Ask a Catholic
Reminds me that a long time ago the Frontier served beer to players in legitimate mugs. I really liked them and confess I walked out with one. However, the next day I felt so badly that I went to the casino to offer to pay for it. I still wanted to keep the glass, and I still have it. So I went to the guard station and asked whom I should pay. The guard said "just forget about it." But I insisted that I pay somebody. The guard just laughed and said something like "do what you gotta do." So I asked if I could pay him and he said "go ahead." So I gave him some money, I don't remember how much, and he accepted it.
In retrospect, I'm sure he just pocketed it, and the Frontier was out the money it cost them to buy that glass. I would send them a check if they were still around. Okay, Catholics, how much time in purgatory do I have to serve for that?
Quote: WizardOkay, Catholics, how much time in purgatory do I have to serve for that?
I'm guessing that'll set you back about 14 seconds worth of extra purgatory time. Small price to pay for a nice mug.
Quote: WizardOkay, Catholics, how much time in purgatory do I have to serve for that?
None. Don't forget the Celestial Get Out Of Jail Free Card of the Catholic Church. The act of penance and contrition.
BTW if stuck in the desert w/o a priest you can confess directly to God.
Quote: Wavy70None. Don't forget the Celestial Get Out Of Jail Free Card of the Catholic Church. The act of penance and contrition.
BTW if stuck in the desert w/o a priest you can confess directly to God.
What evidence do you have that God hears you under such conditions? He could be shooting craps for all you know (Einstein notwithstanding).
Quote: WizardI voted to give back the money and the match play. It will be money well spent for the karma points.
I heard you have to donate to the crusades for that, otherwise it doesn't count.
Quote: mkl654321What evidence do you have that God hears you under such conditions?
He told me so.
Quote: WizardI thought that if you don't make it to confession before you die, then you have to work off the time in purgatory (not to be confused with hell) for your sins since your last confession. According to "Growing Up Catholic" you have to serve 257,890 years for stealing a candy bar. Since I've never been to confession I don't have a the get out of jail card at all.
Deathbed repentance. The Church also does absolution post death. Lot's of rules but if you have a good lawyer you can still get in thru the gates.
Quote: mkl654321Ah, but what evidence do you have that it was Him talking? Maybe it was just the beer.
I know the voice. We have hung out on many occasions. Most were rather pleasant.
Quote: WizardI thought that if you don't make it to confession before you die, then you have to work off the time in purgatory (not to be confused with hell) for your sins since your last confession. According to "Growing Up Catholic" you have to serve 257,890 years for stealing a candy bar. Since I've never been to confession I don't have a the get out of jail card at all.
The doctrine is that MORTAL sins, unconfessed, will get you the one-way ticket to hell if you die. The minor stuff, like splitting tens, does get you X years in North Las Vegas, or Purgatory, whichever is less attractive to you. The candy bar theft is a violation of the Eighth Commandment and therefore a mortal sin--Hell has a special circle for candy bar thieves. "Growing Up Catholic" understated the punishment.
I think penance in Vegas should be "play nickel video poker until you get a royal, without stopping to eat, drink, sleep, or go to the bathroom."
Quote: Wavy70Deathbed repentance. The Church also does absolution post death. Lot's of rules but if you have a good lawyer you can still get in thru the gates.
I would imagine that a substantial posthumous donation to the Church helps to grease the wheels. You can't take it with you, and if you're going to Hell it would all catch fire anyway. Plus, there's nothing worth buying in Hell, and the only restaurants are Denny's. Might as well pony up.
Quote: mkl654321The doctrine is that MORTAL sins, unconfessed, will get you the one-way ticket to hell if you die. The minor stuff, like splitting tens, does get you X years in North Las Vegas, or Purgatory, whichever is less attractive to you.
It's really pretty simple. Just fill out this simple form.
1. Are you a Mormon?
2. Have you ever strayed from Mormon principles?
3. Are you of Eurasian origin?
If you have answered "No" to one or more of above questions, you are going to Hell. Congratulations!
Quote: mkl654321I would imagine that a substantial posthumous donation to the Church helps to grease the wheels. You can't take it with you, and if you're going to Hell it would all catch fire anyway. Plus, there's nothing worth buying in Hell, and the only restaurants are Denny's. Might as well pony up.
