When was Jesus Born?
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Quote: Wavy70I thought he was born in August.
I think the historical correlation would be the time that the Romans ordered an empire-wide census, the date(s) that it was carried out, and the independent records of historians such as Josephus. I find it difficult to believe that such a census would have been held in the dead of winter.
What really happened, of course, is that the Catholic Church co-opted a pagan holiday--the winter solstice festival--and Christianized it. It was a very successful assimilation tactic, also used to create Easter and All Saints' Day, among others. No one really knows what time of year Jesus was born, so the Church said it was Dec. 25.
Quote: mkl654321I think the historical correlation would be the time that the Romans ordered an empire-wide census,.
Its now well known that:
"There is no record of a worldwide census as stated by Luke having been made in the last decade BCE. If one had been conducted, it would have been so disruptive that its effects certainly would have been recorded at the time in many Roman documents. A local census was taken by Quirinius during 6 CE, but that would have been when Jesus was about ten years of age. Also, it was held in Judea, but not the Galilee where the Gospel of Matthew said that Joseph lived."
Bethlehem in Biblical Lore, The Jerusalem Post, (2000)
Quote: mkl654321I think the historical correlation would be the time that the Romans ordered an empire-wide census, the date(s) that it was carried out, and the independent records of historians such as Josephus. I find it difficult to believe that such a census would have been held in the dead of winter.
What really happened, of course, is that the Catholic Church co-opted a pagan holiday--the winter solstice festival--and Christianized it. It was a very successful assimilation tactic, also used to create Easter and All Saints' Day, among others. No one really knows what time of year Jesus was born, so the Church said it was Dec. 25.
He just seemed like a Leo.
Quote: mkl654321I think the historical correlation would be the time that the Romans ordered an empire-wide census, the date(s) that it was carried out, and the independent records of historians such as Josephus. I find it difficult to believe that such a census would have been held in the dead of winter.
What really happened, of course, is that the Catholic Church co-opted a pagan holiday--the winter solstice festival--and Christianized it. It was a very successful assimilation tactic, also used to create Easter and All Saints' Day, among others. No one really knows what time of year Jesus was born, so the Church said it was Dec. 25.
I wonder....what's it like in a household without religion or happiness at a time of the season most American families celebrate the birth of Christ? And with children around?
Ever hear of the following:
In GOD We Trust
GOD Bless America
One Nation Under GOD
Quote: MathExtremistI'm no historian, but wouldn't that make the year of Jesus' birth 4 BCE? I thought the whole point of the BCE/CE split (a.k.a. BC/AD) was based on the year of Jesus' birth...
The date of that census, which can be fixed from Roman records, is the reason many historians put the birth of Jesus at 4 BCE, but that's just a guess as there's no evidence that Jesus was ten years old at the time. The census by Quirinius was probably not the one that Luke mentions, anyway. There would have been an empire-wide census at some point around 9/8 BCE, and it would have required everyone to return to their place of residence (NOT birth) to register.
Most historians now place the date of Jesus' birth at "somewhere between 9 BCE and 6 CE".
Jesus was born in 4 B.C.E., according to contemporary historians who figured out the actual year. The early Roman and Gregorian calendar makers got it wrong. 'Course any historical Jesus information is going to be sketchy because there are basically only two sources to go on: Josephus and the Gospels, with some other incomplete ancient texts.
There was no census. The census was a literary device invented by Luke to place the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem to fulfill the Jewish prophecy of the Davidic Messiah being born in Bethlehem. Jesus was probably born in Nazareth, his hometown. The flight to Egypt probably never happened either.
Quote: JerryLoganI wonder....what's it like in a household without religion or happiness at a time of the season most American families celebrate the birth of Christ? And with children around?
Ever hear of the following:
In GOD We Trust
GOD Bless America
One Nation Under GOD
If we're really going to be trusting in God, shouldn't we be trying extra hard to celebrate his Son's birth on the actual date that it occurred? By celebrating Christmas in December, we're celebrating the Church's co-opting of another religion's holiday as a cheap method of evangelism. It's like lauding the kid on the playground who's always trying to one-up the other kids. WAIT. HOLY CRAP! It's like MKL here...
Quote: rdw4potusIf we're really going to be trusting in God, shouldn't we be trying extra hard to celebrate his Son's birth on the actual date that it occurred? By celebrating Christmas in December, we're celebrating the Church's co-opting of another religion's holiday as a cheap method of evangelism. It's like lauding the kid on the playground who's always trying to one-up the other kids. WAIT. HOLY CRAP! It's like MKL here...
