Ask a Catholic
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerBut how do these things relate to my understanding of Christian theology? Isn't corruption of good things an eons-old way of gaining personal advantage? Why would Christianity (true or not) be immune to that?
The whole Christian religion is built on one thing and one thing only: Original Sin. Forget everything else. They believe we're born dirty, filthy sinners and there's no way we can get out of it except by being saved. By the very entity that imposed the sin on us in the first place. They believe that if there is a god, all he has time for is playing ridiculous games with the people he 'created'. Does this scenerio sound familiar? Invent a fake disease or crisis, and invent the fake remedy. But the remedy costs something. It makes you join the cult of the 'saved' and give money to it. It also demands that you try and convert non believers, so they can keep the scheme going. Oldest 'long con' in the world.
Quote: buzzpaffIf there was no God, man would need to invent one.
That would neatly explain the hundreds of gods men have invented over the ages.
Quote: EvenBobThe whole Christian religion is built on one thing and one thing only: Original Sin. Forget everything else. They believe we're born dirty, filthy sinners and there's no way we can get out of it except by being saved. By the very entity that imposed the sin on us in the first place. They believe that if there is a god, all he has time for is playing ridiculous games with the people he 'created'. Does this scenerio sound familiar? Invent a fake disease or crisis, and invent the fake remedy. But the remedy costs something. It makes you join the cult of the 'saved' and give money to it. It also demands that you try and convert non believers, so they can keep the scheme going. Oldest 'long con' in the world.
What my understanding of the Christian theology is, you're exactly right ... until the point where, I think, you say that sin was imposed on men by any entity other than himself. You know the whole Garden of Eden story, allegory or literal ... men chose their own path; it wasn't imposed by anyone other than (literal or allegorical) Adam.
If the Christian theology is right, then it makes perfect sense that a real remedy is needed for a real malady. Also, if the Christian theology is right about Hell, then any truly compassionate person would try to save anyone they could from it, even to the point of (what must, from the outside, seem like) ridiculous, crazy desperation. If your child was in danger, you would do anything ... ANYTHING ... no matter how ridiculous or desperate, to save him. I think the Christians view the salvation issue with that kind of gravity, if not more.
I'm not saying I believe it. I'm saying that's my understanding of the theology.
Subtle difference, but there's less about "the evil that men do" and more about "the good we are all capable of" in the churches I was raised in.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerYou know the whole Garden of Eden story, allegory or literal ... men chose their own path; it wasn't imposed by anyone other than (literal or allegorical) Adam.
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But god caused it, so the story says. He knows the future, he knew what would happen. Adam and Eve is a pleasant story, read a lot of Joseph Campbell and you're entire view on all religions will change.
As far as hell goes, here's a question I've asked dozens of people over the years. Do you worry about dead loved ones and where they might be. Are you afraid for them, do you feel sorry for them. I've never had this answered adequately. Most people don't want to talk about it. Thats because its a stupid question! We never worry about where the dead are, we instinctively know they're OK, without having to think about it. Why is this true?
Quote: EvenBobBut god caused it, so the story says. He knows the future, he knew what would happen. Adam and Eve is a pleasant story, read a lot of Joseph Campbell and you're entire view on all religions will change.
Yeah, that's the whole Christian idea of predestination and free will. Frankly, it's one of the biggest hurdles for me. I've heard it likened to a train track ... the rails never meet but you need them to not meet for the train to run smoothly, and people should focus on the whole thing, not just the rails.
Another way I've heard it put is that, since God created time, he's outside of it in a similar way that the second dimension is outside the first dimension. Therefore, God sees all perspectives of the timeline while we only see it from one perspective. Kind of like Flatland. In that sense, he "knows" it would happen, but to watch something happening is not the same thing as making it happen.
Lots of Christian theology makes sense to me, but not these parts. So, if it means anything, those questions strike me as honest ones.
Quote: EvenBobAs far as hell goes, here's a question I've asked dozens of people over the years. Do you worry about dead loved ones and where they might be. Are you afraid for them, do you feel sorry for them. I've never had this answered adequately. Most people don't want to talk about it. Thats because its a stupid question! We never worry about where the dead are, we instinctively know they're OK, without having to think about it. Why is this true?
I would not make the connection "don't want to talk about it" = "stupid question". While it's true that stupidity is one reason why we don't talk about things, there are lots of other reasons, both nefarious and honest.
I'm not sure what you mean by "instinctively know they're OK." Can you describe that some more?
