Hans Niemann vs Magnus Carlsen cheating scandal

I recently heard about the biggest cheating scandal in chess in 2006. A newcomer from the US, Hans Niemann, has risen in the chess ranks quickly. However, briefly, he is known for beating #1 ranked Magnus Carlsen, even with the black pieces, and losing to players much lower ranked than him. Suffice it to say his results are fishy. Carlsen has refused to play him and has informally accused him of cheating in their games. Niemann denies it and has filed a $100 million lawsuit against those who accuse him of cheating.

How might this be done? A friend in the audience might use a strong chess computer for advice, which gets transmitted somehow to Niemann, probably with some kind of vibrating device. The best chess computers are significantly better the best humans these days.

The question for the poll is who do you believe?

Suggested links:

Chess sex toy cheating scandal explained: World No. 1 Magnus Carlsen, Hans Niemann in wild sports controversy.

Hans Niemann -- Wikipedia entry.

Oh yeah I remember that!

Having played semi-serious chess many years ago, and knowing a few much more advanced chess players, I know that:

1) A chess player is crazy enough to cheat by using vibrating anal beads.

2) A chess player is also crazy enough to imagine his opponent is cheating using vibrating anal beads.

Therefore... I have to call the claim a draw.

But in the future, in order to maintain game integrity while preventing the players from having to undergo a body search reminiscent of prison, or getting backroomed at the Cal-Neva, they should embargo information getting out of the tournament room for 5 moves or so. Then whatever information might be getting in to the room through the back door (so to speak) won't be very helpful.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

... they should embargo information getting out of the tournament room for 5 moves or so. Then whatever information might be getting in to the room through the back door (so to speak) won't be very helpful.
link to original post

This is getting way outside my area, but is it possible to jam all frequencies in the room so no communication could take place? Doesn't the miliary spend billions of dollars on this? I'm just suggesting it be done in a single room. If the audience can't enjoy a game truly live, it takes the fun out of it.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

... they should embargo information getting out of the tournament room for 5 moves or so. Then whatever information might be getting in to the room through the back door (so to speak) won't be very helpful.
link to original post

This is getting way outside my area, but is it possible to jam all frequencies in the room so no communication could take place? Doesn't the miliary spend billions of dollars on this? I'm just suggesting it be done in a single room. If the audience can't enjoy a game truly live, it takes the fun out of it.
link to original post

It may be technologically possible, but as you noted- billions of dollars, and outside of a tightly controlled area like a military base blocking comms tends to be illegal and unsafe. The same technology will be shutting down police radios, a paramedic's EKG telemetry, interconnected fire alarms and the like.

Nothing is truly live anyway, being we are all separated by spacetime. Perhaps the audience can imagine the game taking place on Mars. Instead of seeing what happens in a few nanoseconds, it takes the information about a half hour to get to them. Same thing, differing only in magnitude.

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.

Quote: AxelWolf

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.
link to original post

I think he was hustled but not necessarily cheated.

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.
link to original post

I think he was hustled but not necessarily cheated.
link to original post

Hows that? He either cheated or he did not. I'm not sure how there could be a middle ground. He admitted cheating more than once in the past. Chess.com said he likely cheated.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.
link to original post

I think he was hustled but not necessarily cheated.
link to original post

Hows that? He either cheated or he did not. I'm not sure how there could be a middle ground. He admitted cheating more than once in the past. Chess.com said he likely cheated.
link to original post

He said he had cheated in some online games as a teenager. The reports I've read stated that while he had several suspicious games against other opponents, his games against Magnus were above board.

Consider me groaning on that one.

("above board"... smh)

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.
link to original post

I think he was hustled but not necessarily cheated.
link to original post

Hows that? He either cheated or he did not. I'm not sure how there could be a middle ground. He admitted cheating more than once in the past. Chess.com said he likely cheated.
link to original post

He said he had cheated in some online games as a teenager. The reports I've read stated that while he had several suspicious games against other opponents, his games against Magnus were above board.
link to original post

So where is the hustle? He either cheated or he didn't. If he played an honest game there's no cheat or hustle.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.
link to original post

I think he was hustled but not necessarily cheated.
link to original post

Hows that? He either cheated or he did not. I'm not sure how there could be a middle ground. He admitted cheating more than once in the past. Chess.com said he likely cheated.
link to original post

He said he had cheated in some online games as a teenager. The reports I've read stated that while he had several suspicious games against other opponents, his games against Magnus were above board.
link to original post

So where is the hustle? He either cheated or he didn't. If he played an honest game there's no cheat or hustle.
link to original post

Convincing the world champ that he was being cheated and throwing him off his game was the hustle. 90% of chess is half mental.