Ahh the myth of fire is hell.
But Deathbed repentance works even if alone. Lot's of loopholes.
Quote: Wavy70But Deathbed repentance works even if alone. Lot's of loopholes.
Lots of loopholes, but just 144,000 spots in Heaven. Out of seven billion, your odds are 1 to 48,610 - about the same as hitting a royal in a single hand!
Quote: P90It's right there in the Revelation, so no, no way around it. Everyone else goes to Hell. Resistance is futile.
Yes but lest we forget that The Catholic Church has revised the dogma of who attains heaven. And being that Jesus said to Peter that he is the foundation of his church and what he/the church does on earth so shall be in heaven the rules have changed.
My we have gone from craps haven't we. All due to the Wiz's compulsive stealing.
Quote: zippyboyGee, ya think? Of course he pocketed it! And the loss of a single mug is what brought down the Frontier. Thanks a lot.
This all happened when I was 21 or 22, and trusted anybody in a uniform.
Yeah, sorry about the demise of the Frontier. It is all my fault. There is no way to properly atone for my sin now.
Quote: WizardThere is no way to properly atone for my sin now.
If you bring Steve Wynn's heart to the top of Mt Charleston... I'm kidding. If you can find Steve Wynn's heart you can get into heaven.
Cherry Mug BTW
Quote: odiousgambit*yep, the WoO's transgression, knowingly doing it, is definitely worse. Sorry. Bribing the security guy made it worse. You better hope that Purgatory is the worst that comes of this [g].
Would this be the difference between a venial and a mortal sin? In other words mortal sins, the worse kind, are premeditated, and venial sins are accidental? Can you elaborate on what you have to do be absolved of each kind, and the punishment if you don't?
Quote: Wizard
Would this be the difference between a venial and a mortal sin? In other words mortal sins, the worse kind, are premeditated, and venial sins are accidental? Can you elaborate on what you have to do be absolved of each kind, and the punishment if you don't?
I knew I would get busted down to the Thursday Night Vespers. (If you have seen Nunsense you would be chuckling now)
For a sin to be considered Mortal it must meet all three of the following criteria.
1 is it a "Grave Matter"? Those covered by the 10 Commandments. Even these have strata. Murder is worse than theft. Assault against ones parents is worse than against a stranger. However these sins break our covenant with God.
2 Is the sin committed with full knowledge that it is a sin.
3 Is the sin committed voluntarily.
A Venial sin is a minor offence that does not break our covenant with God however weakens our faith and can drive a wedge between us and God. It does not have to be accidental. Bearing false witness (lying) can be a mortal sin such as lying to put an innocent person in jail or a venial sin such as the lies we tell nosey neighbors and coworkers on matters that don't involve them. Stealing trivial items is a venial sin, such as penny candy and i would even lump glassware.
As to absolution. Both would need to be confessed to a Priest if able before death. However a Mortal sin un-confessed would be punishable by hell as a un-confessed Venial sin would not exclude you from attaining heaven. Keep in mind Hell is not eternal. Most who are in hell will eventually attain heaven after the second coming.
The only "Eternal Sin" is Blasphemy against The Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-29) that sin there is no redemption from. Even this has strata. To simply mock or deny the Holy Spirit is not a blasphemy of Eternal Sin status. For it to be an Eternal Sin the blasphemer would have to entirely in his heart and soul have hatred towards the Holy Spirit and actively work against it.
So rest assured this Mug will not tip the scales.
By last count I have commited 18 mortal sins. Mostly the easy ones.
Quote: WizardThanks Wavy, good answer. I enjoyed reading it and learned a thing or two. At the risk of going further off topic, what is the difference between limbo, purgatory, and hell?
I spent most of my youth when not following the Dead studying religion. Still haven't figured how to make any money out of it.
But...
Limbo is a place that souls who have not earned a spot in Hell but have not earned a space in heaven will go until the Second Coming in which all but those with Eternal Sin will ascend to Heaven.
In this group would be people who have personal sins but have not sinned against God.