Quote: EvenBobAs far as hell goes, here's a question I've asked dozens of people over the years. Do you worry about dead loved ones and where they might be. Are you afraid for them, do you feel sorry for them. I've never had this answered adequately. Most people don't want to talk about it. Thats because its a stupid question! We never worry about where the dead are, we instinctively know they're OK, without having to think about it. Why is this true?
I'm Catholic and I differ from the church in this respect. I have often thought about loved ones who've passed on but like you say, there's no sense worrying about them now. I believe in heaven but I do not believe in hell. We get enough of that right here, and if what we're taught about the afterlife is true (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) then everyone who's ever lived should end up in heaven. The "bad guys" will eventually go there, but they'll be held back out of the glory for a time commensurate with their human frailty. There's no reason why our God would ever sentence anyone who's ever lived on this crazy planet to a neverending future of endless suffering. It just doesn't fit with what we were educated on.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer
I'm not sure what you mean by "instinctively know they're OK." Can you describe that some more?
I've lost many friends and relatives in my life. Both my parents died in the 90's. Do I ever wonder where they are? Do I ever wonder if their OK? It never even occurs to me. Nor have I ever heard anybody else ask about somebody who died, "I wonder how they are?"
I think its instinctual that we know they're fine. Its instinctual that we know death is a part of life. Its instinctual because we've been through it before. Not in the reincarnation way, but in the 'life goes on' way. We inhabit a body till it can no longer survive and we go on with life in another body or form. Why else would we stop being afraid of death for somebody who has died? We were worried sick about their eternal souls when they were alive, if our religion required it. But as soon as they die, we never give it another thought. I find that very curious behavior.
Quote: NareedBecause they want to believe and can pick and choose.
I don't believe in any kind of god because I've seen no evidence of any. For the same reason I don't believe in an afterlife, but I would like it if there were one. I would like to believe there is one, too, but I know that wishing won't make it so.
Many of the doctrines define the "afterlife" as a thing you *have to* believe in if you are to get anything good out of it.
Even if you don't see any evidence for it, it would make sense to believe in it anyway - the lack of evidence doesn't mean it does not exist, but if it does, you are better off believing than not believing, and if it doesn't, then it does not matter if you believe in it or not.
Quote: weaselmanMany of the doctrines define the "afterlife" as a thing you *have to* believe in if you are to get anything good out of it.
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Ya, somebody is always selling something, aren't they.
Quote: EvenBobYa, somebody is always selling something, aren't they.
It is not a selling point. It's just an attempt to answer the question why so many people believe. I am not saying they are consciously making a rational decision like this, just that subconsciously the belief in afterlife is associated with more positive motivation, and that explains why more people choose it instead of the opposite decision.
I do believe.
Quote: JL2I do believe.
I could tell :)
Quote:When we've had the most violent of protests in this country for one reason or another, it's never those with conservative values out there throwing rocks and setting cars on fire.
The usual answer to this is "Crusades". But you did mention "this country" ... So, "witch trials"
Quote: JL2the ones who do believe have a strong sense of family and hard work, being noble, giving of themselves freely, and caring for the plight of others-ie, basically good conservative values;
Seriously? I think it's the leaders of those organized religions who are the most corrupt, filling their own pockets from the collection plates, molesting little boys because their religions forbid them to marry. Think Jim and Tammy Faye, Benny Hinn, etc. Those in a position of godly authority are supposed to be held to a higher standard than the sheep they rule over, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Spanish Inquisition, anyone?) Apparently, Thou shalt not steal, and Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's wife doesn't apply to them. Temptation is too great, they succumb, then ask forgiveness and get it? You can do that once, but if they stray and steal every week, then confess every Sunday, how many times can they be forgiven for the same crime? Into the Pit of Fire, I say!
Quote: weaselmanI could tell :)
The usual answer to this is "Crusades". But you did mention "this country" ... So, "witch trials"
Modern day please. Most have since learned and grown. Whenever we see protests it's not unusual to see 100% of those involved as clueless students, the rainbow crowd, beatnicks from the past, and those who will wait forever for a handout rather than go out and do whatever work possible to put food on the table.
Quote: zippyboySeriously? I think it's the leaders of those organized religions who are the most corrupt, filling their own pockets from the collection plates, molesting little boys because their religions forbid them to marry. Think Jim and Tammy Faye, Benny Hinn, etc. Those in a position of godly authority are supposed to be held to a higher standard than the sheep they rule over, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Spanish Inquisition, anyone?) Apparently, Thou shalt not steal, and Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's wife doesn't apply to them. Temptation is too great, they succumb, then ask forgiveness and get it? You can do that once, but if they stray and steal every week, then confess every Sunday, how many times can they be forgiven for the same crime? Into the Pit of Fire, I say!
