Are hybrids worth the extra cost?
Quote: JerryLogan
Now this is funny. Both are jealous of singer, yet wavy just couldn't help but once again point out where mkl was making it up on the go.
People, who agree about Singer, must automatically agree about everything else?
Wow, that makes so much sense!
If only it was true, what an amazing level of agreement would there be in the world!
Quote: weaselmanPeople, who agree about Singer, must automatically agree about everything else?
Wow, that makes so much sense!
If only it was true, what an amazing level of agreement would there be in the world!
Surf the various vp forums over the years. As soon as someone comes on and says something stupid about Singer, it draws out several others who then almost always agree on everything else. Their top traits? Envy, hate, conflict, and kool-aid-drinking liberalism.
That's why watching wavy stepping up to the plate to expose mkl brought such a tingle.
BTW I just saw this on electric cars. Now somebody tell me, who in their right mind would EVER want to be seen driving around town in a little piece of junk like that? I can guarantee that my wife would find another man within days if I brought her home one of these sissymobiles.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/14/autos/electric_car_battery_recycling/index.htm?section=money_mostpopular
Well, that's my input.
worth little.
Quote: JerryLoganAs soon as someone comes on and says something stupid about Singer, it draws out several others who then almost always agree on everything else.
Well ... the key word is "stupid". People who say stupid things tend to agree with each other more often than not, because stupidity is the opposite of critical thinking. It is nice to see that on this board, you seem so far to be alone in that camp (not counting Singer himself, who, I think is your own alter ego anyway).
When hybrids first were coming off the assembly lines, Popular Mechanics ran a blurb comparing the Toyota Prius to a diessel VW of similar size. The deissel got more MPG.
Oh, and diessel subs are hybrids, too, all the way back to their inception. They run the diessel on the surface, then use batteries when submerged. They can run the diessel submerged, using a snorkle to draw air, but it's done to charge the batteries.
Quote: NareedRandom factoid:
When hybrids first were coming off the assembly lines, Popular Mechanics ran a blurb comparing the Toyota Prius to a diessel VW of similar size. The deissel got more MPG.
Yes, diesel engines get more MPG then hybrids, and their emissions are also cleaner than those from internal combustion engines.
There seems to be some kind of a stigma associated with diesels that makes them unpopular in the "green nut" crowd. For some reason, you can't even buy a (new) diesel car in some states by law.
Quote: weaselmanWell ... the key word is "stupid". People who say stupid things tend to agree with each other more often than not, because stupidity is the opposite of critical thinking. It is nice to see that on this board, you seem so far to be alone in that camp (not counting Singer himself, who, I think is your own alter ego anyway).
The only things I agree with with singer are his ideas and views on vp, and the respectable way in which he leads his family life....the latter being quite different from those interested in gambling from my experience with the masses. He's controversial to say the least, but he backs it all up and doesn't back down to people who prefer to operate on incomplete facts and theoretical situations, while he's attacking the issues with reality. And even though that irritates the critics no end, to the rest of us (aka the majority of players) he brings an enormous amount of credible sense to the table. I am just beginning to understand how that irks guys like you.
Quote: NareedI wouldn't buy a diessel car because there are far too few gas stations that dispatch diessel where I live. The nearest one involves paying a small highway toll, in fact.
Heh. And where I live, there are plenty of gas stations that sell diesel ... but sales of diesel cars are banned :)
Quote: WizardThis has been touched on before but has anybody ever done a study comparing the total waste and damage to the environment of electric vs. fossil fuel cars? I'm sure electric car drivers award themselves lots of green points for not consuming any gas. However, that electricity has to come from somewhere. Most of it probably came from burning coal -- and lots of it.
Here is a link to an article on CNET that summarizes a study in Germany that found the benefits of putting 1M electric vehicles on the road would only reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 1% due to the additional load on the electric grid at peak times requiring air polluting coal powered electic plants to come online. There were some caveats:
-- The electric grid in Germany is powered by a higher percentage of coal powered plants than the U.S.
-- The recharging of all these vehicles could be staggered to minimize the peak load on the grid and avoid having to fire up the coal powered plants,
-- Nuclear power plants are not a future option for Germany, but other, cleaner than coal options (e.g. hydroelectric, natural gas, wind, solar) will work their way into the system.
