Are red heads dying out?
Upon doing some digging, most web sites agree with me that red heads dying out is an urban legend. Just out of curiosity, I did some math. Let's assume that 2% of the American population has red hair. After some math I won't get into I find that the proportion of red-headed genes out there would be sqr(2)/10=14.14%. That would make the probability of being a carrier 24.28%.
An ex-girlfriend of mine was a bright orange red head, and neither her mom nor dad was. She said that when she was a kid she asked her mother why she had red hair, when neither her mother nor father did. Her mother answered, "I don't know, but I do recall our old mail man had red hair."
Quote: WizardOn the Chelsea Lately show today Chelsea said that unless red heads have children with each other then the trait will eventually die out. This I found hard to believe. ...
Upon doing some digging, most web sites agree with me that red heads dying out is an urban legend.
Are redheads going extinct? makes it pretty clear that the trait can skip multiple generations.
Chelsea Handler is not a good source of scientific information. She can be pretty funny, but it looks like her scripted show is doomed.
Should SOOPOO find his way to this thread, I would also be interested to know if it is true that redheads feel pain more easily, and thus might require more anesthesia than a non-red head, all other things being equal?
Quote: WizardShould SOOPOO find his way to this thread, I would also be interested to know if it is true that redheads feel pain more easily, and thus might require more anesthesia than a non-red head, all other things being equal?
Beats me. One thing I have noticed is that red-haired people often have two eye colors. To illustrate find a good, big photo of Dana Delany and look at her eyes. They're both brown and green.
A guy had jet black hair and 8 kids with bright red hair.
His neighbor had no kids and bright red hair. The father
of the kids never made the connection.
"The Farkel Family was a recurring sketch on the television variety show Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In. The Farkel parents, Frank Farkel (played by Dan Rowan) and Fanny Farkel (played by Jo Anne Worley, later by Barbara Sharma and finally by Patti Deutsch), both had dark-colored hair and good eyesight. Curiously, all the children had red hair and wore glasses, just like their "good friend and trusted neighbor" Ferd Berffle, played by Dick Martin. This might have implied that Ferd and Fanny had been "more" than just neighbors, but it was never explained."
Quote: WizardThat article you linked to said that redheads are called "gingers" in the UK and Australia. Can our friends overseas confirm? Might this be due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island?
Nah, I wouldn't have known Gilligan's Island from a hole in the ground growing up, nor would have my parents. Not sure it was even on TV. I did love the old Gilligan's Island Pinball machine, but the theme and setting meant nothing to me.
Ginger (or Ginga as we sometimes say when being slightly offensive to red heads) has always been the name in the UK, and a quick etymology scan suggests it goes back to the 1800's, possibly describing cockerels. Dickens uses it in 1865 to describe a red-bearded man. Ginger cake is reddish/sandy coloured, so may come from that, as clearly the ginger in my fridge (the root spice, not the dead body) is a pale yellowish colour.
Red-heads are associated with the Scots and Irish especially (whereas Celtic colouration is pale skin, black hair and blue eyes, the Scots, Gaels and Irish are known for green eyes, pale freckled skin and red hair)
Quote: WizardThat article you linked to said that redheads are called "gingers" in the UK and Australia. Can our friends overseas confirm? Might this be due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island?
Should SOOPOO find his way to this thread, I would also be interested to know if it is true that redheads feel pain more easily, and thus might require more anesthesia than a non-red head, all other things being equal?
I am not from from the UK but have noticed on British TV shows that they use the term "ginger" for redheads.
There was an episode of MythBusters where they tested pain tolerance but they heard the myth that redheads were MORE resistant to pain, not less. In their test they did find some evidence that redheads could withstand pain longer, although the sample size might have been only one redhead, I can't remember. They tested how long subjects could keep a hand submerged in ice water.
Quote: WizardThat article you linked to said that redheads are called "gingers" in the UK and Australia. Can our friends overseas confirm? Might this be due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island?