I also agree our leaders are greedy and corrupt for the most part. But those beneath them cannot be described in the same way. Power dissolves nearly everyone's virtues. I know people in my church who have executive positions at big companies, their children get spoiled, and I've seen them steal from the collection baskets.
Quote: zippyboySeriously? I think it's the leaders of those organized religions who are the most corrupt, filling their own pockets from the collection plates, molesting little boys because their religions forbid them to marry. Think Jim and Tammy Faye, Benny Hinn, etc. Those in a position of godly authority are supposed to be held to a higher standard than the sheep they rule over, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Spanish Inquisition, anyone?) Apparently, Thou shalt not steal, and Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's wife doesn't apply to them. Temptation is too great, they succumb, then ask forgiveness and get it? You can do that once, but if they stray and steal every week, then confess every Sunday, how many times can they be forgiven for the same crime? Into the Pit of Fire, I say!
So you are saying Sister Teresa and Pope John Paul II were the most corrupt? Seriously, you will find corruption at all kinds of levels of all kinds of places. Whether it is the local community group that throws printing of the T-Shirts to a favored merchant or the "tireless fundraiser" who somehow scrapes off 50% as "costs." Heck, I gave $15 to one of those "buy a wounded vet Thanksgiving Dinner," all I could afford at the time. Since I have gotten countless requests for more, and I have gotten $2 in CASH in the envelopes! Someone is running a business there so I will not donate to them again.
The Jim-and-Tammy Faye crowd is not what I would call a serious religious group. It is more "junk-food religion."
JL2 does make a good point about behavior, though. Recently we saw union supporters being dragged out of the WI Capitol because they disagreed with a new law. We all remember how when Obamacare was being passed and all those Tea Party Types were bodily dragged from the US Capitol Grounds kicking and screaming.
Wait, you don't remember? Right! Because the second thing never happened!
Quote: JL2Modern day please.
Ku Klux Klan? Army of God? Hutaree?
Note, that this is not very fair comparison too. I am limited to naming the groups, who commit violence in the name of God, while you are just talking violence in general. I mean, how do we know that none of those union supporters AZDuffman mentioned above, believe in God?
I think the previous pope smote Purgatory with a wave of his magic staff. Please correct this Atheist if I happen to be wrong. So the answer to the question would be Zero.Quote: WizardOkay, Catholics, how much time in purgatory do I have to serve for that?
Quote: EvenBobI've lost many friends and relatives in my life. Both my parents died in the 90's. Do I ever wonder where they are? Do I ever wonder if their OK? It never even occurs to me. Nor have I ever heard anybody else ask about somebody who died, "I wonder how they are?"
I think its instinctual that we know they're fine. Its instinctual that we know death is a part of life. Its instinctual because we've been through it before. Not in the reincarnation way, but in the 'life goes on' way. We inhabit a body till it can no longer survive and we go on with life in another body or form. Why else would we stop being afraid of death for somebody who has died? We were worried sick about their eternal souls when they were alive, if our religion required it. But as soon as they die, we never give it another thought. I find that very curious behavior.
Wow, this sounds very personal. I'll try to tread lightly. Please understand that the context that I'm speaking in is my understanding of Christian theology and NOT where your parents are.
As best I understand you, it sounds like you're describing a Conservation of Life theory, kind of like the Conservation of Energy, in that Life isn't created (except at first) or destroyed, but only changes form. I'm sure that Christian theology doesn't hold that view, and that view never made sense to me. If there's anything life does, it's expand and grow. It does so obeying the Law of Conservation of Energy, but the "Life Pie" can get bigger even though the "Energy Pie" can't. Kind of like a Venn diagram where Circle Energy completely engulfs Circle Life, but Circle Life can get bigger - and smaller - within Circle Energy.
The way that Christian theology describes human existence (as best I understand it) is that humans are a ray. In math, a ray has a starting point and then proceeds forever. The Christians believe that humans have a starting point (conception) and are eternal from that point. At some point in time, humans die, but the soul lives on eternally.
I think the Christians might address your question about "instinctively know they're OK" like this. When you die, the "hay is in the barn." There's no more opportunity to do good, do evil, or to believe in Jesus's work. What you believe and what you've done in life up to that point determines the rest of your eternity.