You know, my birthday is a certain date, but if anyone wants to celebrate it on any day of the year then I'm happy with that. There's nothing wrong with history picking a day in Dec. to celebrate Jesus' birth and the rest of us running with it. Little did the originators know how much this issue would get under the liberals skin, which of course is an added bonus and further reason to celebrate Christmas!
Quote: JerryLoganYou know, my birthday is a certain date, but if anyone wants to celebrate it on any day of the year then I'm happy with that. There's nothing wrong with history picking a day in Dec. to celebrate Jesus' birth and the rest of us running with it. Little did the originators know how much this issue would get under the liberals skin, which of course is an added bonus and further reason to celebrate Christmas!
I don't think it's a matter of whether or not you'd be happy with it. Of course you're happy with it - just as long as your birthday is celebrated. The question is how your parents, especially your mother, would feel if the date were moved. She tried pretty hard to shove your giant head out of her, and she did it on a specific day. Now you're saying that day isn't good enough, and you'd rather celebrate your birthday at the same time as the Pagans celebrate...ummm...something?
Quote: CalderHuh?
Please note - lower case "c" which is how I address people who designate themselves as Christian not those who act as Christian - there is a huge difference.
I, personally, am neither liberal nor Christian - I believe in me. I do not hate anyone it too is a waste of time.
Quote: MathExtremistThe originators of Christianity were about as liberal as you can get - they started a new religion based on a totally novel concept of "the Messiah". In fact, that's one of the primary differences between Judaism and Christianity - Judaism holds that the Messiah has not yet arrived, while Christianity holds that the Messiah was/is Jesus. When Jesus was born, the prevailing concept of Messiah included ending all wars, rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem, and universal monotheism. Jesus didn't accomplish those things, so in order to call Jesus the Messiah, early Christianity had to change what "Messiah" meant. If that's not "liberal", I don't know what is.
The Temple had already been rebuilt. Monotheism is still practiced by the Jews, The Moslems and The Christians. No, ending all wars was not what this was all about. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
Quote: DeMangoThe Temple had already been rebuilt. Monotheism is still practiced by the Jews, The Moslems and The Christians. No, ending all wars was not what this was all about. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
That's my point: the Christian view of the Messiah is different than the prevailing view at the time of Jesus' birth. I'm not here to argue what's right or wrong but just point out that Christianity obviously holds a different view. In the old testament, the Messiah does indeed preside over a time of global peace. See Isaiah 9:6-7. Or Micah 4 (swords into plowshares, etc.).
Quote: JerryLoganThat's another of their denials.
No, it's one of your denials.
Is Ron Paul a liberal?
Is it possible to have a liberal in the Republican party (rather than being a liberal Repuiblican, I mean a "true" Liberal with all the capitals and that).
The Libertarian Party of America is not as far as I know a left-leaning party at all. They stand for a very hands off approach to government regulation in the fiscal supply and in (most) social matters as well.
Don't get confused by having to define everything in terms of left and right wing.
Quote: JerryLogan... when liberals start feeling like they're surrounded by an intelligence greater than theirs...
I'm not sure that reasoning would apply here. The only one making any kind of attack against supposed liberals is you and I'm sure that anyone here who may align themselves with liberal views would not in the least feel that you represent an intelligence greater than... oh just much of any intelligence in general. I would on the other hand feel some level of concern if I found myself surrounded by a group of people anything like you. It is obvious that you lack the moral fibre, sensibility or common decency that society requires of its citizenry to retain any level of civility. The only thing you seem to enjoy is putting people down and in this Jerry you have shown your true colours. You are dispicable and a crude, deformed version of humanity that we could all do without. You are neither Democrat nor Republican. You are neither right nor left wing. You are simply a nasty, oversized child who takes delight in knocking others down as you find it too difficult to actually build yourself up.
If you feel offended by this and would like to run off to tattle to the Wizard, or if the Wizard chooses to ban me for these comments, I'll be quite happy to step away for a while so long as I've taken the opportunity to say a few words in your direction.
I know that you only write what you write simply to get a reaction and I know I've just given you the reaction you so desire... oh well, enjoy it in whatever way you do.
Another missed thing is the term "Inn." Kids get taught Mary and Joseph stayted in the stable because no room was guaranteed with an AMEX card. Reality is they were not looking for a "hotel" but "Inn" meant the spare room of Joseph's family, so they put them in the stable.