As for the batteries, the conventional thinking is that most of these massive chunks of metal and chemicals will be recycled. It not like you can toss it in your waste bin. It has to be changed out an authorized garage, and chances are they will have some sort of recycling program.
So, unless there is unexpected growth in the sale and use of vehicles that need to be plugged in, the existing power grid in the U.S. can easily accomodate the President's goal of 1M electric vehicles in the U.S. by 2015 with a net savings to the environment.
Note that there is a big difference between electric (battery power only) and hybrid (battery power with on-board gasoline engine) cars. Most hybrid cars do not require power off the electric grid, so the hit to the environment from dirty power plants is not an issue with them.
Quote: weaselmanPeople, who agree about Singer, must automatically agree about everything else?
Wow, that makes so much sense!
If only it was true, what an amazing level of agreement would there be in the world!
Jealous? Nah but I must admit he seems to be good at hooking fish.
Quote: JerryLoganOn topic for a change, has anyone considered that diesel costs more than gasoline and that there are several grades of it? Naturally in our trucks we require the best because we burn so much of it that it's a corporate issue. For the general public, forget about the emissions issues and all that garbage, families only worry about costs and it's the greenies who get all uptight about our environment. I don't worry about that because I have confidence that the next generations will figure it all out just as we and those before us have our own issues.
Yes, there is 1 and 2 or something like that. I just asked my dad who was a diesel mechanic for years and he wasn't sure the difference. Diesel should cost less since it is less work to refine it and far lower octane meaning much higher yield per bbl of oil. But my thought is since so few vehicles run on it and there is so much more processing to "clean" it up the price is higher even before use taxes. I have never seen a choice between grades at a fueling station, but I never bothered to look. Last time I needed to pump it was a rented U-HAUL in 1996. U-HAUL no longer keeps diesels in their fleet.
Quote: AZDuffmanYes, there is 1 and 2 or something like that. I just asked my dad who was a diesel mechanic for years and he wasn't sure the difference. Diesel should cost less since it is less work to refine it and far lower octane meaning much higher yield per bbl of oil. But my thought is since so few vehicles run on it and there is so much more processing to "clean" it up the price is higher even before use taxes. I have never seen a choice between grades at a fueling station, but I never bothered to look. Last time I needed to pump it was a rented U-HAUL in 1996. U-HAUL no longer keeps diesels in their fleet.
Where you'll find diesel #1 & #2 is at all the truck stops. I've never seen both at regular gas stations but I've never looked for them either.
But even factoring in the price, it is way cheaper to drive a diesel car than a hybrid as long as you do a decent mileage - like 15K or more.
Quote: weaselmanI think, the reason diesel is more expensive than gas is plain and simple - there is more demand for it. Yes, few cars use it. But all the eighteen-wheelers do, and they need a lot of it, and they make a lot of mileage. And all the ships use it. And the house heating, and ...
But even factoring in the price, it is way cheaper to drive a diesel car than a hybrid as long as you do a decent mileage - like 15K or more.
Diesel in Mexico is cheap because they don't remove all the sulfur. Pemex makes "export grade" diesel, but sells very little of it to the US, because it's so costly to bring it up to US emissions standards. They do sell it in stations in Mexico near the US border. Mexico has a lot of crude oil deposits, but many of those deposits have a high sulfur content. The spot price for oil quoted is almost always that for "light, sweet" crude, i.e., that with a low sulfur content. So diesel would be cheap in the US if it wasn't for the "Ultra-Low-Sulfur-Diesel" being the only kind that can be sold here.
Quote: WizardThis has been touched on before but has anybody ever done a study comparing the total waste and damage to the environment of electric vs. fossil fuel cars? I'm sure electric car drivers award themselves lots of green points for not consuming any gas. However, that electricity has to come from somewhere. Most of it probably came from burning coal -- and lots of it.
Quote: WizardThis has been touched on before but has anybody ever done a study comparing the total waste and damage to the environment of electric vs. fossil fuel cars? I'm sure electric car drivers award themselves lots of green points for not consuming any gas. However, that electricity has to come from somewhere. Most of it probably came from burning coal -- and lots of it.