Should SOOPOO find his way to this thread, I would also be interested to know if it is true that redheads feel pain more easily, and thus might require more anesthesia than a non-red head, all other things being equal?
Among the younger generation, Ginger has picked up quite a bit in the states as well. This may be due to a certain South Park episode where Cartman begins a ginger extermination program, even including his "friend" Kyle.
Quote: WizardThat article you linked to said that redheads are called "gingers" in the UK and Australia. Can our friends overseas confirm? Might this be due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island?
Should SOOPOO find his way to this thread, I would also be interested to know if it is true that redheads feel pain more easily, and thus might require more anesthesia than a non-red head, all other things being equal?
Redheads are known to require more anesthesia for a given procedure than non redheads. My pre op evaluations have included the question... Is that natural or from a box?
Quote: WizardOn the Chelsea Lately show today Chelsea said that unless red heads have children with each other then the trait will eventually die out. This I found hard to believe. Red hair is passed along by non-read heads via a recessive gene. Only with both red-head genes will someone have red hair. As long as people with the red hair mate as much as those who don't, regardless of the partner's hair color, then the proportion of red heads should remain the same. As far as I know red-headed men and women have the same fertility rate as the rest of us.
Upon doing some digging, most web sites agree with me that red heads dying out is an urban legend. Just out of curiosity, I did some math. Let's assume that 2% of the American population has red hair. After some math I won't get into I find that the proportion of red-headed genes out there would be sqr(2)/10=14.14%. That would make the probability of being a carrier 24.28%.
How many generations are required before a recessive gene is considered a non-issue? Does the presence of a competing strong dominant gene eventually overwhelm or dilute the recessive's opportunities to be revealed?
Also: I couldn't find a figure on the percentage of births from a sperm donor, but this can't help redheads:
Sperm banks don't want redheads
Quote: ahiromuJust to clarify, the South Park episode was 9x11 and Cartman (Fatass) basically rips on gingers and his friends decide to make him into one. While he's sleeping they beat him silly then dye his hair and bleach his skin. When Cartman finds out he's a ginger he makes a 180 and wants to exterminate all non-gingers.
Also: I couldn't find a figure on the percentage of births from a sperm donor, but this can't help redheads:
Sperm banks don't want redheads
Thank you for correcting my faulty memory. I knew they made him into a ginger, but I forgot the extermination thing came after that plot point.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI knew they made him into a ginger,
If you said that in the US, people would think you mean
Gay. Ginger has real feminine undertones.
Quote: SOOPOORedheads are known to require more anesthesia for a given procedure than non redheads. My pre op evaluations have included the question... Is that natural or from a box?
Any idea if/how this affects people with the redhead recessive gene? I ask because I know people with one sickle-cell gene are known to show resistance to malaria, and people with one Ty-Sachs' gene can resist tuberculosis better.
Quote: AyecarumbaHow many generations are required before a recessive gene is considered a non-issue? Does the presence of a competing strong dominant gene eventually overwhelm or dilute the recessive's opportunities to be revealed?
I'm not sure I understand the question, but as long as people with the recessive gene are mating as often as those who don't then the percentage of the population that has it should stay the same. It is not that the dominant gene kills off the weaker one. The recessive gene just sits there quietly, and when the owner mates the recessive gene has the same 50/50 chance of being passed on as the dominant one.
Quote: WizardThat article you linked to said that redheads are called "gingers" in the UK and Australia. Can our friends overseas confirm? Might this be due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island?
I'm from AU and whilst I don't know (nor could find) the origins of the term to describe redheads, it certainly isn't due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island, at least as far as AU is concerned. The term ginger for red-heads (btw, my partner is one) is very common in AU and has been for a long time. There was a very popular comic strip from the 1920's called Ginger Meggs whose lead character was, you guessed it, red-headed.
