Tithing

My interpretation of this is also an affirmation of the separation of church and state. That religion is not meant to be a substitute for or to compete with government.

I think a practical application is that if you were down to your last dollar, and owed it in taxes, and passed a beggar on the street who needed the dollar for food and shelter on your way to the tax collector, the biblical thing to do with be to pass him by and still pay the dollar to the tax man, since it is "Caesar's" dollar. Giving it to the beggar would be stealing it from Caesar.

This may be getting off topic a bit, but I think a practical application to believers out there would be whether or not to tithe on gross or net income. If "net," what counts as "net." It would seem not fair to me if you had to tithe based on money you earned you never got your hands on due to taxes. However, if we then justify "net," should you get to deduct for taxes that are partially for your own benefit, like Social Security. I'd be interested to hear from believers how the tithing rule is supposed to be applied.

Quote: Wizard

. I'd be interested to hear from believers how the tithing rule is supposed to be applied.

A percentage of take home is what our parish suggests. Tithing isn't required but they do supply us with collection envelopes with various suggested amounts based on weekly take home.

Quote: Wizard

This may be getting off topic a bit, but I think a practical application to believers out there would be whether or not to tithe on gross or net income. If "net," what counts as "net." It would seem not fair to me if you had to tithe based on money you earned you never got your hands on due to taxes. However, if we then justify "net," should you get to deduct for taxes that are partially for your own benefit, like Social Security. I'd be interested to hear from believers how the tithing rule is supposed to be applied.

I've never heard it as "net", always as "gross" whenever I've happened upon this discussion. Gross is, after all, what YOU make. If we look at taxes as a money due for the "benefits' (ahem) of living where you live, then how is it different than a mortgage, a car payment, etc. In the financial world it's different, yes, but thinking "big picture" it is but a cost, just like your many others.

I'm sure someone more qualified will gice a more definitive answer.

Quote: Face

I've never heard it as "net", always as "gross" whenever I've happened upon this discussion.

Marginal tax rates have been as high as 92% in the United States (source). What would an upstanding believer do in that situation, where after paying Caesar he didn't have enough left over for his tithe?

Quote: Wizard

Marginal tax rates have been as high as 92% in the United States (source). What would an upstanding believer do in that situation, where after paying Caesar he didn't have enough left over for his tithe?

Keep in mind, 100% of my non-WoV discussion are barely intellectual ;) The last time I recall discussing this topic was 5-7 years ago, and it was about "right now" (or right then), and not so much "what has the church stated in it's history".

Also, these people weren't what I would consider learned, certainly nowhere near our FrGamble. Could be that was simply their belief, or what they did, or what they WANTED me to believe, I really can't say. I just know I have never heard it as net, and have heard it as gross.

Edit: and I think you already have the answer on what to do if you haven't enough left over. Pay Caesar, yes, then give what you can. I would think God to be very much a "it's the thought that counts" type of deity. If your last dollar is meant for tithe, and you see your beggar, pay the tithe, then invite the beggar to your own dinner. While tithe, whether net or gross, is very absolute in it's statement of 10%, my understanding of the religion makes me think the thought and feeling behind it makes the most difference of all. Kind of similar to the utility discussions we have when wealth redistribution is mentioned. Which is a better tithe, a man who gives exactly 10% gross willingly and can afford it, or a man who gives <10% and makes great sacrifice to at least contribute as much as he can?

Quote: Wizard

Marginal tax rates have been as high as 92% in the United States (source). What would an upstanding believer do in that situation, where after paying Caesar he didn't have enough left over for his tithe?

By believer I think you mean a Christian believer. As far as I know there is no command for a Christian to pay a tithe (tenth) in the New Testament. The tithe was for jews in the old testament to pay for the temple and such.

As far as offerings in the new testament it appears that its more of "its the thought that counts". The attitude and motives for giving is more important than the gift itself (as some people have said in this thread already that God doesn't need the money/gift). For example if a rich person donates a building to a church with the condition that his name be put on the building his motives would be wrong. Another example would be someone who pays a tithe (tenth) of his paycheck grudgingly.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

As far as I know there is no command for a Christian to pay a tithe (tenth) in the New Testament. The tithe was for jews in the old testament to pay for the temple and such.

This gets right to something I have never understood about Christianity, its position on the Old Testament. Christians all walk around with a bible including the OT, but are quick to dismiss it as the "old law," when they don't agree with it. However, when one wants to support a position against homosexuality or for the death penalty, the old testament is suddenly in favor again. I would have a lot more respect for Christianity if it didn't straddle the fence when it comes to the OT.

Back to tithing, by omission you seem to imply by omission that the OT does command followers to tithe. Can you show me specifically where Jesus struck down the OT tithing rules? If you say that Jesus struck down the entire OT, then why do Christians use it at all? So, for crying out loud, take a position on the OT -- aye or nay.