Our existing power grid is massively more efficient at generating and transmitting power, and cleaner about doing it, than a bunch of little portable internal combustion engines are. Even if both are powered by fossil fuels, you're contributing to less fossil fuel consumption and less pollution generation by getting your car's power from the grid rather than a car engine.
Incidentally, you overlook a substantial source of savings for many potential hybrid purchasers, which is tax credits. This may not be relevant for you, since you live in Nevada and the federal tax credit on the Toyota Highlander hybrid expired; but there are still federal credits available for some other models, and some states (most notably California) also have substantial credits. This can knock thousands off the price differential.
Even ignoring tax credits, I think you're selling the hybrid short. I don't own a hybrid, but my understanding is that the battery packs will generally outlive the vehicle; ten-year-old Priuses, even with 200k+ miles, mostly are still running on their original battery. The average price of gas over the lifetime of the vehicle is likely to be a lot closer to $4 than $3. (I would take the over on $5/gallon in 2020...) And I'd expect that most potential hybrid owners are going to come closer to the city mileage rating than the highway one - obviously it makes no sense for someone doing almost entirely highway driving to get a hybrid, as the regenerative braking almost never gets a chance to kick in.
Basically, a lot of purchasers are looking at a breakeven point of more like 100k-120k miles, which most vehicles will easily outlive these days. That's makes the hybrid a good choice for strictly economic reasons, forget the "green points". For some people, like city drivers in California, choosing the hybrid is a slam dunk for strictly economic reasons. And yeah, for some people, and we're both probably among them, it doesn't make much sense at all.
Charge the cars overnight. Use nuclear and hydro electric energy.
The dealer gives below low book for the trade, and charges a premium for the sardine can on wheels. The cost difference here may be well into the tens of thousands. Figure that one!
I saw a Kia rear ended on the freeway by an old Chevy, and the rear of the vehicle was pushed up to the back seat of the driver. Don't know if the guy lived.
My Yukon has a bad safety rating, because there are high fatalities in a crash involving my type of vehicle.
Do what you will but with all the idiots on the road here in Los Angeles, and God knows where they learned to drive but it wasn't here. I'll gladly pay more for a tank of gas, and when one of these jerks hits me, I'll win.
Not to mention when you're in a little car you get NO respect on the road.
I have an old 79 Toyota Celica I take to the store and short local errands and they cut me off all the time, and tailgate me like they think I don't belong on the road in an old small car, or they think I'm an OTA. (Other than American)
I kid you not!
Quote: BenJammin...all the idiots on the road...
I've always been amused at people who buy huge cars because they would make out better in an accident with another vehicle. There is never any thought given to the additional carnage inflicted on the other driver because he/she must be at fault.
I don't think I've ever met anyone who would say he/she was a worse driver than the median, when 50% of us are.
Quote: BenJamminI now see folks trading in their perfectly good full sized cars and SUV's for a Prius or similar hybrid, or another high mileage vehicle, such as a Nissan, Hyundai, or KIA, or other small economy tin can, because it gets better mileage.
The dealer gives below low book for the trade, and charges a premium for the sardine can on wheels. The cost difference here may be well into the tens of thousands. Figure that one!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American Public. Maybe those low math scores we have been reading about our students are finally coming back to haunt us. Marketing trumps engeneering, math, annd common sense every time. The only time to buy a small car for better mileage is if you were going to buy anyways.
Quote: WizardI've always been amused at people who buy huge cars because they would make out better in an accident with another vehicle. There is never any thought given to the additional carnage inflicted on the other driver because he/she must be at fault.
I don't think I've ever met anyone who would say he/she was a worse driver than the median, when 50% of us are.
Isn't it natural for a human being to be more concerned about people in your car than about those in the next?
Whether it is me, who causes an accident or the other guy, I want us both to be safe. But if I had to choose only one of us, I'll pick my own safety, thank you very much.
BTW, the "media" argument is flawed, I think. The morons on the road that I am afraid of, are not just below median, they are way under the 1st percentile.