From the fountain of all wisdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair
Extinction hoax
A 2007 report in The Courier-Mail, which cited the National Geographic magazine and unnamed "geneticists", said that red hair is likely to die out in the near future.[30] Other blogs and news sources ran similar stories that attributed the research to the magazine or the "Oxford Hair Foundation". However, a HowStuffWorks article says that the foundation was funded by hair-dye maker Procter & Gamble, and that other experts had dismissed the research as either lacking in evidence or simply bogus. The National Geographic article in fact states "while redheads may decline, the potential for red isn't going away".[31]
Red hair is caused by a relatively rare recessive gene, the expression of which can skip generations. It is not likely to disappear at any time in the foreseeable future.[31]
Quote: mickpkI'm from AU and whilst I don't know (nor could find) the origins of the term to describe redheads, it certainly isn't due to Ginger from Gilligan's Island, at least as far as AU is concerned.
While the word "ginger" with reference to the spice is at least 900 years old, it has been used as a color since the 16th century. Dickens specifically used it for hair color in 1865. So it well predates television by centuries.
Something like 35% of Irish and Scots carry the recessive gene, so nearly all mating in these countries would have to stop to eliminate the gene entirely.
Quote: WizardI'm not sure I understand the question, but as long as people with the recessive gene are mating as often as those who don't then the percentage of the population that has it should stay the same. It is not that the dominant gene kills off the weaker one. The recessive gene just sits there quietly, and when the owner mates the recessive gene has the same 50/50 chance of being passed on as the dominant one.
If evolutionary forces have been at work for millions of years, then there must be many recessive genes that are no longer expressed due to them simply being diluted over the course of generations. Recessive carriers may be mating at the same rate, but not with each other due to the sheer, and (growing) numbers of competing genes in the pool.
If recessive genes have simply been, "going along for the ride" though hundreds of thousands of generations, why don't we have Africans with naturally straight hair, or the occassional Neanderthal skulled baby?
Or maybe we do?
I would think that after some time, evolution would dictate that the less helpful traits would fall to the wayside. Are red hair, freckles, green eyes, and a higher risk of melanoma, competitive traits from an evolutionary standpoint?
Quote: AyecarumbaI would think that after some time, evolution would dictate that the less helpful traits would fall to the wayside. Are red hair, freckles, green eyes, and a higher risk of melanoma, competitive traits from an evolutionary standpoint?
They might be.
Consider sickle-cell anemia. It's caused by a recessive gene. One reason it's still around is that people with only one gene are less suceptible to malaria. Therefore in places like sub-Saharan Africa, where malaria is rampant, that gene survives well in recessive form.
I've no idea if something similar has been at work with red hair, but is' not out of the question.
Quote: AyecarumbaI would think that after some time, evolution would dictate that the less helpful traits would fall to the wayside. Are red hair, freckles, green eyes, and a higher risk of melanoma, competitive traits from an evolutionary standpoint?
That is true. However, I don't think that red hair is a less-helpful trait. Regarding melanoma, maybe they have a lower rate of that, because their increased exposure to sunburn would keep them out of the sun more in the first place. Pale skin should also be able to more effectively create vitamin D, all other things being equal.
Nareed brought up Cystic Fibrosis. In my Jun 29, 2011 Ask the Wizard column I showed how the carrier rate should drop from 4% to 2% in 50 generations if those who carry both genes don't have children. Likewise, I think that the only way red heads will die out is if there an evolutionary disadvantage to red hair, which I just don't buy.
Here is the show in which Chelsea Handler claims that unless red heads mate with each other they will die off. Jump to about the 4:50 point where they start to discuss it. Julianne Moore jokes that they don't make, comparing it to a brother and sister. Even if that were true I still maintain that they wouldn't die out. For every one child they didn't have together they would pass along a red-haired gene to two kids.
They mention on the show a story about a sperm bank refusing red-headed men as donors. Here is an article about it: Sperm Bank Refuses Red-haired Men. However, this sperm bank was in Denmark, where red hair is not as in demand. They advise would-be red-haired donors to visit a sperm bank in Ireland.