(There are the questions about what happens to animals, babies, mentally incapable people, and people who never heard of Jesus, but for the sake of this discussion, let's assume we're talking about people like your parents, adult humans who were mentally capable, who have heard the story of Jesus, made a decision about him, etc.)
In this way, Christians don't worry about the dead in the same way that we don't worry about the result of Super Bowl XXX (or a roulette spin or whatever). It's done. We may talk about it, reflect on it, wonder what might have been different, etc. But the result is no longer a question, and nothing can happen to change it.
In a similar way, Christians don't worry about the dead, because their eternity is sealed; the "hay is in the barn." They worry about people who are still in a position to change their eternity; i.e, the living. This analogy isn't perfect, but I think it explains the Christian's view pretty closely.
I've lost both parents, too. I don't WORRY about them, but I also don't have any assurance as to their eternal fate.
Yes in the LDS church all the rules are changed. Since one of the main tenants of the LDS church is the gospel from Jesus's ministry in ancient America which is uniquely there's.
As Weasel alluded to Limbo has always been a policy in Limbo. The current Pope says Limbo has always been a 'theological hypothesis'. In the 1960's the Church started giving the same funeral rites to unbaptized children as to baptized ones. But Jesus stated "Let the children come to me unhindered" which the church has taken as a sign that even unbaptized children will receive the mercy of God.
I cannot comment on Eastern Orthodox.
Hell in the latest Catechism of the Catholic Church states that those without Eternal Sin will be redeemed. This is in direct correlation of when Jesus said
“Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they shall have blasphemed: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ‘He has an unclean spirit’” (Mark 3:28-29). He clearly makes a distinction to "Eternal Sin" and in the CCC Eternal Sin is Blasphemy against The Holy Spirit.
TO Wiz:
The best way Hell was described to me many a year ago was the equivalent of a paranoid schizo to a sane person. They can both be in a quiet pleasant room but the Paranoid in his mind is in a tortured place full of nothing but fear and danger. So with Hell being the Lack Of Gods love I would interpret it to being devoid of all hope, beauty, without even the hope of death ending it.
The concept of Father, Son, Holy Spirit is a bit of a loop. They are three separate identities but simultaneously one. As to blasphemy against any of the Three it is the same sin as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind simple blasphemous statements do not rise to Eternal Sin.
To AZDuff Hell does exist. Hell is to live w/o Gods grace. You also found the point that the Church was dealing wiht for ages that without an eternal Hell what's the point of doing good. Over the centuries the concept of Hell was used as a society safety check and the concept of salvation from hell was less emphasized.
Itscalledsoccer Good description of the Churches view on Hell. Gonna steal it :) Also I think in later years the idea of the fires of hell is less needed in a society where all social norms and rules are administered by the state. In the Dark Ages the idea of eternal fire was the only form of retribution to keep people in line.
Zippy has a point. I think in terms of peoples beliefs it should be an internal/eternal search. If belief in a higher power lifts you and helps you go for it. If not thats fine too.
EvenBob the idea of Original Sin goes far far back. Baptism is common in many ancient religions. Some use fire. Prefer water here! It was a common concept.
But oddly for the WoV forum we have seem to descended into extremes.
I don't worry about the dead, as the dead are dead.
I can do nothing for them, except remember them, and in some small way that memory keeps them alive. At least to me and their other friends and family, and that helps. I'll worry about the living who I can help, through hard work, chairty and my values.
I don't believe. I haven't been on a riot either. Perhaps I should start.
Quote: Wavy70The best way Hell was described to me many a year ago was the equivalent of a paranoid schizo to a sane person. They can both be in a quiet pleasant room but the Paranoid in his mind is in a tortured place full of nothing but fear and danger. So with Hell being the Lack Of Gods love I would interpret it to being devoid of all hope, beauty, without even the hope of death ending it.
Quote: Wavy70Itscalledsoccer Good description of the Churches view on Hell. Gonna steal it :) Also I think in later years the idea of the fires of hell is less needed in a society where all social norms and rules are administered by the state. In the Dark Ages the idea of eternal fire was the only form of retribution to keep people in line.
Your post is a lot longer, but I picked these two pieces for a particular reason. Overall, my impression is that you've picked and chosen out of several theologies and philosophies and composed your own (for lack of a better word) Wavy-ism religion. I can see why you and others do this, but it always struck me as a little reckless and, if the soul really is eternal, damnable.