Vibrating anal beads might just be the secret to roulette

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Nothing is truly live anyway, being we are all separated by spacetime. Perhaps the audience can imagine the game taking place on Mars. Instead of seeing what happens in a few nanoseconds, it takes the information about a half hour to get to them. Same thing, differing only in magnitude.
link to original post

Are you saying that a live event isn't really live because of the speed of light is only so fast?

If went to a chess match and had to sit in a separate room and watch on a monitor that was time-delayed, I may as well stay home. There is no substitute for watching sports live.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Nothing is truly live anyway, being we are all separated by spacetime. Perhaps the audience can imagine the game taking place on Mars. Instead of seeing what happens in a few nanoseconds, it takes the information about a half hour to get to them. Same thing, differing only in magnitude.
link to original post

Are you saying that a live event isn't really live because of the speed of light is only so fast?

If went to a chess match and had to sit in a separate room and watch on a monitor that was time-delayed, I may as well stay home. There is no substitute for watching sports live.
link to original post

Exactly! The first time an opera was broadcast, it was noted that the people listening at home heard it before the people in the balcony, because of the location of the microphone and the difference between the speeds of light and sound.That was back before everything was delayed and digitally processed.

It's a matter of perspective. If Elon really did host the tournament and take them to Mars to play and we were watching on a monitor we would see the moves happening at the normal rate and have no way to know they were delayed. So science has no answer for if those moves happened a half hour ago or right now; you have to go to philosophy or religion for that. That's for one-way information, which a chess tournament is supposed to be as they are not supposed to be getting any information from the outside world. If you had a feedback loop the delay would then become manifest, and the cheater controlling the beads would have the same experience as a person on earth trying to fly a drone on Mars.

So sealing them off with a time delay would be a simulation of a game on Mars. People don't like delayed sports broadcasts very much because even though everyone in the delayed audience gets the information at the same time, we know that someone has it before us. In this case it would be only those on Mars or in the sealed tournament room who have it, which would be the players and I guess a chess federation official and recorder. They are privileged observers. As spectators we like to imagine ourselves as the participants so the closer we get to the perspective of the players the better it is. Still, watching a game from the 50-yard line is more satisfying than watching on TV through a camera in a player's helmet. Why that is I do not know.

Maybe gaming authorities can help clean it up if Vegas takes action on chess. Real time betting on the next move would be fascinating and probably unlike any other betting we've experienced. It would also be a way that real-world grandmasters could compete against the best computers again; predicting human chess behavior on a human timescale. We would need some cooperation from the players with their table deportment. One of these guys who likes to pick up a piece and hold it under his chin as he ponders would mess everything up.

Big matches are delayed now so no audience can help.

Also participants are scanned for hidden electronics. The anal beads thing was just a joke that went viral. I thin Eric Rosen made the quip.

Hans beat Magnus just once and Magnus overreacted imo. Since they "resolved" their dispute Hans has proven he is a world class player who could certainly beat Carlsen once in many games. So the one game where he was luckily prepared and Magnus played poorly is an understandable fluke.

The past cheating was old, and not in live over the board games.

Hans is a jerk and he admitted to cheating when he was young so no one is going to give him the benefit of the doubt. But no one has come close to offering a realistic explanation for how he supposedly cheated. It could be done theoretically but there's not a shred of evidence, just cynical haters expressing their I-feel-it-and-dont-need-evidence opinions.

I don't like the guy but I think he was wronged, but it's hard to care. Magnus behaved arrogantly and childishly. He's the best ever. He should have just shrugged off the loss and beat Hans soundly thereafter letting others speculate that the fluke might not have been legitimate.

Some say the controversy was good for chess. Maybe so in the short run. But cheating is an existential threat to online chess with thousands of accounts on chess.com getting banned daily but intelligent algorithms. It's dangerous to allow the integrity of over the board tournaments to be questioned without proof, or to tolerate a world champ to make unproven allegations when he fumbles one game.

This isn't the first such scandal. Read about the Anna Rudolf lipstick scandal of decades ago when she was very young and upset a champion. There's no doubt about that one in hind sight and Anna handled it with tremendous class. She's rightfully adored by millions.

Hans convinced Magnus he was cheating and took him out of his comfort zone. I think they are both jerks.