Also in this group would be unbaptized children. This is actually one of the most debated parts of the Church. All the way back to the birth of the Church to John Paul II many times this has been addressed. Going to the Cemetery Blog, in many older Catholic Cemeteries there will be a section for "The Innocents" this would be children who died in birth. Before Vatican II the unbaptised babies could not be buried in hallowed ground so they were buried on the fringe of the cemetery.
Purgatory is where souls who are in Gods grace but not pure spend time until they have become purified. These would be those who have committed Venial sins. (Mug absconders)
Hell is not really a place. Hell is literally the absence of Gods love. The Medieval poets and artists made fun depictions of fire and brimstone but Hell is to live without Gods love. On the surface it doesn't sound too bad, on the surface at least. Those who go to Hell are the ones who commit mortal sins. But in the end all those who have not committed The Eternal Sin will ascend into heaven eventually.
My religion I would define as "Undecided" so I figure to Hedge my bet I try to learn about them all. Jesus, Buddha, Allah, Siva, J.R "Bob" Dobbs whomever I meet I got a running chance.
Quote: Wavy70I spent most of my youth when not following the Dead studying religion. Still haven't figured how to make any money out of it.
Not very Christian of you, is it? Why not ask Benny Hinn? He has a pretty good handle on that.
Quote: Wavy70
Limbo is a place that souls who have not earned a spot in Hell but have not earned a space in heaven will go until the Second Coming in which all but those with Eternal Sin will ascend to Heaven...... in this group would be unbaptized children. .... Before Vatican II the unbaptised babies could not be buried in hallowed ground so they were buried on the fringe of the cemetery.
Oh, the poor children! Through no fault of their own they are condemned. I imagine way back when those in control of the world were thinking up these religions, infant (or youth) mortality was high. Will the parents be punished for not baptizing the kids fast enough? I thought baptism only worked if the participant was old enough to decide for himself. Putting a newborn through the trauma of baptism seems, well, wasteful.
Quote: Wavy70Purgatory is where souls who are in Gods grace but not pure spend time until they have become purified. These would be those who have committed Venial sins. (Mug absconders)
That's most of us I guess?
Quote: Wavy70Hell is not really a place. Hell is literally the absence of Gods love.
Aahhhhh! I am in hell! Hell, sir!
Quote: Wavy70My religion I would define as "Undecided" so I figure to Hedge my bet I try to learn about them all. Jesus, Buddha, Allah, Siva, J.R "Bob" Dobbs whomever I meet I got a running chance.
Yep, and then pick the one that gives you the most comfort on Earth, let's you get away with the most "sin" and still go to "heaven", let's you sow your seed in the most maidens, take part in the most religious-based group mind-altering drug partakings and such. Is there a god that worships cash? Or hot babes? That'd be the one for me. Keep us posted, Wavy.
My favorite is Islam, promising 70 virgins in the afterlife. Great for the men, but do the Muslim ladies really look forward to 70 fifteen year old boys when they die? Obviously a man thought up that dorky religion. And to kill all those who don't agree with us? Wait, I guess that's Christianity also, ain't it?
Quote: zippyboyNot very Christian of you, is it? Why not ask Benny Hinn? He has a pretty good handle on that.
Oh, the poor children! Through no fault of their own they are condemned. I imagine way back when those in control of the world were thinking up these religions, infant (or youth) mortality was high. Will the parents be punished for not baptizing the kids fast enough? I thought baptism only worked if the participant was old enough to decide for himself. Putting a newborn through the trauma of baptism seems, well, wasteful.
That's most of us I guess?
Aahhhhh! I am in hell! Hell, sir!
Yep, and then pick the one that gives you the most comfort on Earth, let's you get away with the most "sin" and still go to "heaven", let's you sow your seed in the most maidens, take part in the most religious-based group mind-altering drug partakings and such. Is there a god that worships cash? Or hot babes? That'd be the one for me. Keep us posted, Wavy.
My favorite is Islam, promising 70 virgins in the afterlife. Great for the men, but do the Muslim ladies really look forward to 70 fifteen year old boys when they die? Obviously a man thought up that dorky religion. And to kill all those who don't agree with us? Wait, I guess that's Christianity also, ain't it?
Damn Zippy. You will be spending all day getting the knots out of your panties. Seems you have some unresolved problems with your upbringing. Perhaps you can reread what I was posting to Wiz asked the Difference between a few categories of souls in the Catholic Church. I answered him. This is not my ideas. It is the churches. I never said it is what I think. You seem to be significantly ignorant to any idea of religion or belief.