The best way I can think to explain it is this. Let's say you want to see a lighthouse at a New England beach and enjoy the beautiful day while you're there. Let's say you're leaving from, oh, Albany, NY and don't know your way around New England. You can either choose to use a map, or you can choose not to. If you use a map, you must depend on the shared and accumulated knowledge of others, but you'll get to where you want to go. If you don't use a map, you get to make up your own path and find your own way. But while you may have some fun times along the way, you would only end up where you want to go by the unlikeliest of coincidences.
Let's add some stakes: your wife and children are with you and are depending on you to get them to the lighthouse and the beach. If you don't get there, you ruin a lot of people's days, people you care about very much. All because you didn't want to depend on the accumulated knowledge of others.
I think Theology (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, whatever) is like the map. You can try to find your own way - invent your own Wavy-ism - and you may have some laughs along the way. But if you want to get to where the theology wants to take you, you have to depend on the map. Add some stakes: what you teach or don't teach your children about the map (whichever one you choose to teach them about) greatly affects their eternities.
So the question becomes, do you (not Wavy-you, but generic-you) have so much confidence in your own way that you think you are more learned, more intelligent, wiser, etc., than generation upon generation of humans before you, when the people who depend on you the most and you love the most - their eternities - are on the line, that you won't use a map?
To me, the answer seemed obvious. Theology has its place, but in the end, you still have your own "religious experience." The Theology Map only guides you to where to go, how to get there, what to do along the way, and what to do when you're there.
It could all be bullshit. But as the folks on the board know, I'm not ready to throw the "feel" part of life out in favor of the exclusive use of the "think" part. And, I also think that no matter how well or smart you "think," that part can't answer plenty of important life-questions.
Anyway, I chose those two snippets because, as best I understand Christian theology, it would kind-of disagree. The analogy of the schizophrenic is, I think, a good one, because a damned person's mind can ONLY think like that. But I think Christianity surrounds that schizo with an actual, physical (whatever that means in the afterlife) place that does nothing but affirm his in-brain perception. Another way to say it (kind of) is, a schizo in hell is perfectly sane because everything he's paranoid about is actually there and happening.
As far as the fire and brimstone analogy, I think that's poetry. There MIGHT be literal fire and literal brimstone in the Christian hell, but there might not be. I think it's a poetic description, using the worst example they had at the time of something they knew, and thought to be LIKE hell. If it doesn't work any more, I think we can disregard the poetry ... but not the theological concept.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerBut I think Christianity surrounds that schizo with an actual, physical (whatever that means in the afterlife) place that does nothing but affirm his in-brain perception.
Well, there are many different kinds of Christianity, but Catholicism specifically seems to rather agree with Wavy than with you on this point.
Here is Pope John Paul II expressed it:
"Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."
Eastern Orthodox tradition is very different on that point. In that view, both Heaven and Hell are in God's presence, as there cannot be such a place where there is no God.
John S. Romanides says:
"God himself is both heaven and hell, reward and punishment. All men have been created to see God unceasingly in His uncreated glory. Whether God will be for each man heaven or hell, reward or punishment, depends on man's response to God's love and on man's transformation from the state of selfish and self-centered love, to Godlike love which does not seek its own ends."
I find this an extremely long and boring equivalent to the definition that old rabbi told me half-jokingly years ago (I mentioned it in one of the earlier posts).
Quote: zippyboyOh c'mon, people. No one has any inkling of what hell is like, or whether there is a hell, or a heaven.
I know for a fact, I've seen it with my own eyes on TV.
Hell is ruled by Satan and Saddam Hussein, and is a pretty gay place compared to Heaven, which consists almost entirely of Mormons.
Quote: weaselman
Here is Pope John Paul II expressed it:
"Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."
Eastern Orthodox tradition is very different on that point. In that view, both Heaven and Hell are in God's presence, as there cannot be such a place where there is no God.
John S. Romanides says:
"God himself is both heaven and hell, reward and punishment. All men have been created to see God unceasingly in His uncreated glory. Whether God will be for each man heaven or hell, reward or punishment, depends on man's response to God's love and on man's transformation from the state of selfish and self-centered love, to Godlike love which does not seek its own ends."
This is what happens when you let someone else do your thinking for you.
Why not take a wild flying guess for yourself?
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerSo the question becomes, do you (not Wavy-you, but generic-you) have so much confidence in your own way that you think you are more learned, more intelligent, wiser, etc., than generation upon generation of humans before you, when the people who depend on you the most and you love the most - their eternities - are on the line, that you won't use a map?
