Golden Balls -- Game 2

First, I think we all owe Aye a big thanks for being the executive secretary for GB-II. Thanks Aye!!!

Here is the final box score.

Player	R1 (1x)	R2 (1x)	R3 (1x)	R4 (2x)	R5 (1x)	R6 (1x)	R7 (4x)	R8 (1x)	R9 (1x)	R10 (7x)	Bank
avargov	O	X	O	O	O	O	X	O	O	FR	$12.94
Croupier	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	$11.25
Din	O		O	X	O	O	X	O	O	X	$18.00
dwheatley	O	O	O	O	O	O	X	O	O	X	$17.44
FrGamble	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	X	O	$7.88
gameterror	O		O	X	O	O	O	O	O	X	$15.75
JohnnyQ	O	O	O	X	O	O	O	O	O	X	$16.88
makingbook	X	O	X	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	$6.75
miplet	X	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	$9.56
paisiello	O	X	O	O	O	O	O	X	O	X	$5.06
rainman	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	$5.06
SOOPOO	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	$6.19
thecesspit	O	O	O	O		O	O	O	X	O	$7.31
vendman1	O		O	O	O	O	O	O	O	X	$6.75
winmonkeyspit3	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	O	X	$15.75

So, 50% steals in the final round. Congratulations, I guess, to the winers, and commiserations to the losers. Of the $225 in prize money, I owe $162.56, or 65% of it. The other 35% was lost due to not participating and mutual steals.

The winners may PM me on how they wish to be paid. As was mentioned, any funds donated to charity I will match into the next WoV game pool. I've decided the charity this time will be the Three Square, a Las Vegas food bank. For those choosing to receive their own money, I perfer to pay by Paypal. A check in the mail is also fine.

So, what we have learned from all this?

I have learned crime pays. I should have been a thief. :)

For round 10, I told rainman I was going to steal. The question then is, what else did I say that resulted in a successful steal?

Quote: Din

For round 10, I told rainman I was going to steal.

What was the strategy behind that?

I found it hard to punish a steal, as that then came on your future record.

Quote: Wizard

What was the strategy behind that?

yeah, I was asking myself the whole time if communication even makes sense...because everyone would always say that they are going to share. It's just about how convincing one can be....I'm amazed that Din was able to steal on all higher paying rounds. remind me to never play Diplomacy with him.

Quote: gameterror

yeah, I was asking myself the whole time if communication even makes sense...because everyone would always say that they are going to share. It's just about how convincing one can be....I'm amazed that Din was able to steal on all higher paying rounds. remind me to never play Diplomacy with him.

It all depends what you value your word at. Those willing to lie for a few dollars really define themselves!

Quote: SOOPOO

It all depends what you value your word at. Those willing to lie for a few dollars really define themselves!

how much I feared that answer....as i'm not feeling bad enough already :-(

Quote: Wizard

First, I think we all owe Aye a big thanks for being the executive secretary for GB-II. Thanks Aye!!!

You are all very welcome. Thank you for all your kind words of appreciation in the PM's.

I tried to refrain from writing too much into replies, but had to rib JohnnyQ in the final. Egads! Next he'll be stealing red kettles when the bell ringers aren't looking... hehe...

I would like to hear folks dissect their strategies. Were there key things that triggered defensive steals?

Quote: Ayecarumba

I would like to hear folks dissect their strategies.

Indeed, I'd like to hear from the players about their strategy and how they might play differently next time.

I note that vendman1 and winmonkeyspit3 were the only players who stole in the final, that did not steal in any of the previous rounds of this game. However, vendman1's total was only $6.75, while winmonkeyspit3 amassed $15.75. Why was vendman1 victimized, while winmonkeyspit3 garnered such trust?

Quote: Wizard

Indeed, I'd like to hear from the players about their strategy and how they might play differently next time.

Congrats to Din who won with 18 dollars despite missing a round. Happy with my 15.75 and 4th place finish, a well played game by all.