Truthfully what was the point to your post? Can you find in the Koran what you are quoting? Once again what was the point of your post?
Zippy be happy no where in any religious text I have read does it say the fool will not get into heaven. Winning!
Edit: You seem to have ideas about me and I have to assume you are borderline idiot. Since you can't tell between discussion and witnessing. Boarderline due to near correct grammar.
Quote: zippyboyAahhhhh! I am in hell! Hell, sir!
Sounds like you are, but by choice. Shame how others beliefs seem to frighten you. That does sound like Hell.
Quote: Wavy70
Damn Zippy. You will be spending all day getting the knots out of your panties.
They come out of the laundry knotted, just the way I like 'em.
Quote: Wavy70This is not my ideas. It is the churches. I never said it is what I think. You seem to be significantly ignorant to any idea of religion or belief.
Truthfully what was the point to your post?
I know you were teaching, not necessarily believing those teachings yourself. My point is that all religions are equally ridiculous. There are so many, each thinking that they are the only real religion, I figure if they can't come to together and agree on things, they all lose credibility. It's amazing to me that in 2011, people still believe in these fantasy stories of the Bible. If an alien came to Earth and picked up a Bible and a copy of Aesop's Fable's and was told one was supposedly true, which would he pick? The talking snake or the talking wolf? I can almost excuse the ignorant masses of Third World countries who never travel farther than 10 miles from the spot of their birth for listening to those of their tribes in authority (and isn't God's spokesman on Earth, the preacher, the highest authority, according to that same spokesman?), but educated leaders in civilized countries like ours seem to believe it too. GW Bush was asked once at the start of his first presidency if he listened to the advice of his father, and he replied, "I listen to another Father" with his eyes looking skyward. What a dope. That scares the hell out of me that our leader runs our policy by interpreting a burning bush, or tea leaves, or whatever. Can't people think for themselves? Why do people blindly listen to religions as, well, the Gospel? Noah's Ark for example....40 days and nights of rain covered the world? Really? It's physically impossible for it to rain everywhere on the planet at once. And if it did, it would take centuries to cover it to Mt. Everest. Where did all the water come from? There's not that much watch on Earth! Duh! And where did it all go since then? And Noah puts two of every animal on a single boat? Predator and prey together? Why did he include mosquitoes? These are basic questions no one would ask back in 1500 for fear of being a heretic and excommunicated (which probably would've been best for the brainiacs of the era).
Quote: Wavy70Zippy be happy no where in any religious text I have read does it say the fool will not get into heaven. Winning!
Well, thank god I have a chance then!
Quote: Wavy70Edit: You seem to have ideas about me and I have to assume you are borderline idiot. Since you can't tell between discussion and witnessing. Boarderline due to near correct grammar.
You misspelled borderline.
And no, I have no ideas about you. I'm drunken typing at 3am in Sin City, where my kind belongs.
Quote: Wavy70Sounds like you are, but by choice. Shame how others beliefs seem to frighten you. That does sound like Hell.
Actually, I was quoting Mel Gibson in The Bounty
Around 14:12
I am in Hell, sir!
Quote: Wavy70... unbaptized children. This is actually one of the most debated parts of the Church.
The Mormons quite emphatically declare that they believe unbaptized children go straight to heaven if they die. For me anyway, it shows that there are aspects of each religion that appeal, I'm sure this would even apply to Islam which I otherwise disdain at the moment.
Quote: Wavy70Keep in mind Hell is not eternal. Most who are in hell will eventually attain heaven after the second coming.
AFAIK, this is a universalist concept, that has been rejected by the official Catholic church.
Catechism of Saint Pius X says (emphasis is mine): "Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity
The Last Judgment is traditionally viewed (in Catholicism) as applicable to only those in purgatory, and deciding their final destination. The rest will not be judged at all actually, but will be there to hold the glory of God. Those, condemned to hell by the Particular Judgment will remain in hell. The only change is that they will now be capable of physical suffering (because they will be reunited with their bodies).