Yes. Not in the sense that I believe I am smarter or otherwise superior to any and every one who has ever come before me, but I'm not going to follow a 'map' that I both think and feel is incorrect just because I am told to. I also don't use an atlas or GPS on road trips to NC or Fla either; at least those are based on provable fact. I dunno, maybe it's a patternized character flaw. =P
I think religion has value, but not in the way many would have you believe. It's funny, but in all the study and contemplation I have done on religion, the wisest thing I ever heard came from stoner-film maker Kevin Smith in the movie 'Dogma'. Chris Rock's character, playing the 13th apostle Rufus (who was left out of the Bible because he was black, lol) said that people have messed up religion and God's word by 'taking a bunch of really good idea's and making a belief system out of it'. I couldn't have worded my feelings any better than that. I feel many of the teaching of Christ are well meant, and I practice many of them myself. But I do so not for fear of an all powerful being, nor for the promise of Nirvana after death. I just do it because it's the right thing to do. And doing so for myself just because I want to has more power than doing the same but out of fear or personal gain, IMO.
I have a question for those who have shown a great knowledge on the subject. I have committed a number of the listed sins. I've stole, I've covetted, I've disrespected my parents....I've lived in sin, I've fornicated....I've done unto others things I would not want done unto me. Also, while I wouldn't say I have hatred of God (as I dont believe he exists) I have, I suppose, worked against him, as I've tried to debunk a number of things the ultra-religious have said to me. Of these things, while I may have apologized or otherwise expressed regret to those I have hurt, I have never 'asked forgiveness' in the biblical sense, nor do I plan to. I also was never baptised. In the event I'm totally wrong and somehow human's have hit the nail on the head when it comes to Christianity, should I expect to spend eternity in Limbo or whatever passes for hell these days? Just curious.
Quote: FaceYes. Not in the sense that I believe I am smarter or otherwise superior to any and every one who has ever come before me, but I'm not going to follow a 'map' that I both think and feel is incorrect just because I am told to. I also don't use an atlas or GPS on road trips to NC or Fla either; at least those are based on provable fact. I dunno, maybe it's a patternized character flaw. =P
I didn't mean to convey an implication of anyone TELLING you what to do. Rather, I meant to convey that, you have a choice on whether or not to follow a map.
FWIW, I don't think God = Theology. I think the Religious Experience (whatever that is) is legitimate and personal. I think someone standing on a beach looking at a sunrise and says he "feels God" is telling the truth. But I also don't think that, just because something isn't provable in the way a GPS is provable = it doesn't exist or it doesn't hold great importance.
I hate it when people think of this issue in a scientific sense; it always comes across to me as a way to avoid the (very real) spiritual side of life, which is NOT scientific.
Quote: FaceI have a question for those who have shown a great knowledge on the subject. I have committed a number of the listed sins. I've stole, I've covetted, I've disrespected my parents....I've lived in sin, I've fornicated....I've done unto others things I would not want done unto me. Also, while I wouldn't say I have hatred of God (as I dont believe he exists) I have, I suppose, worked against him, as I've tried to debunk a number of things the ultra-religious have said to me. Of these things, while I may have apologized or otherwise expressed regret to those I have hurt, I have never 'asked forgiveness' in the biblical sense, nor do I plan to. I also was never baptised. In the event I'm totally wrong and somehow human's have hit the nail on the head when it comes to Christianity, should I expect to spend eternity in Limbo or whatever passes for hell these days? Just curious.
As best I understand Christian theology, the word that comes most strongly to mind as you describe yourself is this:
Normal.
I think Christian theology says we're all like that, more or less.
I dig your concept of 'feeling God' while on the beach watching the sunset. I often have those moments while out in the middle of nowhere fishing and beholding the beauty of nature. I just don't equate the majesty of the scenery, or the feeling it creates, as a product of God. Some do, and that's 100% fine with me. He can speak of the highly unlikely chance it was all 'created' and how beautiful God is, and I will respond with my opinion of an equally unlikely chance that it all happened randomly and how beautiful nature is. Then we'll high five and resume spinnin' for steelhead.
And I don't use the 'proof' excuse much, because I do understand that my view's are also unprovable. My views simply jive with what I feel is true, and what makes me feel 'good'. I assume the same can be said for those that believe. If we could simply stop there I think the world would be a much better place, but too many people, athiest and theist alike, take it too far IMO.
A sincere thank you goes to you, ICS, because you are the first one to ever call me 'Normal' lol. But my question was specifically asking what I have condemned myself to based on the teachings of the Bible. Wavy and others seemed to have a grasp on the interpretation and I was just curious. Based on my life's worth of actions with no chance of asking forgiveness I'd assume Hell, but I didn't know if my lack of baptism trumps that, since 'if I didn't know, it's not my fault'.