Quote: BenJamminthey think I don't belong on the road in an old small car, or they think I'm an OTA. (Other than American)
I kid you not!
Must be a terrible feeling!
Quote: AltutPeople drive large SUV's not because of how much damage they can inflict on the other car who may or may not be the cause of the accident, but because THERE'S MORE OF A CHANCE THEIR CHILDREN WILL SURVIVE AN ACCIDENT. People totally out of touch would never want to see that as rationale for buying a big gas guzzler.
People buy them because they like that size vehicle. Look at the size of a full-size car up until the late 70s and look at an SUV, they are very similar in size.
Quote: AltutThat too. But there's also many moms driving them around with 2 or more kids strapped in. It's either that or drive around in some crappy looking mini-van. If the woman still has any looks then the mini-van's out of the question. Hummers are another story. I always though only guys with small dicks drove those.
I'm not into image. I have the same minivan we bought in 1998 and it's a keeper with a Lexus engine. Since then, we've bought two more houses--I save money to spend on worthwhile stuff. I don't need a car for looks, just transportation.
That said, my 17 year old is tooling around in a red 2010 Mustang GT. We wanted something bulletproof with enough power to get out of trouble (I trust him not to use it to get INTO trouble) and bright enough to be easily seen. He's a good kid and an honor student, and he knows if he screws up he'll be driving the ancient minivan. So far, so good....
Can I be reborn into your family?Quote: FarFromVegasThat said, my 17 year old is tooling around in a red 2010 Mustang GT. We wanted something bulletproof with enough power to get out of trouble (I trust him not to use it to get INTO trouble) and bright enough to be easily seen.
Quote: teddysCan I be reborn into your family?
I doubt I'd notice an extra kid at this point. I'm usually gone buying groceries.
Quote: WizardThis has been touched on before but has anybody ever done a study comparing the total waste and damage to the environment of electric vs. fossil fuel cars? I'm sure electric car drivers award themselves lots of green points for not consuming any gas. However, that electricity has to come from somewhere. Most of it probably came from burning coal -- and lots of it.
It depends upon where you live, because some states are more dependent upon coal than others. But even in the heart of coal country (West Virginia), coal is not the source of 100 percent of their electricity. West Virginia gets about 73 percent of electricity from coal; the U.S. average is 49.7 percent.
Using the national average, let's compare an all-electric Tesla Roadster to an all-gasoline Toyota Corolla. If the Corolla gets 31 miles to the gallon, then over 100 miles the Corolla will consume 3.23 gallons of gas, which in turn produces 63.11 pounds of carbon dioxide. (A gallon of gasoline produces 19.564 pounds of carbon dioxide.) For every 100 miles of travel, a Tesla Roadster needs to be recharged with 31 kilowatt hours of electricity. (Only about 70 percent of that charge goes toward creating motion; the rest is lost due to inefficiencies in the charging process.) Generating a kilowatt hour of electricity produces a national average of 1.55 pounds of carbon dioxide, which means the Tesla vehicle emits 48.05 pounds of CO2 per 100 miles. In states that use the most coal, such as Wyoming, North Dakota, and West Virginia, the CO2 emissions per kilowatt hour are higher—so much higher, in fact, that the Roadster may emit just a few pounds less carbon than the Corolla when all's said and done. On the other hand, if you're a motorist in the Pacific Northwest, where hydroelectric power reigns, going with an EV is an even cleaner choice.
But carbon dioxide isn't the only pollutant spewing from that Corolla's tailpipe. Gasoline combustion produces far more methane and nitrous oxide than coal combustion. (On the other hand, coal gives us sulfur dioxide which in turn gives us acid rain.)
Bottom line: it's a lot easier to control emissions at a few power plants than at millions of tailpipes.
http://www.slate.com/id/2179609/
Quote: AltutLet's face it, electric cars are a joke and always will be. Why do you think most of them look so stupid? They may make it in some oddball countries but they'll never catch on here. Imagine plugging in for a charge overnight and only being able to go 200 miles the next day when your destination is 450 miles away. Imagine hitting the freeway with its 75mph speed limit and your little pregnant roller skate will only make 60. Then you got those ridiculous batteries that'll need replacing a lot more than your tires.