Basically, if Chelsea Handler was trying to make the argument that red heads are dying out, it didn't pass a test of scientific scrutiny, with me at least.
Any redheads on the forum, by the way?
Quote: WizardThat is true. However, I don't think that red hair is a less-helpful trait. Regarding melanoma, maybe they have a lower rate of that, because their increased exposure to sunburn would keep them out of the sun more in the first place. Pale skin should also be able to more effectively create vitamin D, all other things being equal.
Pale skin or white people in general is really a lack of color. All humans have mostly white material under the epidermis. Gorillas and chimpanzees are white under their fur.
The evolutionary advantage of increased production of Vitamin D, would at first glance seem to be offset by the higher probability of getting skin cancer. However, most people get skin cancer after they reproduce, and so is irrelevant to natural selection.
The long standing hypothesis was that white (or semi transparent) skin became the norm in large populations about 40K years when the migration into Europe began. Newer theories associate it with the change of diet due to farming (less than 10K years ago). The aborigines in Siberia and Alaska do not have light skin despite the lack of sunlight, but this discrepancy is associated with the fish in their diet which provided them with plenty of Vitamin D.
White people in America
1790 80.7%
1940 89.8% (highest)
2010 72.4%
Quote: AyecarumbaI would think that after some time, evolution would dictate that the less helpful traits would fall to the wayside. Are red hair, freckles, green eyes, and a higher risk of melanoma, competitive traits from an evolutionary standpoint?
Will this specimen be able to survive long enough to reproduce, and will she be able to find a willing mate in order to do so?
So yes, I believe these are competitive traits.
Quote: WizardPale skin should also be able to more effectively create vitamin D, all other things being equal.
That's why pale skin came to be in the first place.
Quote:Likewise, I think that the only way red heads will die out is if there an evolutionary disadvantage to red hair, which I just don't buy.
That's not the whole story. genes tend to survive if they confer an advantage. Take the sickle cell example. But then malaria is not the problem it used to be. in some palces it's even been wiped out. So the incidence of the gene will go down. Hell, many people with that gene now live in places where malaria is somethign yuo read about in books and may see on the news sometimes.
Quote: progrockerWill this specimen be able to survive long enough to reproduce, and will she be able to find a willing mate in order to do so?
So yes, I believe these are competitive traits.
Felicia Day, the goddess of geekdom.
Quote: WizardThat is true. However, I don't think that red hair is a less-helpful trait. Regarding melanoma, maybe they have a lower rate of that, because their increased exposure to sunburn would keep them out of the sun more in the first place. Pale skin should also be able to more effectively create vitamin D, all other things being equal.
Nareed brought up Cystic Fibrosis. In my Jun 29, 2011 Ask the Wizard column I showed how the carrier rate should drop from 4% to 2% in 50 generations if those who carry both genes don't have children. Likewise, I think that the only way red heads will die out is if there an evolutionary disadvantage to red hair, which I just don't buy.
Here is the show in which Chelsea Handler claims that unless red heads mate with each other they will die off. Jump to about the 4:50 point where they start to discuss it. Julianne Moore jokes that they don't make, comparing it to a brother and sister. Even if that were true I still maintain that they wouldn't die out. For every one child they didn't have together they would pass along a red-haired gene to two kids.
They mention on the show a story about a sperm bank refusing red-headed men as donors. Here is an article about it: Sperm Bank Refuses Red-haired Men. However, this sperm bank was in Denmark, where red hair is not as in demand. They advise would-be red-haired donors to visit a sperm bank in Ireland.
Basically, if Chelsea Handler was trying to make the argument that red heads are dying out, it didn't pass a test of scientific scrutiny, with me at least.
Any redheads on the forum, by the way?