Whether he was the Son of God, and performed the miracles stated by the gospels is probably a debate for the ages. Also how much of the Gospels is the real truth, how much a version of the truth and how much is a conglomeration of various sources is also a debate for the ages.
Jesus was not the only person written about by Josephus who claimed to be the Messiah.
Quote: DeMangoYes Bob; The authenticity of the Bible and the Roman historian Josephus are not doubted,
Oh yeah?
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html
I saw a special on the History or Discovery channel a while back about Christmas that made a logical point. The bible mentions shepherds with their flocks in the fields, and apparently that was common practice only after the lambs were newly born. Which is in the Spring. Which puts Jesus' birthday sometime in April most likely.
Quote: Toes14If we can get away from the political and religious name calling and get back to the actual thread topic . . . .
I saw a special on the History or Discovery channel a while back about Christmas that made a logical point. The bible mentions shepherds with their flocks in the fields, and apparently that was common practice only after the lambs were newly born. Which is in the Spring. Which puts Jesus' birthday sometime in April most likely.
One more off-topc post...Has anyone here seen The Kentucky Fried Movie? One of my favorite parts of that movie is a conversation in front of a burning building, as things are blowing up all around. It goes like this:
The Architect: What are you saying?
The Nurse: Leave her... come back to Montana with me.
The Architect: I could no sooner run away from her than myself.
The Nurse: I'm not asking you to run, I'm asking you to face reality!
The Architect: Whose reality, yours or mine?
The Nurse: My reality AND yours, that's whose!
The Architect: What are you saying?
The Nurse: Leave her! Come back to Montana with me!
The Architect: I could no sooner run away from her than myself!
The Nurse: I'm not asking you to run, I'm asking you to face reality!
The Architect: Whose reality, yours or mine?
The Nurse: My reality AND yours, that's whose!
The Architect: What are you saying?
The Nurse: Leave her... come back to Montana with me.....
It seems like we do relatively well talking about gambling, but the above basically happens any time we wander into politics or religion.
Quote: rdw4potusIt seems like we do relatively well talking about gambling, but the above basically happens any time we wander into politics or religion.
Gambling: large number of trials, each trial is simple, each outcome is independent and easy to comprehend.
Politics: small number of trials, each trial is complex, each outcome is interdependent and hard to comprehend.
Religion: single trial, each trial is infinitely complex, the outcome is impossible to comprehend because it's not over until you're dead.
In short, analyzing gambling is simple, while analyzing politics is hard and analyzing religion is impossible.
Quote: JerryLoganI'm a lover not a fighter.
Jesus: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matthew 22:39)
Jerry: "It is soooo typical of America-hating, work ethic-hating, man/woman marriage-hating, samesexmarriage-loving, entitlement-loving, family value-hating, illegal alien-loving, religion-hating, hippie-loving, lifelong student-supporting, police hating, violent protest-loving environmental alarmists."
Jesus: "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)
Jerry: "getting under the skin of liberal kool-aid drinkers is one of the more satisfying bonuses of the Christmas season, and watching atheists squirm at the mere mention of their underlying unhappiness and perpetual skepticism only adds to that joy."
Jesus: "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:10)
Jerry: "Oh, notice how MKL's stayed away from this thread? Imagine the PAIN he felt as he looked at a JL one dollar royal! Absolutely PRICELESS!!"
I'm sure this is nothing new to self attesting good Christians here.
To figure out when Jesus was born just check the Bible.
As we all know from Chronicles that the divisions of the shifts at the Temple of the LORD was delegated to the descendants of Aaron. The Talmud is quite detailed about the delegation and schedule. This routine was kept until the Temple was destroyed in AD70
Zacharias was one of the descendants of Aaron and was serving at the Temple of the LORD during the period of Abijah. Abijah was the 8th cycle. During this time Gabriel visited Zacharias and told him that he and his wife Elizabeth would have a son and name him John. Long bout of infertility with them. Shortly after Zacharias finished his service at the Temple of the LORD he returned home and Elizabeth conceived. (ref Luke 1:5-25)
I'm sure it is needless to say to the Christians here that Elizabeth was Marys sister.
Around the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy Gabriel Visited Mary and told her "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end." Luke 1:30-33
So since Elizabeth was in her sixth month when Gabriel visited Mary her Child would be aprox 6 months older than Mary's. Elizabeth's son is John the Baptist.
So if aprox 9 months past the period of Abijah John the Baptist was born Jesus would have been born 6 months later. Abijah would end 8 weeks after Passover Around the end of May early June. John was conceived when Zacharias returned home (Luke 1:24). 9 months later would be February or Early March. 6th months following the birth of John Jesus was born. Making it August or September.