In Orthodox Church doctrine, there is no purgatory, so those, who a catholic would expect to go there, end up in hell after the Particular Judgment, but still have a chance to ascend to heaven after the Final Judgment Day.
The unbaptized, IIRC, are not to be judged at all in either tradition, and are automatically ranked with the wicked. But I could be wrong on the details of this one (there could be an exception for children for example, although I kinda doubt that).
Quote:So rest assured this Mug will not tip the scales.
Theft is usually not considered a mortal sin. Things like trading souls (presumption, a form of blasphemy), on the other hand, are weighed way heavier than murder. Another very serious sin (also, worth than murder), that people often overlook, is masturbation, and use of condoms.
The next question is two related questions. If there is no such thing has hell, then what happens to those who do blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Would blaspheming god (the father) or Jesus count, since are not all three the same god?
Quote: WizardThanks Wavy for another good answer. I think those who are being critical should keep in mind that he is being asked questions about Catholicism.
The next question is two related questions. If there is no such thing has hell, then what happens to those who do blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Would blaspheming god (the father) or Jesus count, since are not all three the same god?
I wasn't aware they got rid of hell. Times have changed. When I was a kid you had four places you could go:
Heaven
Purgatory: sort of a "halfway house" until you got allowed to heaven. Requirements for release always varried
Limbo: Strictly for the unbaptized who died. Also sometimes said for people who were not really bad but didn't quite make the cut
Hell
Limbo was being phased out as I was in school and the church oficially got rid of the concept about 10 years ago. If there is no hell now, then what is supposed to make people behave?
"Hell is really bad, but after awhile wouldn't you, like, get used to it?"--Bart Simpson
Quote: P90I wonder what kind of prices they got for the land in this economy. On the other hand, Limbo's pretty large, so still got to be a pretty penny.
But I think in Limbo they only have 6:5 BJ and all NFL bets are -115.
I'm not a scholar on this subject, but I read something that just might be relevant to your making that comment -- from the sermon on the mount: "... and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire." (RSV Matthew 5:22). Of course, I know almost nothing about the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, so you might be safe just by not using the exact quote from that translation.Quote: Wavy70... Zippy be happy no where in any religious text I have read does it say the fool will not get into heaven. ...
Quote: WizardThanks Wavy, good answer. I enjoyed reading it and learned a thing or two. At the risk of going further off topic, what is the difference between limbo, purgatory, and hell?
In the Divine Comedy, Dante depicts Limbo as the first circle of Hell, located beyond the river Acheron but before the judgment seat of Minos. The virtuous pagans of classical history and mythology inhabit a brightly lit and beautiful—but somber—castle which is seemingly a medieval version of Elysium. They include Hector, Julius Caesar, and Virgil.
Purgatory in Catholicism
The Catholic Church gives the name Purgatory to the final purification of all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. Though purgatory is often pictured as a place rather than a process of purification, the idea of purgatory as a place is not part of the Church's doctrine.
Quote: pacomartinIn the Divine Comedy, Dante depicts Limbo as the first circle of Hell, located beyond the river Acheron but before the judgment seat of Minos.
I haven't read Dante. I hear that despite the title the book's not funny (ha ha). But I've read Niven and Pournelle's novels set in Dante's Inferno, aptly called "Inferno" and "Escape From Hell." They claimed to have made use of Dante's geography, but have updated both the setting and punishments to our era (there's a gap of decades between the novels, though, and it shows).
They're a very interesting read, although I felt the protagonist caves in to God's wishes, even though he keeps questioning God's authority throughout the sequel.
Quote: NareedI haven't read Dante. I hear that despite the title the book's not funny (ha ha).
It's real short, quite cool, and it's a classic. You really should.
Quote: NareedThere is one thing I've wanted to ask a Catholic ever since I visited the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (I think that's the name) in Jerusalem many years ago. But the question is so rude I've never done it.
I'll bite. What have you wanted to ask?
Quote: odiousgambitI'll bite. What have you wanted to ask?
It's too rude to ask here.
But I'll PM you if you like.
For all I knew she could have somehow gotten separated from her caretaker, wandering alone and frightened in a foreign city for god knows how long. But I had already passed her and she was turning her attention to someone else, so alas I just kept walking; I felt a pretty big lump in my throat for the rest of the day, and a small lump the rest of the week.