OK.. at the Wizards request my strategy(simple really)....share the whole time and build trust, steal for the big money at the end. Unfortunately, my opponent in round 10 paisello, had stolen twice before, so I was figuring he'd steal agian. In addition, based on our(limited) PM's I didn't trust him to share. So I had two reasons to steal. Obviously he stole too. So all's fair in love and Golden Balls ....dammit.

Donating my paltry winnings to charity FYI.

I chose to share in every round, unless I didn't get a response from my opponent. Round 2, no reply, chose steal, opponent didn't submit. Round 7, answer PM from opponent, received no response, chose steal. Round 9 was an oversight by Cess. I take him at his word on this. Round 10 was a no brainer.

What would I do differently, probably nothing. Happy with how the game turned out.

Thanks for putting this on Wiz!

Quote: miplet

Sharing is boring. MakingBook stole in the 1st round of the first golden balls. I said that I will be stealing on round 1, and if he choose to share, then I would choose share in any future rounds. He rejected my offer. He didn't offer a counter offer and I was too busy to think of one. I see we have met again in round 2. Hopefully there will be atleast one share. I appalagize of there was any confusion with my offer.

The above was my round 1 strategy. (Did I really say sharing is boring? Yes I did, because if everybody shared every round, the game would be boring.)
Round 2 we decided sharing was the only option, lest we be labeled as people who will never share.
For round 3, I offered avargov the option that one of us could steal this round, and the other would share. Then if we met in any future rounds, the we would switch rolls. We decided both sharing would be best.
Round 4 was me vs Din, and we know how that turned out.
Rounds 5-8 were just some more sharing.
Round 9 was with dwheatley. He stole in the 4x round. We had some PM's that he can share if he wants to. We did end up both sharing.
Round 10: I was going to share no matter who I faced. I was just hoping that what ever prng the Wiz used would pair me up with a sharer.

Quote: SOOPOO

It all depends what you value your word at. Those willing to lie for a few dollars really define themselves!

Its a game, not a way to define yourself.

Quote: SOOPOO

It all depends what you value your word at. Those willing to lie for a few dollars really define themselves!

I donated that money I won, and another $50 on top of it!

Besides, it's not whether you win or lose...as long as you win!

Quote: miplet

Round 10: I was going to share no matter who I faced. I was just hoping that what ever prng the Wiz used would pair me up with a sharer.

I was going to steal from most people in the final. I just couldnt steal from miplet. I like the guy too much.

I would also like to donate any winnigs to charity.

EDIT - Full strategy.

initially my plan was to offer a share each round. Anyone who shared with me, I would share with in future rounds. Anyone who stole from me, I would steal from if matched up, leading to a big steal in the final round. I really wanted to steal from miplet in the final. I nearly sent a second pm to change my decision, but I actually would have felt guilty. I am kinda proud of my perfect share record.

I learned that 10 rounds is not enough to make the strategy work but I was simply playing tit for tat. I only chose stole steal against other stealers and chose share every other time. I thought other players would see that but apparently not.

I was surprised to see how gullible really that SOOPOO, rainman, and thecesspit were. I guess I was unlucky not to paired up against them during the big rounds otherwise I might have done a lot better.

Please donate my $5.06 to the Wiz's charity as well.

Quote: Maverick17

Its a game, not a way to define yourself.

We can agree to disagree. (I have been using that phrase a lot recently). If someone tells me they will share, and then does not, they are a liar, whether in the context of a game or not. Quite simple.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I would like to hear folks dissect their strategies. Were there key things that triggered defensive steals?

Based on GB#1, I interpreted a "no response" to a PM as
an intent to Steal.

So that's why I did a defensive Steal in Round #4.

Once I saw that I was close to the top of the rankings,
I discussed my desire to claim "bragging" rights and
did a STEAL in the final round. Oh well, sortof close
but no cigar.

