Calder
Calder
Joined: Mar 26, 2010
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September 28th, 2010 at 10:56:13 PM permalink
First, off, I'm having a great time, thanks for everyone's reasoned, non-personal responses.

Quote: mkl654321

I doubt that Galileo was much of a Christian


You might not like his conclusions, and Galileo might not like being imprisoned and excommunicated, but that doesn't change history.



Quote: mkl654321

Newton was more of a mystic than a Christian


This might be news to Isaac. He was pretty explicit in his writings. If you need to twist things to fit your needs, go ahead.

Newton may have spent a great deal of time arguing things that were wrong (alchemy), but that doesn't make him less of a Christian, it just makes him wrong.

Quote: mkl654321

Einstein's God that "does not play dice with the universe"


I did not claim Einstein was a Christian, I said he believed in God, which is manifest in the quote.

Quote: mkl654321

the scientific method had been flourishing in the Middle East for 700 years by the time it got to the Christian West (which, in turn, can be traced to the fall of Constantinople and the migration of scholars and texts from that city to Venice).


I'll grant the Middle East the invention of the 'zero'. What's next?
Wizard
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Wizard
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September 28th, 2010 at 11:09:51 PM permalink
Quote: wildqat

The way I understand it, it doesn't literally become meat; it becomes Christ with the appearance of bread and wine. Not just a symbol of Christ, as the Protestants believe; it's the (Son of) man himself. And when I say "appearance," I mean in every physically measurable way, they have the physical appearance and properties of bread and wine.



That wiki article compared "substance" to liquid water changing to ice. The same H2O molecules, but in a different state. At least when liquid water changes to ice, there is a physical change. Not only do the electrons move more slowly, but the state of the matter changes from liquid to a solid.

So, can somebody give me anything that changes about the bread when the priest blesses it for communion? I'll take a change in temperature, viscosity, or anything observable. I'm not asking for the "substance" to change, just any physical characteristic of it. Please give me something ANYTHING that is not symbolic in nature.

Is it just me, or can anybody else see that the emperor has no clothes?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Calder
Calder
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September 28th, 2010 at 11:21:28 PM permalink
C'mon, Mike, you know the answer. This is a question of faith, not of reason. It may drive you nuts, but that's the end of it.

Catholics believe in a change of substance, and that's the end of it. You can interpret their lack of evidence as irrationality or mental illness, but you still have to deal with their beliefs.

Perhaps 80% of humanity that believes in something. You don't have to like it. but that's the world in which we live.
rxwine
rxwine
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September 28th, 2010 at 11:28:27 PM permalink
Didn't the image of Jesus appear on toast, and sold on Ebay?

(I think it was Jesus? Hmm, I think it was toast? I think it was Ebay?? Nevermind.)
The Hall of Unverified Claims is a vast place with many shelves.
Calder
Calder
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September 28th, 2010 at 11:30:56 PM permalink
This is easy.

I live in Wisconsin. Was it butter or margarine?
Wizard
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Wizard
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September 29th, 2010 at 6:38:13 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

This is a question of faith, not of reason. It may drive you nuts, but that's the end of it.



I can't get past the feeling that this particular belief is just batsh*t crazy. The bread changes into Jesus' flesh, yet it still maintains every physical property of bread. Come one Catholics, wake up! I would have more respect for somebody who believed in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 29th, 2010 at 6:51:36 AM permalink
The one thing I got out of reading the Bible myself is that God is really, really into Symbolism. So in an afterlife you have to figure it only gets worse if this drives you nuts. And if the Wizard winds up 'down below', I think we can guess what the nature of his tortures are going to be: nonsensical symbolism. Oh, and devilish distributions of Variance all the time, way past 3 standard deviations, with constant assertions the bets are actually fair .
The Dice, the cards, they not only have no sense of justice but are seemingly endowed with a sense of cruel irony. This devolves from the 'nature of random'. Ironically, don't you see. 
Mosca
Mosca
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September 29th, 2010 at 7:06:08 AM permalink
"Galileo, Newton, and Einstein were Christians, and they were smarter than you are now, so they must be right and you must be wrong."

Hmmmm. Where should I start?

OK. How about an easy one. Ghandi was smarter than I am now, and he was not a Christian.

Or we can just go through history, pairing off eggheads, and discovering who was the smartest human of all time... and then whatever religion he was, that's the one that is right!

I'll start.

Newton or Muhammad ibn Musa al-Kwarizm?

I have to give this one to Muhammad ibn Musa al-Kwarizm. So +1 for Islam!

Who's next?

Muhammad ibn Musa al-Kwarizm or ????
NO KILL I
Mosca
Mosca
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September 29th, 2010 at 7:20:30 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I can't get past the feeling that this particular belief is just batsh*t crazy. The bread changes into Jesus' flesh, yet it still maintains every physical property of bread. Come one Catholics, wake up! I would have more respect for somebody who believed in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.



Geez, Wiz. (Cheese whiz?) It's supposed to be a miracle. Remember that this is a belief that has been passed down for almost 2000 years. It might seem silly today, but it was pretty damned mysterious in 1228.

As far as it being open to reinterpretation, well, the Catholic Church is pretty hung up on being completely and absolutely right, then, now, and for all time. It's sort of like the Roger Clemens situation. Once you've insisted that you are right, and you've staked all the marbles on that claim and in the absence of anything that shows that all the facts to the contrary are wrong, it doesn't really matter how much incontrovertible evidence gets thrown against you; you can't change your story. Now, take Roger Clemens, raise the stakes by about a billion Catholics, and maintain your story for 2000 years, and here we are, with transubstantiation, celibate priests, no birth control and missionary position only, no meat on Friday, and a whole boatload of strange "truths" both large and small.
NO KILL I
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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September 29th, 2010 at 7:29:16 AM permalink
I got a 14/15, missed the one about who founded the Great Awakening.

Although the quiz asked a few questions about US law ... which was weird, as laws relating to religions aren't "religion," but oh well.

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