Gambling Career (Financial End)

Long time reader first time poster!!

I'm currently working on a Master's Degree in Accounting, and despite my knowledge of house edge, volatility, etc. I've developed an affinity for going to the casinos (doesn't hurt that I live within an hour's drive from Tunica). I usually play BJ and VP with basic strategy and a halfway attempts at Wonging in and out while watching my friends blow through their bankrolls. I'm maybe a bit ahead if comps and a few big nights are taken into account.

My question, though, is about trying get into the industry on the other side possibly as a forensic accountant or auditor for a casino in the Gulf Coast region. I've got a two year contract for doing external banking audits once I graduate, but I don't plan to stay in public accounting for the long term. Any advice or tips would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks and love the site!

Quote: rebelaccountant

Long time reader first time poster!!

I'm currently working on a Master's Degree in Accounting, and despite my knowledge of house edge, volatility, etc. I've developed an affinity for going to the casinos (doesn't hurt that I live within an hour's drive from Tunica). I usually play BJ and VP with basic strategy and a halfway attempts at Wonging in and out while watching my friends blow through their bankrolls. I'm maybe a bit ahead if comps and a few big nights are taken into account.

My question, though, is about trying get into the industry on the other side possibly as a forensic accountant or auditor for a casino in the Gulf Coast region. I've got a two year contract for doing external banking audits once I graduate, but I don't plan to stay in public accounting for the long term. Any advice or tips would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks and love the site!

I'd say it is like any other hard to get job. You need to get inside the casino and then be able to see their internal job postings. Try for a weekend gig doing anything, even working in the kitfchen. My thought is you will have to be in regular accounting to prove yourself first.

Who would be your employer? I doubt casinos hire forensic accountants... I would imagine a law firm would handle that and would outsource something to a specialized CPA firm or something. Oh, I imagine casinos do have accountants on their payrolls and do perform routine audits but if you really want specialized, major work I don't think they would have auditors like that on the payroll.

You would probably make some contacts in your bank auditing days to come.

Casino operators may indeed be interested in such skills, don't assume.
Many postings are public. Apply online:
Station Casinos
Boyd Gaming
etc...
Seek and ye shall find....

Contact an accountant placement service, such as Robert Half.

Contact the casinos directly, show them that you know accounting and GAMBLING, and I bet they will try to find a place for you. Be thinking in the meantime
how your accounting skills can be brought to bear on cheating dealers, suits, and etc., that's as an adjective, not verb.

Quote: Paigowdan

Casino operators may indeed be interested in such skills, don't assume.
Many postings are public. Apply online:
Station Casinos
Boyd Gaming
etc...
Seek and ye shall find....

Dan, you are at Fiesta Henderson, and what shift 1/20 - 1/24. I must look you up.

Thanks for all the advice!!

I'll definitively keep everything in mind. Hopefully in two years I'll have some good contacts

i have a bachelors degree in accounting. i applied for an internal auditing job with boyd gaming before. they had 3 candidates including me and they took the person who applied internally already working at some other job there. if that helps any.

Quote: dm

Quote: Paigowdan

Casino operators may indeed be interested in such skills, don't assume.
Many postings are public. Apply online:
Station Casinos
Boyd Gaming
etc...
Seek and ye shall find....

Dan, you are at Fiesta Henderson, and what shift 1/20 - 1/24. I must look you up.

Thursday through Monday, 7PM to 3AM, normally on Craps or Pai Gow Poker. Break for 20 mins every hour. You can reach me here with PM.
One college-educated crap dealer (from Bulgaria) I used to work with, (focus on accounting and finance), became a financial analyst with the casino operator.

Quote: rebelaccountant

I usually play BJ and VP with basic strategy and a halfway attempts at Wonging in and out...

I know this is beyond minimal, but just in case...

If you for any reason caught hell in a casino, you can pretty much kiss a casino job goodbye. Dan often tells the story of the capper that ruined his career opportunities; in the casino biz, it doesn't even have to be that bad. You won't even need an actual criminal charge, get on a list for anything and they won't even look at you.

You probably just count for fun, and it'll probably be no big deal, but I just wanted to put that out there. Better than "I wish someone would have told me!" ;) Also, these guys are right, it's much easier getting in from the inside. Even if you had to bus tables or work Security, most places give priority to hiring from the inside.

Just an FYI, as I know people who have done both forensic accounting, worked for casinos, and consulted for casinos.

As an employee of the casino, you can't gamble at any of their properties. If you're an accountant, don't think you'll be handling the money. They have separate people for that. Your role will basically be crunching numbers for financial reporting and checking those figures while you are surrounded by the luster of walking into a casino and never really being able to partake. Better yet, you might be stuck in a shoebox crunching those numbers. One without windows. Or you maybe in a corporate office, not even remotely close to the casino.

However, if all that appeals to you, public accounting firms have gaming divisions which they audit and consult. Working directly for a casino can be interesting depending on what you're doing. A security/surveillance department actually catches cheaters. An auditing department only cares about financial reporting.

And don't touch that chip on the floor. That = automatic termination if caught. But hey like I said, if you like that environment, go for it. By the way, you need to network and fill out hundreds of job applications. If you're fresh out of college, or fresh out of a low-tier mba program, a recruiting firm can only help if you have experience.

Quote: Face

IIf you for any reason caught hell in a casino, you can pretty much kiss a casino job goodbye. Dan often tells the story of the capper that ruined his career opportunities; in the casino biz, it doesn't even have to be that bad. You won't even need an actual criminal charge, get on a list for anything and they won't even look at you.