Other factors include that sheep flocks would not be in the pasture during the winter. They would be grain fed till the spring.
Census would have been taken during festival time most likely Sukkot (Harvest).
Many early Christians believed celebrating Jesus's birth was a bit too pagan.
It was Pope Julius I around 340AD declared the 25th of December as Christs birth.
But according to Jesus the Catholic Church is the true church and whatever is binding on earth is binding in heaven so the birth is 12/25
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:18-19
So much for Tuesday night Catechism.
Quote: EvenBobWas Jesus even born? Buddha wasn't, he's a composite character, like the Greek and Roman gods. Is there any proof that Jesus lived?
Quote: Wavy70Actually both Jesus and Siddhârtha Gautama had a lot of contemporary documentation on the births.
The evidence is almost overwhelming that Buddha is a mythical person. Which is fine, he doesn't need to be real for his teachings to be valid. Jesus doesn't need to be real either for his teachings to be valid. But its the rest of the juvenile mumbo jumbo connected to him (virgin mother, miracles, rising from the dead, etc) that requires a live person.
Quote: EvenBobThe evidence is almost overwhelming that Buddha is a mythical person. Which is fine, he doesn't need to be real for his teachings to be valid. Jesus doesn't need to be real either for his teachings to be valid. But its the rest of the juvenile mumbo jumbo connected to him (virgin mother, miracles, rising from the dead, etc) that requires a live person.
Not sure what you call overwhelming proof of his non existence but I agree that the message is the valuable part.
"Nonexistence of proof is not proof of nonexistence"
Quote: MathExtremistJesus: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matthew 22:39)
Jerry: "It is soooo typical of America-hating, work ethic-hating, man/woman marriage-hating, samesexmarriage-loving, entitlement-loving, family value-hating, illegal alien-loving, religion-hating, hippie-loving, lifelong student-supporting, police hating, violent protest-loving environmental alarmists."
Jesus: "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)
Jerry: "getting under the skin of liberal kool-aid drinkers is one of the more satisfying bonuses of the Christmas season, and watching atheists squirm at the mere mention of their underlying unhappiness and perpetual skepticism only adds to that joy."
Jesus: "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:10)
Jerry: "Oh, notice how MKL's stayed away from this thread? Imagine the PAIN he felt as he looked at a JL one dollar royal! Absolutely PRICELESS!!"
I think you might want to stick with the slide rule and stay away from the Jim Beam....
I'd also like to use this opportunity to warn Jerry that he has been in violation of rule 7 (no hijacking) many times. I'm not going to keep cleaning up you Jerry by splitting threads that you ruin. The next suspension is going to be longer than the first two, I might add.
In the process of splitting the thread, I split off a good one which should have stayed here. I'm quoting it below.
Quote: MathExtremistThe originators of Christianity were about as liberal as you can get - they started a new religion based on a totally novel concept of "the Messiah". In fact, that's one of the primary differences between Judaism and Christianity - Judaism holds that the Messiah has not yet arrived, while Christianity holds that the Messiah was/is Jesus. When Jesus was born, the prevailing concept of Messiah included ending all wars, rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem, and universal monotheism. Jesus didn't accomplish those things, so in order to call Jesus the Messiah, early Christianity had to change what "Messiah" meant. If that's not "liberal", I don't know what is.
Finally, the post above this one came in while I was doing the split. I'll give Jerry some time to repost it there, if he wishes, and then I'm going to just bust it.
Quote: rdw4potusI don't think it's a matter of whether or not you'd be happy with it. Of course you're happy with it - just as long as your birthday is celebrated. The question is how your parents, especially your mother, would feel if the date were moved. She tried pretty hard to shove your giant head out of her, and she did it on a specific day. Now you're saying that day isn't good enough, and you'd rather celebrate your birthday at the same time as the Pagans celebrate...ummm...something?
I want to know what date Jerry was born so that on that day, I can wear black, muck out the pigsty, give myself an enema, and drink some castor oil.
Quote: MathExtremistJerry: "Oh, notice how MKL's stayed away from this thread? Imagine the PAIN he felt as he looked at a JL one dollar royal! Absolutely PRICELESS!!"
It actually caused me no pain at all to see that Jerry had posted a picture he took of someone else's royal.
Quote: WizardI just split off a bunch of off topic posts, mostly at Jerry's doing, to What is the difference between a liberal and a libertarian? (FSZ). That is in the Free Speech Zone, so have at it.