A few days later I went through that route and the girl was there again, in a brand new outfit, asking for money so she could afford a 'train ride home'. I breathed a huge sigh of relief. At that point I felt completely relieved of guilt, even though it didn't change the fact that I left her out to die the first time around. I don't know how that rates on the asshole meter, and whether the needle fluctuated during the whole ordeal. Take from it what you will.
Quote: AZDuffmanI wasn't aware they got rid of hell. Times have changed.
There have been books written on the ever changing concept of hell. Its a fact that at one time its almost the only thing the Church talked about, scaring people with what happens in Hades. The Devil was hiding behind every bush, waiting to tempt you. These days, hell has almost disappeared from every church. You rarely hear it mentioned. It doesn't fill the collection plates anymore. Portraying Jesus as your secret friend is what brings in the big bucks today. The Christian church has always been about money since the earliest days. The Inquisition was all about going into a town, torturing to death a few rich men, and stealing their property for the Vatican. How do you think they got so wealthy?
Quote: EvenBobThere have been books written on the ever changing concept of hell. Its a fact that at one time its almost the only thing the Church talked about, scaring people with what happens in Hades. The Devil was hiding behind every bush, waiting to tempt you. These days, hell has almost disappeared from every church. You rarely hear it mentioned. It doesn't fill the collection plates anymore. Portraying Jesus as your secret friend is what brings in the big bucks today. The Christian church has always been about money since the earliest days. The Inquisition was all about going into a town, torturing to death a few rich men, and stealing their property for the Vatican. How do you think they got so wealthy?
As best I understand Christian theology (insofar as it aligns with Catholicism), "hell" is best described as a place where there is no reminder of God, the maker and sustainer of all good things. In that context, what this means is, there will be not even a reminder (outside of your memory) of anything good.
So, when people think things like, "hey, if fornicators go to hell, I can't wait to get there so I can fuck all I want to," they're fooling themselves. As sex is a good thing, there will not even be a reminder of it in hell, much less the act itself. And the pleasure and the natural high that go with sex ... none of it will be in hell, not even a reminder of it ... if the Christians are right.
Although I don't share your cynicism of the early church's motive, I think you're right when you say that hell has disappeared from every church [because] it doesn't fill the collection plate any more ... at least, if you mean that "talking about/preaching on hell has disappeared," and not that Hell Itself no longer exists in Christian theology. Everyone wants justice, but no one wants to be judged. Clearly, Hell Itself is still part of that theology, whether or not it's spoken of on Sundays.
If Hell is what they say and think it is, they're not doing anyone any favors by not talking about it.
And I've always hated the term "God-fearing". Why would I want to follow someone I have to be afraid of all the time? How about "God-loving" instead? Make make more people want to follow. But I guess the uneducated folk 100's of years ago were more easily motivated by fear. Like today, apparently.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer
If Hell is what they say and think it is, they're not doing anyone any favors by not talking about it.
The modern Christians say Hell is being cut off from god. They say we're connected to god now, and the connection is severed when we go to Hell. I think all of it is bunk. I see no evidence whatsoever that we live in a moral universe. Its all made up by man. We live in a universe made up of random events, and the strong survive, the weak do not. Because this is so puzzling, people think they see a 'creation', so they invent a creator. It scares the crap out of them that all of this might have been here forever, in one form or another. We think we see endings and beginnings, and what we're really seeing is transformations.
Quote: zippyboyOh c'mon, people. No one has any inkling of what hell is like, or whether there is a hell, or a heaven. It was all made-up stories centuries ago by those in charge to keep the ignorant masses in line. "Be good to your neighbor or an invisible man in the sky will put you in a lake of everlasting fire for all eternity." They invented ten commandments, the first four of which make God into a spiteful bully that has to be given full attention during your life, and 10% of your income to continue the quest to lure more sheep into the fold, hence the massive wealth of the Catholic Church.
And I've always hated the term "God-fearing". Why would I want to follow someone I have to be afraid of all the time? How about "God-loving" instead? Make make more people want to follow. But I guess the uneducated folk 100's of years ago were more easily motivated by fear. Like today, apparently.