I really don't know about this tithing stuff, ...I'm not religious and have no religious training.

I do know that bankruptcy courts have been faced with this issue of a debtor attempting to assert his rights to tithe versus his creditors claiming that he can indeed tithe but only with his, not their, money.

Quote: Wizard

Back to tithing, by omission you seem to imply by omission that the OT does command followers to tithe. Can you show me specifically where Jesus struck down the OT tithing rules? If you say that Jesus struck down the entire OT, then why do Christians use it at all? So, for crying out loud, take a position on the OT -- aye or nay.

In regards to tithing, based upon New Testament teaching, most Christian churches reference the following as to why tithing is no longer commanded today:

2 Corinthians 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

1 Corinthians 16:2 the following statement, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Most Christians believe that Jesus Christ through his fulfillment of the Old Law (Testament), fulfillment of prophecies and through his death put away or done away with the Old Law (as referenced in the Bible as the covenant God made with Moses, the Ten Commandments) and established a new covenant with man that of grace and mercy. So Christians shouldn't dismiss the Old Testament, but should use it for guidance and reference to our lives today. I believe when most Christians say they don't follow the Old Testament what they really should be saying is that they are no longer under the Ten Commandments and they don't need the sacrifice of blood and animals anymore, but through Christ's death on the cross their sins are washed away and they have the chance to enter heaven through God's grace and mercy.

I am Christian and that is my understanding of the OT/NT.

Quote: Wizard

This gets right to something I have never understood about Christianity, its position on the Old Testament. Christians all walk around with a bible including the OT, but are quick to dismiss it as the "old law," when they don't agree with it. However, when one wants to support a position against homosexuality or for the death penalty, the old testament is suddenly in favor again. I would have a lot more respect for Christianity if it didn't straddle the fence when it comes to the OT.

Back to tithing, by omission you seem to imply by omission that the OT does command followers to tithe. Can you show me specifically where Jesus struck down the OT tithing rules? If you say that Jesus struck down the entire OT, then why do Christians use it at all? So, for crying out loud, take a position on the OT -- aye or nay.

I completely agree with you that many Christians pick and choose which commandments to follow and which commandments are regarded as cultural for the times and don't need to be followed in modern times. But whether or not it is ok to murder or whether you should be able to cut the hair on the sides of your head are not comparable. Jesus didn't strike down the old testament but rather fulfills all of its laws and prophecies. No human can possibly follow all of its laws and thats why Christians look to Jesus for their salvation. The New Testament addresses some of the main points like sexual sin/homosexuality (romans), dietary laws, circumsision and tithing.

As for tithing the spirit of the new testament is give all you can. This is in fact more "strict" than just giving the ten percent asked for in the old testament. For example the story in Luke 21. Rich men gave large sums of money which was a small part of their income while the poor widow gave two pennies in faith which was all she could. Jesus said she was more blessed.

Edit: apologies, I didnt see the post above because it was placed while I was writing mine, so I'm not ganging up. Now I feel lame because that one is much better.

+1 to SONBP2.

My wife, who is pretty much fundamentalist Christian struggles with the OT/NT thing. For me, the new testament acknowledges that we are all sinners, and that Jesus was crucified to save us from ourselves. It's the founding of Christianity and introduces a blanket foregiveness (as long as we believe) for all and a path to heaven for all.

The old testament and all of its teaching is just guidance, to me. I think the bible's position on homosexuality is that it IS a sin (but so is adultery). In fact, I've learned through the teaching of Luther that even thinking about having sex with another person besides my wife is adultery. It is up to God to judge us, not to us to judge others. We're all sinners, some worse than others. Jesus' death gives us a path to forgiveness and heaven.

Quote: Wizard

I think a practical application is that if you were down to your last dollar, and owed it in taxes, and passed a beggar on the street who needed the dollar for food and shelter on your way to the tax collector, the biblical thing to do with be to pass him by and still pay the dollar to the tax man, since it is "Caesar's" dollar. Giving it to the beggar would be stealing it from Caesar.

I have to disagree. I think Jesus taught that everything (including everything owned by, and of the government) was God's and under His control. This would mean meeting the need of the beggar was not stealing from Caesar, since it was all God's to begin with. I think Jesus might point out that you could do both, since the beggar's need is not just for your last dollar (perhaps you could give him your cloak, teach him to fish... or sell some of your license plate collection to pay the tax and late fees later.)

There are two things each of us needs to do:

1) Love God
2) Love your neighbor

Everything else is tertiary.

Jesus taught that "the poor you will always have with you..." (Matt. 26:11a), so the challenge when faced with the beggar, is "what is his need, and how can I best address it?" This is a question ultimately answered between the individual and God (assuming the individual asks).