I've been at the bedside of four relatives in my life, and I always ask them what's one thing they'd have done differently if they had it to do over. They all gave me at least 2 answers, but each of them said they'd have driven a better car and not been so cheap. To me that meant we don't necessarily have to go out and buy Cadillacs or Mercedes, but there's no reason at all to hook up with one of those little pieces of junk hybrids either.
I'll keep my SUV thank you.
How many hybrids and electric cars have you driven? Face facts within the next few decades the majority of cars will have an electric motor most likely powered by a fuel cell. You do understand a hybrid and an electric car are different.
But if the biggest regret your relatives have had on their deathbed was they should have driven a better car I must say I hope that is my major regret at the end.
Quote: WizardWhen school gets out at Piggot Elementary hoards of parents drive there to pick up their kids, despite the fact that they all live within walking distance. I won't get into that. What bothers me is the about one car in ten will double park, park in a red zone, or in the school bus loading zone. Virtually 100% of the offending vehicles are SUVs. It never fails.
Where I live all the parents drive all to the bus stop and idle waiting for the bus. We are talking about a hundred yards. When I was a kid if I asked my dad to drive across the street to the bus stop so I didn't have to stand outside I would have received a very perplexed look.
Quote: AltutI understand the difference, I've driven neither nor do I ever wish to. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Prius or any other hybrid, and I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near one of those dumb plug-ins. To me they all just seem like some kind of band-aid fix until a real idea comes forth. They seem like such a joke out there on the roads among all the big pickups and SUV's, and even among all the other real cars.
I don't know if that was each of their biggest regrets, but it must have had an importance to them. So I drive the best car I can afford and I will from now on.
No offense but you are commenting on things you have never used. If this vehicle is not right for you that doesn't mean it isn't right for someone else.
Gas mileage on a person by person is not a huge fluctuation but if you are a corporation with a tens of thousands cars on the road even saving 5mpg works out to a huge number.
My wife and I have a AWD vehicle and a Hybrid. Both have the same safety rating. But the AWD vehicle is mainly used as a second car or in the snow. But between the Subaru AWD and Toyota Hybrid the ride, pick up and drive-ability all go w the Toyota.
In most states the Hybrids are sold tax free so the higher price is not always a case. I drive a lot. Between 15 and 20 k a year so going from 25mph to 40 mph can make a difference.
Quote: AltutHow long does it take to R&D a new generation or three of batteries for these things? If we really wanted to we could have done that 15 years ago. Something's stopping it from happening. Something will get us out of the funk we're in now, but it ain't going to be the current crop of hybrids or any fandangled plug-in.
What is stoppingt it is physics--electricity does not like to be stored. Far from "stopping it" if someone could invent a decent battery they would fight to get it to market. Like others have said here, electric cars are a total joke and will be for our lifetimes. Until all people have a garage (many if not most do not-ask anyone living in an apartment) to plug in, until none live in cold weather where batteries die quick (ask anyone who lives in the northeast), until no one lives in hot weather areas where battery life is short (ask anyone who lives in Phoenix or Vegas), until people stop wanting to make quick side trips, well it goes on and on. Why Obama is callign for 2MM of these clunkers to be on our roads is a mystery-maybe he owns stock in Tesla?
We will be on gasoline or some other liquid fuel for 100 or more years. It might not be gasoline, it might be methonal, etc. Best case for improvement might be if they could safely make a briefcase-size nuke to put under everyone's hood.
And, BTW, CO2 is NOT A POLLUTANT, so that argument in favor of electrics is moot.
Jerry, is that you?Quote: AltutI agree. I also don't want to see my son driving some sissy thing that hisses and squeals when it goes down the road. I want him to hear the roar of a big V8 as it gulps the fuel, and have enough room inside to spread out and do his girlfriend just as past generations of us have.
Quote: teddysJerry, is that you?
I was wondering that myself.
Quote: AZDuffman
We will be on gasoline or some other liquid fuel for 100 or more years. It might not be gasoline, it might be methonal, etc. Best case for improvement might be if they could safely make a briefcase-size nuke to put under everyone's hood.