There are all kinds of reasons to reject Christian theology, and that's okay. I bolded that one phrase because, as best I understand Christian theology, entrance into heaven or hell is not about what you do but what you believe about Jesus - specifically, whether you (not zippyboy-you, generic-you) believe his death somehow pays for what you did. The "what you did" part comes after the "what you believed" part for those admitted to heaven. For those admitted to hell, I don't think the "what you did" part ever enters into things.
I'm not trying to get you or anyone else to believe anything. I don't know what to believe myself. I'm just talking about what my understanding of Christian theology is.
I heard this joke many years ago from a rabbi. I think, it pretty much sums up the contemporary doctrine of heaven and hell of almost any serious denomination.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerI'm not trying to get you or anyone else to believe anything. I don't know what to believe myself.
I think it's interesting what makes otherwise rational people believe such wacky ideas without any proof, and offer chunks of their incomes to the cause. Why do people believe THIS, but not THAT? It can't be only upbringing, because people convert all the time for the sake of a new spouse. Does that mean you suddenly don't believe what you have for 20 years now? Or it's just less work and less expensive doing it the spouse's way? Or is it where you live in the world? Islam and Judaism live side by side in the mid-east (well, they clash a lot). I know 2000 years ago, there were many many regional religions fighting for supremacy and only a handful stood the test of time. For all of Christianity's loopy teachings, at least it's not having its own members kill themselves, like Jim Jones did, or Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate folks in '97. I think we all can agree L. Ron Hubbard, a failed sci-fi writer from the 50's, came up with a doozy of a cult in Scientology. 100 million years ago, and alien named Xenu came to Earth and dropped his own people, the Thetans, into our volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs? And followers have to pay huge wads of cash to learn more of this story? Okay, anyone who claims he knows specifics of what happened 100 million years ago, and THEN claims he even knows the guy's name?? lol How can he teach this with a straight face? How can anyone follow a religion like this? If they're just looking to belong to a community, why not just join an Internet forum? Works for me.
I think organized religion is the main cause of what's wrong in this world.
Quote: zippyboyI think it's interesting what makes otherwise rational people believe such wacky ideas without any proof, and offer chunks of their incomes to the cause. Why do people believe THIS, but not THAT?
Because they want to believe and can pick and choose.
I don't believe in any kind of god because I've seen no evidence of any. For the same reason I don't believe in an afterlife, but I would like it if there were one. I would like to believe there is one, too, but I know that wishing won't make it so.
Quote: zippyboyI think it's interesting what makes otherwise rational people believe such wacky ideas without any proof, and offer chunks of their incomes to the cause. Why do people believe THIS, but not THAT? It can't be only upbringing, because people convert all the time for the sake of a new spouse. Does that mean you suddenly don't believe what you have for 20 years now? Or it's just less work and less expensive doing it the spouse's way? Or is it where you live in the world? Islam and Judaism live side by side in the mid-east (well, they clash a lot). I know 2000 years ago, there were many many regional religions fighting for supremacy and only a handful stood the test of time. For all of Christianity's loopy teachings, at least it's not having its own members kill themselves, like Jim Jones did, or Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate folks in '97. I think we all can agree L. Ron Hubbard, a failed sci-fi writer from the 50's, came up with a doozy of a cult in Scientology. 100 million years ago, and alien named Xenu came to Earth and dropped his own people, the Thetans, into our volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs? And followers have to pay huge wads of cash to learn more of this story? Okay, anyone who claims he knows specifics of what happened 100 million years ago, and THEN claims he even knows the guy's name?? lol How can he teach this with a straight face? How can anyone follow a religion like this? If they're just looking to belong to a community, why not just join an Internet forum? Works for me.
I think organized religion is the main cause of what's wrong in this world.
You have a legitimate gripe with all of these examples. But how do these things relate to my understanding of Christian theology? Isn't corruption of good things an eons-old way of gaining personal advantage? Why would Christianity (true or not) be immune to that? Why is it Christianity's fault that a bunch of assholes corrupt it for their own gain? Isn't that a lot like calling Islam a fraud because 19 assholes flew planes into buildings?
Again, you and everyone else has a legitimate gripe with Marshall Applewhite and L. Ron Hubbard et al ... but I don't think Christianity should be blamed for the behavior and selfishness of some assholes.