In general, even though I thought this was all a ton of
fun, I didn't see much incentive to do much stealing.

I am consulting my team of advisors on whether or
not to donate my "winnings".

Wiz:

Lemme turn your question around, and in terms of
GB#3 if and when, what would you do differently in
terms of the design of the game itself ?

At the beginning of the game I was completely undecided about my strategy. I knew the key was to share a lot early on. There would be plenty opportunities to steal but the money wasn't worth the hit to my reputation. I thought that two was the optimal number of steals but wasn't sure which rounds to go for. I also briefly considered a completely random choice the whole way through but that would result in too many steals. My steal in the 2x round was chosen on a whim. The other bonus round steal was actually calculated because I thought I could get away with it. There was absolutely no strategy in missing a round (whoops!).

That left round 10. I was in the lead. I knew I wanted to steal but I think everyone knew I was going to steal. How do I convince my opponent to share in that situation? I thought of a couple more dishonest strategies which I think would have worked (and I'll keep to myself for the future) and decided to go for the honest strategy. Here's what I basically told rainman:

I am going to steal. Yes, seriously. However, I don't want the money--not just from this round but from the entire game. If you choose share, I will finish the game in first place and I will let you select the charity I donate my winnings to. If you choose steal, we both lose and a charity loses out on $7 plus my winnings from earlier in the game.

I was playing chicken but had already decided that there was no way I was going to swerve out of the way. Never take a hostage you aren't willing to shoot (metaphorically--please don't actually shoot hostages).

I found the comment about the game being revealing of one's character interesting. This was a game and for relatively low stakes. Deception is part of the game. I don't think it's any more dishonest than bluffing in poker, manipulating people in Monopoly, or lying in Diplomacy (a game near to my heart mentioned previously). Though to be fair, almost no one will play Monopoly or Diplomacy with me more than once. It usually ends up in everyone not talking to each other for a couple of weeks.

I think the stakes in the game would affect my play. I have no problem stealing when the amount of money is small and wouldn't really affect anyone's life. If we were playing for say, a million dollars, I don't think I could ever steal. Then we are talking about serious money that could change someone's life and it ceases to be just a game. Where exactly between $20 and $1,000,000 that line is...I don't know but it is something I've thought about a lot throughout this game.

Thank you Wizard for running this game and Aye for putting up with recording everything. It was a blast.

My suggestion for GB3, if it ever happens, would be to add an option that counters stealing.

Quote: paisiello

I learned that 10 rounds is not enough to make the strategy work but I was simply playing tit for tat. I only chose stole steal against other stealers and chose share every other time. I thought other players would see that but apparently not.

I was surprised to see how gullible really that SOOPOO, rainman, and thecesspit were. I guess I was unlucky not to paired up against them during the big rounds otherwise I might have done a lot better.

Please donate my $5.06 to the Wiz's charity as well.

Really, I shared every round, and you stole from me? Just curious.

Edit: I really don't care if someone steals, but your statement above is just wrong. Thought the game was fun and if everyone shared all the time it would be dull. So a little (or a lot) of stealing is what makes it fun. With all due respect SOOPOO I don't think it reveals much about your character. Stealing is part of a GAME...it's not really stealing. Please take that in the light hearted tone it is was typed in.

That's why I play poker. If a player says he is not bluffing, I always lay my hand down. Not about to call anyone a LIAR !

Quote: Wizard

So, what we have learned from all this?

a) That the Wiz is pretty generous with his own money.

So I say "HEY THANKS". And ditto to AYECARUMBA for
facilitating this.

b) But based on this site, I doubt there would be much
interest in playing IF the score was just kept as Wins
and Losses with no money involved.

c) DIN should update his profile sign-off to something
modest and humble like:

"Grand Golden Ballz #2 WoO World Internet Web Champion"

Quote: vendman1

Really, I shared every round, and you stole from me? Just curious.

You have a funny view of things. Not sure how you think I stole from you since you chose steal also.