I'd also like to use this opportunity to warn Jerry that he has been in violation of rule 7 (no hijacking) many times. I'm not going to keep cleaning up after you Jerry by splitting threads that you ruin. The next suspension is going to be longer than the first two, I might add.
In the process of splitting the thread, I split off a good one which should have stayed here. I'm quoting it below.
Finally, the post above this one came in while I was doing the split. I'll give Jerry some time to repost it there, if he wishes, and then I'm going to just bust it.
I have little idea of what you're talking about here. When I post I do so from thought and don't spend hours researching the bible and the Internet to spin together a reply just because someone bothered me with what they believe. I see atheists as unhappy, conflicted, pessimistic, confused haters and there's plenty of them here. Tough love. They see me as believing in fairy tales or something, but one thing's for sure: they're a minority and that's exactly where they need to be in order to minimalize the bother & danger they pose on those who give life credit for what it really is. Also, I can't be controlled by suspensions or bannings (which I believe you have every right to do) or fines or whatever because unlike some of these guys here, I'm not forum-addicted and actually have quite a life outside this. I do believe, however, that by sharing some of that life on here has overwhelmed some and made others jealous. Cry me a river.
Quote: mkl654321I want to know what date Jerry was born so that on that day, I can wear black, muck out the pigsty, give myself an enema, and drink some castor oil.
I would imagine giving yourself an enema is not the thrill it used to be.
Quote: Wavy70Golly this is an easy one.
I'm sure this is nothing new to self attesting good Christians here.
To figure out when Jesus was born just check the Bible.
(snip)
So much for Tuesday night Catechism.
Only cut for brevity of my reply... that's an awesomely interesting and detailed post. Thanks.
Quote: thecesspitA man called Jesus existed, if you believe the non-gospel writing shortly after the time of Jesus (Josephus was writing about 30-40 years after the crucifixation of Jesus).
Whether he was the Son of God, and performed the miracles stated by the gospels is probably a debate for the ages. Also how much of the Gospels is the real truth, how much a version of the truth and how much is a conglomeration of various sources is also a debate for the ages.
Jesus was not the only person written about by Josephus who claimed to be the Messiah.
The Romans also kept records of the people they executed. Those records were in the archives of the Procurator of Judea.
Obviously, the Bible is a conglomeration of allegorical fables, legends, and poetry, written by several dozen people in at least ten different languages over the course of fifteen centuries. Furthermore, it was five times as large as it is now before the Church excised four-fifths of it in the fourth century. So anyone who believes the present version is an accurate historical record, let alone any kind of definitive "word of God", has been holding his head under the holy water a bit too long.
It's a pity that Josephus turned out to be so self-serving and tale-spinning, or we could have taken his histories as definitive. He's a fascinating guy, though--I wonder why no one ever wrote a book about his life. Michener's "The Source" deals with him at some length.
Quote: mkl654321The Romans also kept records of the people they executed. Those records were in the archives of the Procurator of Judea.
Obviously, the Bible is a conglomeration of allegorical fables, legends, and poetry, written by several dozen people in at least ten different languages over the course of fifteen centuries. Furthermore, it was five times as large as it is now before the Church excised four-fifths of it in the fourth century. So anyone who believes the present version is an accurate historical record, let alone any kind of definitive "word of God", has been holding his head under the holy water a bit too long.
It's a pity that Josephus turned out to be so self-serving and tale-spinning, or we could have taken his histories as definitive. He's a fascinating guy, though--I wonder why no one ever wrote a book about his life. Michener's "The Source" deals with him at some length.
Interesting. Two self-described intelletuals and atheists arguing over something they know little about and need to look up on the Internet, and if they believed in any of it would be cause for self-inflicted lobotomies!
Quote: thecesspitOnly cut for brevity of my reply... that's an awesomely interesting and detailed post. Thanks.
No prob. I made some interesting choices for courses in college. 'Comparative Religion 101? That will look good on my CV'
Religions have always fascinated me. Oddly they are more the same then they are different.
Tomorrow we can go over how the idea of Transubstantiation split Europe.
Quote: JerryLoganInteresting. Two self-described intelletuals and atheists arguing over something they know little about and need to look up on the Internet, and if they believed in any of it would be cause for self-inflicted lobotomies!
Normally I would let one slide, but just after warning you about hijacking an hour ago, in the same thread, that post is disrespectful to me, the rules, and the forum at large. That post has nothing to do with Jesus' date of birth, as well being a personal insult. Seven day suspension.