Putting all the politics aside, what do you make of the "Born this way. Homosexuality is not a choice." position? Clearly, genetic gayness is not supported from an evolutionary standpoint. Any genetic based preponderance should die out within one generation of expression due to lack of offspring to carry the genes forward.
Quote: AyecarumbaPutting all the politics aside, what do you make of the "Born this way. Homosexuality is not a choice." position? Clearly, genetic gayness is not supported from an evolutionary standpoint. Any genetic based preponderance should die out within one generation of expression due to lack of offspring to carry the genes forward.
I don't think this follows at all.
Genes aren't that simple where two people not exhibiting trait X cannot have a child exhibiting trait X. Gene expression is a wonderfully complex thing, and even having a particular set of genes at birth doesn't mean you'll express those genes in the same way as another person. Moreover, you have to accept there would be one place in the genome that corresponds to "gayness" (or any other complex trait) and that's not how the genome works.
Quote: thecesspitI don't think this follows at all.
Since we're on the topic, not everything that is congenital is also genetic.
These tests are not yet FDA approved, but such genetic marker kits are being used in research hospitals.
Here is the math problem at hand. According to todayifoundout.com, 4% of the population has red hair. That would make the red hair gene rate sqr(0.04)=20%. Let's assume that to be true. Next, assume that two red heads will never mate, instead seeking out someone else. Also assume that everybody has a fertility rate of 2. After one generation, what percentage of the population will be:
A) Red heads (two positive genes)?
B) Carriers (one positive and one negative gene)?
C) Negative (two negative genes)?
Here are my answers:
A 3.8889%
B 32.2222%
C 63.8889%
This results in the same 20% ratio of red hair genes. What ends up happening is 0.1111% of both red heads and non-carriers move to the carrier group, compared to what would happen if there was no preference for hair color at all. This is because the red heads that won't mate with each other are more proportionately drawn to type C. When type A and C mate, it always results in type B offspring. Meanwhile there are not as many C-C matings, because the redheads are poaching the type C group, which results in fewer type C offspring the next generation.
Quote: AyecarumbaPutting all the politics aside, what do you make of the "Born this way. Homosexuality is not a choice." position? Clearly, genetic gayness is not supported from an evolutionary standpoint. Any genetic based preponderance should die out within one generation of expression due to lack of offspring to carry the genes forward.
I agree with "born this way." That is as far as I can take that.
Quote: WizardThanks, Chelsea, I've been spending all morning on the math of this.
Let's take a practical case, namely mine:
My mother has red hair, though she's been dying(sp?) it blond ever since I can remember. Two of my siblings have red heair. This would suggest my dad carried the gene. The suggestion is borne out seeing as three of my cousins (maybe five) have red hair.
I don't have red hair, as you know, but I do have freckles and I get more freckles if I get any sun unless I wear sunscreen. And judging by electrolysis and how well the topical anesthetic hasn't worked, I'd say I have a low threshold of pain.
Now, as to my nephews and nieces, and my cousins' children, none have red hair.
Quote: NareedThis would suggest my dad carried the gene. The suggestion is borne out seeing as three of my cousins (maybe five) have red hair.
You don't even need to consider the cousins, he definitely was a carrier. Your red-haired siblings needed to get the red-hair gene from both parents. When it coin was flipped, you didn't get that gene from your father, but you are a carrier from your mother's side.
of her children had a hint of it. My dad
had black hair.
Quote: thecesspitI saw 5, 17 and 32 come on a roulette wheel the other day.
So did Jerry Logan, only he bet on each and cleaned up.
Quote: ahiromuJust to clarify, the South Park episode was 9x11 and Cartman (Fatass) basically rips on gingers and his friends decide to make him into one. While he's sleeping they beat him silly then dye his hair and bleach his skin.
The doctor diagnoses him as having Gingervitis.
Quote: progrockerWill this specimen be able to survive long enough to reproduce, and will she be able to find a willing mate in order to do so?
So yes, I believe these are competitive traits.
Unfortunately, not all redheads are built alike...