Quote: vendman1

...but your statement above is just wrong.

Not clear to me who you are talking to or what statement you are referring to.

Quote: JohnnyQ

b) But based on this site, I doubt there would be much
interest in playing IF the score was just kept as Wins
and Losses with no money involved.

I disagree. I think a lot of players would have played without any money at stake. I personally would have because I like brain teasers, games and game theory.

As for my strategy: Did'nt really have a big strategy besides trying to steal in big rounds. Figured that stealing in round#7 would result in punishment in the last round. Also I was unsure if I was able to steal in R10 because I thought each and everyone (plus their dog) would try to steal in last round...I'm steal impressed Din and dwheatley that they pulled this of.

I'd like to receive my share as I'm going to seed another contest/game on my own blog with it. But whoever wins it their is free to donate it.

Thanks to the wizard and AYECARUMBA for doing this.

I am also selecting DONATE as insurance
against spending time in Hell for Stealing
from FrG !

Quote: vendman1

Really, I shared every round, and you stole from me? Just curious.

Edit: I really don't care if someone steals, but your statement above is just wrong. Thought the game was fun and if everyone shared all the time it would be dull. So a little (or a lot) of stealing is what makes it fun. With all due respect SOOPOO I don't think it reveals much about your character. Stealing is part of a GAME...it's not really stealing. Please take that in the light hearted tone it is was typed in.

I should have entered the game with your attitude, not mine! The money part, although trivial, made it less of a 'game' to me than it should have been. If it would have been 'points' instead of dollars, I think I would have been more cunning, as I knew my goal was to win a game and not money. The concept of winning money at another forum member's expense using subterfuge and falsehoods did not seem like an option for me. If I just thought of it as a game, like Monopoly, that you play to win, and lying is legal, then I will employ those tactics (perhaps!) next time.

To Paisello, you said in a post above that you only stole from previous stealers. I didn't steal during the entire game, yet you choose steal. Why? I'm not being pissy, it just seems like you broke your own rule...I was just curious.

Quote: gameterror

I disagree. I think a lot of players would have played without any money at stake. I personally would have because I like brain teasers, games and game theory.

The next game that I need a financial incentive to play will be the first, so I agree, especially games based on trying to outwit your opponents.

Strategy Post:
Optimal strategy in an interated prisoner's dilemma style game is to steal on the last round. And since everyone should know that, you should always steal. Doh.
So I figured I would share like I expected most people to do, to build up trust. I had considered a steal in round 7 early on, then planned on sharing, then read a very wise comment from the Wiz that round 7 probably SHOULD be the last chance for a big successful steal. So I went for it (after honestly telling my round7 opponent I intended to share).
I then went away on vacation, and only had very intermittent internet access. I honestly thought I was playing against SOOPOO in round 9, and my msg to him was honest that I intended to share. But it was actually round 10, when i was always planning to steal. So... things worked out pretty well, better than I deserve, I'm sure.

Thank you all for the comments. I think this game would be very different without actual money on the line. The fact that the amounts may be considered trivial to some, but worth fighting for by others, is at the "heart" of the game.

I think that once a score is being kept, whether by points
or by dollars, it changes how people approach it. Maybe
more so when it is dollars, though. People generally
enjoy being in a competition.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I think this game would be very different without actual money on the line.

ps:

Would there be even more stealing with no money
on the line, because the ONLY thing you would have
to show for your participation is the final score ?

Quote: JohnnyQ

ps:

Would there be even more stealing with no money
on the line, because the ONLY thing you would have
to show for your participation is the final score ?

Yes, for me. Then I would have just treated it as a competition amongst forum members as opposed to a way to take money from other forum members.

Quote: SOOPOO

Yes, for me. Then I would have just treated it as a competition amongst forum members as opposed to a way to take money from other forum members.