Quote: FaceSorry ICS, I didn't mean to imply that YOU were implying, I was just giving my opinion on the subject.
I dig your concept of 'feeling God' while on the beach watching the sunset. I often have those moments while out in the middle of nowhere fishing and beholding the beauty of nature. I just don't equate the majesty of the scenery, or the feeling it creates, as a product of God. Some do, and that's 100% fine with me. He can speak of the highly unlikely chance it was all 'created' and how beautiful God is, and I will respond with my opinion of an equally unlikely chance that it all happened randomly and how beautiful nature is. Then we'll high five and resume spinnin' for steelhead.
And I don't use the 'proof' excuse much, because I do understand that my view's are also unprovable. My views simply jive with what I feel is true, and what makes me feel 'good'. I assume the same can be said for those that believe. If we could simply stop there I think the world would be a much better place, but too many people, athiest and theist alike, take it too far IMO.
A sincere thank you goes to you, ICS, because you are the first one to ever call me 'Normal' lol. But my question was specifically asking what I have condemned myself to based on the teachings of the Bible. Wavy and others seemed to have a grasp on the interpretation and I was just curious. Based on my life's worth of actions with no chance of asking forgiveness I'd assume Hell, but I didn't know if my lack of baptism trumps that, since 'if I didn't know, it's not my fault'.
Thanks for the kind words. Right back at ya. And, if it makes any difference, I would like to express my appreciation to this forum because it has fostered an environment of being able to talk freely without becoming argumentative. With only a few exceptions, the members of this forum are able to discuss religion , politics, and gambling systems - all historically controversial subjects - with civility and honest, respectful disagreement. That's hard enough to find in person, much less at a stupid internet forum.
Your last paragraph is, I think, nakedly honest. I think it deals with subjects that should probably be shared with the people closest to you and trustworthy practitioners of a religion you think works for you. As for me, while I appreciate the question, I am no counselor. I'm more of an explorer and engineer, and I don't feel ... well, worthy ... to answer such questions in such a personal context.
What I think I can say is that, however shitty you think you've been, we've all been shitty, too. I think Christian theology says that. "Shitty" has all kinds of manifestations, and I don't have the courage you have to say how shitty I've been here. But suffice it to say, from who I am and what I observe ... we've all been shitty. In other words, you're normal.
I would also add that, my understanding of Christianity is that salvation is based on what you believe about Jesus, not on what you have or haven't done. I think the Christians believe that, if Adolf Hitler truly confessed Jesus on his deathbed, he would be entered into heaven. But I also think they believe in reprobation - meaning, sometimes someone is so lost that they can't possibly be saved, so it would be impossible for Hitler to confess Jesus. But they also believe that nothing is impossible with God. And this goes back to the "sovereignty of God" and "predestination vs. free will" questions that don't make any sense to me.
Quote: weaselmanI could tell :)
The usual answer to this is "Crusades". But you did mention "this country" ... So, "witch trials"
Conservatism has evolved and changed over the centuries. Its much more open minded now.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerWhen you die, the "hay is in the barn." There's no more opportunity to do good, do evil, or to believe in Jesus's work.
I've lost both parents, too. I don't WORRY about them, but I also don't have any assurance as to their eternal fate.
Thats exactly what they say, 'Its in god's hands now' and they can wash they're hands of it. Its a cop-out.
How come nobody ever wrings their hands and worries about where they were before they were born? You were obviously 'somewhere', you didn't POOF out of nothing. Its only logical that when your body can no longer support your spirit, it returns to where it came from. Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is usually the correct one.
Quote: Face
I think religion has value, but not in the way many would have you believe.
Mark Twain said religion has a purpose, it gives people something to do and something to fiddle around with while they're here. He was quite religious himself till his favorite daughter died. He then started saying things like 'the biggest joke on mankind is that he believes god sits up nights worrying about him'.
Quote: EvenBobMark Twain said religion has a purpose, it gives people something to do and something to fiddle around with while they're here. He was quite religious himself till his favorite daughter died. He then started saying things like 'the biggest joke on mankind is that he believes god sits up nights worrying about him'.
I like Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn as much as the next guy, but ...
... if that is true, it sounds like he was a bitter old man who pouted for an entire lifetime because something didn't go his way.
Granted, losing a child is unfathomable. But a reaction like that tells me he worshiped his daughter before he worshiped his god, and that he was never really interested in god outside of how god served him. He may as well have thought god was Santa Claus.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer
... if that is true, it sounds like he was a bitter old man who pouted for an entire lifetime because something didn't go his way.
