of an implementation that I have ever seen.

The self scanner at the grocery store works much better,
but given a choice I think it is faster to go through an
aisle with a person there.