I have difficulty agreeing with your perspective of, "Taking money from other Forum Members," in this regard. If The Wiz creates a game and finances the entire prize pool of said game...even if I had accepted my winnings...am I not only, "Taking," money from The Wiz? How can I possibly be taking money from other Forum Members that they did not risk in the first place?

Quote: Mission146

I have difficulty agreeing with your perspective of, "Taking money from other Forum Members," in this regard. If The Wiz creates a game and finances the entire prize pool of said game...even if I had accepted my winnings...am I not only, "Taking," money from The Wiz? How can I possibly be taking money from other Forum Members that they did not risk in the first place?

I guess you don't understand EV! The forum member that I was competing against had a certain EV, depending upon how much was available. Lets say it was 1 dollar. If I deceived the forum member out of that dollar, it is just as if I took a dollar out of his pocket.
To make it simpler--- if Mike said--- I have 1000 dollars to give to either one of you, or split between both of you, and I lie to the other member to get the entire $1000 for myself, you don't see how that is "taking money from other forum members"?
As I stated in a recent thread, since the dollar value is so low, if there is another such game, I will treat it as a game, and not real money.

Quote: Mission146

I have difficulty agreeing with your perspective of, "Taking money from other Forum Members," in this regard. If The Wiz creates a game and finances the entire prize pool of said game...even if I had accepted my winnings...am I not only, "Taking," money from The Wiz? How can I possibly be taking money from other Forum Members that they did not risk in the first place?

Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science ?

So, logically...

If... she... weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.

And therefore...?

A witch !

Quote: SOOPOO

I guess you don't understand EV! The forum member that I was competing against had a certain EV, depending upon how much was available. Lets say it was 1 dollar. If I deceived the forum member out of that dollar, it is just as if I took a dollar out of his pocket.
To make it simpler--- if Mike said--- I have 1000 dollars to give to either one of you, or split between both of you, and I lie to the other member to get the entire $1000 for myself, you don't see how that is "taking money from other forum members"?
As I stated in a recent thread, since the dollar value is so low, if there is another such game, I will treat it as a game, and not real money.

I do not see how it is, "Taking money from other forum members," even in that case. Instead of taking $500 from The Wiz and having someone else take $500 from The Wiz, I would merely be taking $1,000 from The Wiz.

It's the difference between a known result and an unknown result, nothing more or less. The $500 does not become their money unless I choose to share with them, so I am not, "Taking money," I am simply just facilitating them not getting any money. They have to have something in order for me to take it.

Imagine if the WoV Picks Game/Bet went to Week 17 with the two leaders tied in record and nobody else in reach. They could get together and decide to chop it by simply mirroring each other's picks. If they agree to do that and then one guy betrays the agreement and wins, the only money he has, "Taken," is the money that his opponent loses to him directly...and even that is a stretch because the opponent could have won.

In the Golden Balls game, the other team also could have stolen, and then nobody would have gotten anything with The Wiz retaining his money. If this had happened with both sides agreeing to share, did each team, "Take," $100 from the other team and still end up with $0?

If they took it, then how do they each have $0?

Quote: JohnnyQ

Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science ?

So, logically...

If... she... weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.

And therefore...?

A witch !

You have a deep understanding of Philosophy...lol

In all seriousness, some arguments look really close to that. If you're ever painted into a corner in a Debate, basically, you just try to confuse what is being discussed until what you are saying looks both sensible and contextual.

Quote: Mission146

I do not see how it is, "Taking money from other forum members," even in that case. Instead of taking $500 from The Wiz and having someone else take $500 from The Wiz, I would merely be taking $1,000 from The Wiz.

It's the difference between a known result and an unknown result, nothing more or less. The $500 does not become their money unless I choose to share with them, so I am not, "Taking money," I am simply just facilitating them not getting any money. They have to have something in order for me to take it.

I stand bt my original comment. This is a gambling website. The moment Mike makes that offer, each participant has an EV of $500. If I lie to the other forum member to get that EV to 0$, I have effectively 'stolen' $500 from that forum member. If you can't understand this, I can't help you.....