.
Not a lifetime. She died at 24, 15 years before Twain died. He was devastated and took it out on god. He was extremely well known and did speaking engagements. Most of his best and wittiest comments about the falseness of religion came from his public speaking. He was over 60 when she died, and he could find no point in it.
There's a line in a movie called 'Constantine' that Twain would agree with. The movie is about the battle between heaven and hell on earth. At one point one of the characters says: "I guess God has a plan for all of us." To which Constantine replies: "God's a kid with an ant farm, lady. He's not planning anything." Mark Twain would agree with that whole heartedly.
Quote: EvenBobShe died at 24, 15 years before Twain died. He was devastated and took it out on god. He was over 60 when she died, and he could find no point in it.
Perhaps the point is that those who believe that what God does should have a point that they will comprehend... are missing the point. Tsunamis, earthquakes, AIDS, cancer, car accidents, wife beatings, war... what's the point. 'Fraid I don't know but why should I expect to know and understand everything? I don't know a lot of things and making an effort to understand the things that are beyond my understanding can be interesting and frustrating at the same time.
My father died of cancer and his last 6 months were hard to watch but hey, we're all going to die, who says I should have any say in who dies and how and in what order? For someone who doesn't believe there is a God to ask someone who does believe there is a God, "Ok, explain that? Why would a loving God do THAT to His creation?" Good question. When someone finds the answer I'm all ears but whether or not I ever know the answers has no bearing on my belief in God.
I suppose Twain would have been a happier man if his daughter had died long after he was gone but that didn't happen. Twain sulked and blamed God. If we all followed that rationale then we'd all curse God (those who believe in God anyway) every day of our lives for all of the lousy things that happen to us. I prefer to thank God for giving me the life He has and doing the best to do my best. Stuff happens... oh well.
Quote: P90What amazes me is how Catholics will then say Scientology makes no sense, call it a quasi-religion, and otherwise insist it's somehow inherently inferior to Catholicism.
That might be because many of the ones who join Scientology are just plain weird. Plus how many times have Catholics knocked on your door trying to get you to join a religion and contribute money to their cause?
Quote: JL2That might be because many of the ones who join Scientology are just plain weird.
Ever read the history of the Catholic church? Ever really think about what they believe? Virgin birth, son of god, walked on water, did magic tricks, raised the dead, comes back to life after death? And is now the invisible friend to billions? That isn't weird?
"No," God says. "Not Earth. Last time I hooked up with this nice Jewish girl, and those people are still talking about it."
Quote: teeth1
This is what happens when you let someone else do your thinking for you.
It also happens when you read a book or watch a movie ...
Quote:Why not take a wild flying guess for yourself?
Because the question being discussed was the concept of hell in Christianity, not my wild flying gusses.
Quote: Face
I have a question for those who have shown a great knowledge on the subject. I have committed a number of the listed sins. I've stole, I've covetted, I've disrespected my parents....I've lived in sin, I've fornicated....I've done unto others things I would not want done unto me. Also, while I wouldn't say I have hatred of God (as I dont believe he exists) I have, I suppose, worked against him, as I've tried to debunk a number of things the ultra-religious have said to me. Of these things, while I may have apologized or otherwise expressed regret to those I have hurt, I have never 'asked forgiveness' in the biblical sense, nor do I plan to. I also was never baptised. In the event I'm totally wrong and somehow human's have hit the nail on the head when it comes to Christianity, should I expect to spend eternity in Limbo or whatever passes for hell these days? Just curious.
Just the last sentence was enough. If you are not baptized, nothing else you do matters. It is Hell for you all the way, if we are talking about the views of official Christian doctrine (that does not include things like Limbo). Wavy might argue, you might still be redeemed after the Judgment Day, and ascend to Heaven, but I maintain, that it goes against the official Vatican's view on the subject (although, it does look like the Biblical quotes Wavy referenced could be interpreted this way, but that is not unusual).
The good news is it is never late. You still have time to get baptized, and absolved of your sin. Rationally, you should wait as long as possible, and do it on your death bed - that way, you will not have time to do more sins before you die.
Quote: weaselmanIt also happens when you read a book or watch a movie ...
Because the question being discussed was the concept of hell in Christianity, not my wild flying gusses.
Sorry, I wasn't referring to you.
It was simply a general reference to the wide variety of interpretations, most of them contradictory, that are out there in relation to our hypothetical afterlife.
I should have been clearer.