Bio-diesel. I don't understand why it is not being pushed forward more aggressively. I mean, the technology already exists, and works way better than electrics or even hybrids. It is more economical, it is cheap, and it is renewable. Sounds like a miracle solution (which it isn't, of course, but still ... it's nothing like fantasizing about nuclear-powered Toyotas).
Quote: weaselmanBio-diesel. I don't understand why it is not being pushed forward more aggressively. I mean, the technology already exists, and works way better than electrics or even hybrids. It is more economical, it is cheap, and it is renewable. Sounds like a miracle solution (which it isn't, of course, but still ... it's nothing like fantasizing about nuclear-powered Toyotas).
I like the idea of bio-diesel. Rudolph Diesel thought his engines would run on bio-diesel 100 years before we had the name for it. From what I hear the biggest drawback is that diesels are finicky about starting on it in cold weather. Add in there is always the issue of your car competing with you for your food source.
Quote: AltutI agree. I also don't want to see my son driving some sissy thing that hisses and squeals when it goes down the road. I want him to hear the roar of a big V8 as it gulps the fuel, and have enough room inside to spread out and do his girlfriend just as past generations of us have.
If he had a decent sized penis the car wouldn't matter.
Quote: AZDuffmanI like the idea of bio-diesel. Rudolph Diesel thought his engines would run on bio-diesel 100 years before we had the name for it. From what I hear the biggest drawback is that diesels are finicky about starting on it in cold weather. Add in there is always the issue of your car competing with you for your food source.
Plug yer diesel into a block heater and there's no problems starting it in cold weather. And once they get going, they keep going. Loved my little European Diesel Golf, just never did enough miles in it to get the benefit and keep the engine happy. 5% of the diesel was biodiesel.
Quote: AltutHow long does it take to R&D a new generation or three of batteries for these things? If we really wanted to we could have done that 15 years ago. Something's stopping it from happening. Something will get us out of the funk we're in now, but it ain't going to be the current crop of hybrids or any fandangled plug-in.
Battery technology has moved on MASSIVELY in the last two decades. The fact we have teeny tiny portable phones, computers and all sorts of gee whiz gadgets in from battery improvements.
Now, the profile for a battery in a electric car is different, but even that's changed so that we can now run a lot further at a much more reasonable speed on battery power than before. I have no doubt that (if there's the economic need) another 15 years of R&D will make further improvements as much as the last 15 years.
Quote: AltutLet's face it, electric cars are a joke and always will be.
I'll quibble with you over the word "always". Predictions are tricky. If gasoline ever hits $7 or $8 per gallon or more, electric cars will no longer be a joke.
Quote: AltutImagine plugging in for a charge overnight and only being able to go 200 miles the next day when your destination is 450 miles away. Imagine hitting the freeway with its 75mph speed limit and your little pregnant roller skate will only make 60.
1) The Chevy Volt has no range limit: you could drive it 1,000 miles (or more) per day.
2) The Chevy Volt's top speed is 100mph, which ought to be sufficient for most drivers.
Quote: AltutI'm not familiar with diesels. What's bio-diesel?
It's a diesel attracted to diesel and gasoline engines. OOOPs Sorry my mistake. That's a bi-diesel !
Quote: renoI'll quibble with you over the word "always". Predictions are tricky. If gasoline ever hits $7 or $8 per gallon or more, electric cars will no longer be a joke.
1) The Chevy Volt has no range limit: you could drive it 1,000 miles (or more) per day.
2) The Chevy Volt's top speed is 100mph, which ought to be sufficient for most drivers.
How will gas at $7 extend the range or performance or electrics? How will it change the fact that people who live in apartments or park on-street have nowhere to charge?
The Volt is a joke on the American Taxpayer. Why I am helping contribute $5,000+ so someone can buy a new car is beyond me.
Quote: Wavy70How many hybrids and electric cars have you driven?
I think you're trying to debate the latest incarnation of Jerry's sock puppet.
Quote: AZDuffmanHow will it change the fact that people who live in apartments or park on-street have nowhere to charge?
Actually that should be easier to fix than shipping in thousands of gallons of gasoline everywhere and having it tanked underground all over a city. Parking meters with outlets?