Quote: SOOPOO

I stand bt my original comment. This is a gambling website. The moment Mike makes that offer, each participant has an EV of $500. If I lie to the other forum member to get that EV to 0$, I have effectively 'stolen' $500 from that forum member. If you can't understand this, I can't help you.....

Gambling, exactly! That's what someone is doing when they pick, "Share," they are gambling on the fact that I am going to Share with them as opposed to Stealing. If I choose Steal, I am also gambling that they are going to share, just in a different way.

There may be someone that really needs that $500, though, so that could be a little different for me. It might rise to the level of being more than a game to the extent that I would feel bad if I were to take that from someone. I don't think the $18.18 that everyone would have gotten in the previous game is huge life-changing money if everyone shared...so, honestly...I was just trying to win the game which I see as amassing the highest possible total. I think I did that.

Great! Now when we have the $1,000 Golden Balls Challenge everyone knows they can steal from me, thanks, SOOPOO! LOL

Well I see what SOOPOO is saying.

IF someone says in a PM "I am going to do WHATEVER
and you can take my word for it", then I think they
should do what they said because game or not, they said
you can take my word for it.

And that should mean somethin'.

ESPECIALLY when the stakes are so small.

So, for what it's worth, in GB #1 & #2, I NEVER
said I would do one thing in a PM and then did
something else.

IF I could pick a partner for an entire game,
round after round after round, or conversely
for one big round, I would like to be
paired up with SOOPOO or FrG.

And NOT because I could steal from them.
Because I think we would discuss via PM and
both SHARE. If we said we were going to
share, I'm 100 % certain I would and 99.999 %
certain they would.

On the other hand, it's just a game.

the EV of such a game would not be $500. it's one possible payoff of this game...but actually it's a dominated strategy.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Well I see what SOOPOO is saying.

IF someone says in a PM "I am going to do WHATEVER
and you can take my word for it", then I think they
should do what they said because game or not, they said
you can take my word for it.

And that should mean somethin'.

ESPECIALLY when the stakes are so small.

I think that it should mean something when the stakes are huge, as opposed to small, if they are small I am just trying to win and don't feel like I am effing my fellow man over by lying to him.

Quote:

So, for what it's worth, in GB #1 & #2, I NEVER
said I would do one thing in a PM and then did
something else.

I did no such thing, either. I specifically told my opponents that it would be fun to prove the Wiz wrong by sharing in the last round, and made sure to mention that I did not have direct control over the decision. I said that, "We must share," not that I was going to. Did I strongly imply that I would encourage sharing, abso-freaking-lutely, but did I ever say that we would definitely share? No.

Quote:

And NOT because I could steal from them.
Because I think we would discuss via PM and
both SHARE. If we said we were going to
share, I'm 100 % certain I would and 99.999 %
certain they would.

On the other hand, it's just a game.

If I directly said, "I am going to share with you in this round," then I would do so.

Quote: vendman1

To Paisello, you said in a post above that you only stole from previous stealers. I didn't steal during the entire game, yet you choose steal. Why? I'm not being pissy, it just seems like you broke your own rule...I was just curious.

I did not say "previous" stealers, I said "other" stealers. And that group apparently includes you.

Can the following members please PM me to indicate their choice to collect your winnings or donate to Three Square. I apologize if you already told me, but I forgot to record your choice.

Croupier
Din
dwheatley
makingbook
miplet
paisiello
rainman
SOOPOO

Thank you.

Sorry it took so long but I finally recorded everybody's payment preference and made a donation to Three Square. Of the 15 players who completed the game, 11 chose the charity option. Of the $162.56 total prize money, $96.75 was donated, or 59.5%.

So, karma points to all who donated. I will round up, and kick in an extra $100 to the next WoV game.

Thanks Wizard! I'm looking forward to GB3... Or whatever's next.