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Magnus Carlsen was cheated.
link to original post

I think he was hustled but not necessarily cheated.
link to original post

Hows that? He either cheated or he did not. I'm not sure how there could be a middle ground. He admitted cheating more than once in the past. Chess.com said he likely cheated.
link to original post

He said he had cheated in some online games as a teenager. The reports I've read stated that while he had several suspicious games against other opponents, his games against Magnus were above board.
link to original post

So where is the hustle? He either cheated or he didn't. If he played an honest game there's no cheat or hustle.
link to original post

Convincing the world champ that he was being cheated and throwing him off his game was the hustle. 90% of chess is half mental.
link to original post

If by mental you mean skill, I can agree.
I would guess that most of the top players in the world are NOT considered mentally right.

If it was a hustle, it was a dumb hustle, unless is goal was to get a labeled a dildo in/up the a$$ cheater and get himself banned. If he was playing good enough to convince the world champion he was cheating then he should be good enough to keep winning so why play silly hustle games? Just win everything and prove yiu are not cheating. I just highly doubt he was playing good enough to convince Carlsen he was cheating without cheating.

Quote: dcjohn

...
This isn't the first such scandal. Read about the Anna Rudolf lipstick scandal of decades ago when she was very young and upset a champion. There's no doubt about that one in hind sight and Anna handled it with tremendous class. She's rightfully adored by millions.
link to original post

And the cheating allegations and cheating scandals in chess are nothing compared to those in duplicate bridge! Imagine a chess player with friends, and that's what a bridge player is like. Even local clubs where no money is at stake have had wars over cheating and suspicion of it.

I may have mentioned this before, but I used to play Risk with a small group for about twenty years when I lived in NY. The game was on a computer and you were given a score when you got eliminated. The bottom two players paid five cents a point to the winner. Anyone else paid the winner a dollar. We were all friends and some had intertwining relationships. It was the friendliest of games.
Our host won more than the rest of us, but for a long time it wasn't that much of a gap between us. Suddenly, he goes from winning 20-25% of the six handed games to almost half. One player approaches me and asks if I think he is cheating. I laugh and tell him to think about it. Our host makes silly money and married into a richer family.
I started paying close attention and realized what he was doing. The original game we started playing allowed a player to transfer armies from one country to another, but only one per move. He was making multiple transfers but disguising it. We confronted him about it and at first he denied knowing anything about it. One of the players went online and figured out when an update made this option available and it was not the default setting. He had altered the rules and didn't tell anyone. He was completely unapologetic and thought it was funny we were complaining over pocket money. Three of us stopped playing. Part of me said it was dumb to lose a friend over a few dollars, but the other half asked me why I'd associate with someone who cheats even his best friends?

Quote: Wizard

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

... they should embargo information getting out of the tournament room for 5 moves or so. Then whatever information might be getting in to the room through the back door (so to speak) won't be very helpful.
link to original post

This is getting way outside my area, but is it possible to jam all frequencies in the room so no communication could take place? Doesn't the miliary spend billions of dollars on this? I'm just suggesting it be done in a single room. If the audience can't enjoy a game truly live, it takes the fun out of it.
link to original post

You could definitely do this by using a metal mesh to wrap the room - similar to the mesh that is used to safeguard your credit card from being hacked. Still a little on the expensive side.

Quote: billryan

Three of us stopped playing. Part of me said it was dumb to lose a friend over a few dollars, but the other half asked me why I'd associate with someone who cheats even his best friends?
link to original post

I'm with the half that wouldn't associate with him any longer. It is a matter of honor. I can say with a straight face that I've never cheated in a game, even a simple board game, in my life.

Quote: Wizard

I'm with the half that wouldn't associate with him any longer. It is a matter of honor. I can say with a straight face that I've never cheated in a game, even a simple board game, in my life.
link to original post

The desire to do something deceptive in almost anything is understandable, and I think any AP can understand it, but, I agree, to have someone do it in a game like chess or Risk is *so disappointing*!

I've posted this before from Chess.com

Quote: chess dot com

Why do people cheat?
... people like to win, want to feel important, and occasionally disregard the thoughts and feelings of others. Cheaters aren't necessarily horrible people - maybe just someone with low self-esteem who doesn't think that winning a game unfairly is a big deal ...

How does Chess.com detect cheating?
...One part of our analysis involves comparing human moves to computer moves and looking at statistical significance. The other parts are not public knowledge. We will never disclose our exact methods for catching cheaters .... it involves both cutting-edge technology and human judgment.

though they say they don't disclose the method, a player himself can use the post-game analysis and see that an opponent is making way too many perfect moves.

Long story but I had to quit chess.com, another big disappointment. Nothing to do with cheating .... ahem!