Very True. If you have a gaming license or work in the business (casino pit crew, slot crew, or distributor):
1. Don't count, bicker with dealers or floormen, or do anything that'll get you flagged as an AP, or noticed by surveillance. Just the bad rep alone of being a dick as a player while in the industry is deadly. The LAST thing you want to do at a table is cause a problem and say, "Well! I'm a dealer or floorman at such-and-such casino, and let me tell you...yada yada yada...." the answer is: we'll be calling YOUR boss at YOUR casino about this incident, moron!" [Opps!!] It's a very small and inbred industry. When I play, I generally don't play at sister properties, I don't play at BJ tables, I don't take shots, I don't stiff the dealer, etc. Now, casinos don't mind their dealers playing table games at other properties and slots (- it's like we're working for free when we lose!) - but any problem or incident gets around reputation-wise, - or even a paper trail. This is Not Good.
2. Don't play at sister properties within your casino organization.
3. If you're higher casino management (shift manager and above), don't play.

We do have a surveillance guy from a major strip casino play at Fiesta, but he is a total gentleman, totally honest and clean, doesn't touch BJ, and as invisible and as easy to deal to as can be.

If you work in the industry, be a model customer if a customer, or don't be a customer at all. If you work for a casino, the last thing you want to do is cause a problem for a casino.

Quote: Paigowdan

he is a total gentleman, totally honest and clean, doesn't touch BJ, and as invisible and as easy to deal to as can be.
If you work in the industry, be a model customer if a customer, or don't be a customer at all. If you work for a casino, the last thing you want to do is cause a problem for a casino.

Strange that you added "doesn't touch BJ".

I certainly agree that those who get sloshed and even innocently become involved in any sort of notoriety in a casino will wind up having the word passed to their supervisors. Someone will have recognized you even if you keep your mouth shut about where you work.

Actually, no. Once acquiring the ability to count, you cannot shut off or ignore this "skill" while in action at a table. furthermore, it is known to all pit personnel that BJ is a countable game. Before I was officially in the business, I went on a BJ winning streak that got me heat without me counting, just luck.
If you have a gaming license or are in the casino business, you really don't want to be anywhere NEAR at table that's getting heat or scrutiny. Always wise to play it safe.

Pai Gow Poker, clean dice play, poker room play are all okay, "safe," with good behavior.
I don't drink at a bar or go to the sports book at Fiesta. I certainly don't play table games there, I can't. I go to their steak house and buffet from time to time, and sometimes play some video Keno, but that's about it.
Mainly, I throw dice and play Pai Gow at the East Side Cannery or downtown (California, and Main Street Station, which are Boyd properties.) Sometimes I play Baccarat at Palace Station, and pretend I'm in Macau.

Quote: Paigowdan

and sometimes play some video Keno

Isn't that a 12 percent house edge or something?
Macau? Sic Bo and the three sixes bet repeating three times is what reminds me of Macau, the film.

I wonder ...

Do most casino executives gamble, or not?

It seems to me that Wynn's attitude is "only losers gamble."

How does he feel about the top men / women in his organization gambling?

Clearly, anyone with a clue understands the negative expectation of casino gambling, in the long run, and an argument could easily be made that if an exec hasn't figured that out and acted accordingly, "we don't need him."

FWIW, I made the most money gambling by buying MGM and LVS stock low, and selling high.

With a degree in Accounting, you won't be able to put that fresh face into a casino as a first job. You'll need experience first. Go to the normal job fairs, and pick up a job with E&Y, Deloitte, PwC, or KPM. That gives you the opportunity to network and see what you like. The big accounting firms will use you and abuse you, but you will be doing alot of things in alot of different roles for alot of companies. I can tell you from experience that almost all good accountants in senior positions with youth on their side that I see in the industry (and as a consultant who works with accountants every day, I've been to many many companies) started at one of the big four. So, that's my advice: get a job at one of the big four, get abuses, network, and settle down with what you like.

There are plenty of great jobs in accounting that doesn't involve a casino. The cool thing (if there is anything cool) about being an accountant is that your job is portable across industries. If you like financial services, you can start there and go easily into more boring insurance, or you can branch out to the indsutry of your choice, and that includes gaming.

I've worked for gaming before (writing financial reports), and it isn't illustrious. It's fun to see the numbers mind you, but you aren't close to the cash or to the excitement. And other posters are right -- you won't be able to play in the same house that you work at.

Quote: MrV

It seems to me that Wynn's attitude is "only losers gamble."

I understand that in Mob Days and a bit afterward all the surveillance men, shift managers and other vulnerable spots were staffed by Mormons because they did not gamble. Their religion allowed them to work in a casino but not gamble. Therefore they were considered reliable.

Quote: Paigowdan

...and sometimes video Keno

Quote: FleaStiff

Isn't that a 12 percent house edge or something?

Yup. $1 Keno at that, seven spots. WTH, if it's here and there. And so what, so as long as it's fun.
A Big Mac has xx grams of fats, yyyy calories, and zz grams of triglicerides, etc. I succumb to a Big Mac or a McRib Sandwich (LORD knows what's in that!) every once in a while. Yummie. Guilty as charged....I know the math and the calories, but I don't always subscribe to the Vegetarian Way of gambling.

Macau? Sic Bo and the three sixes bet repeating three times is what reminds me of Macau, the film.

Find the IMDB link to that film, we need to redo a list of gooood gambling films, the definitive list...

Quote: Paigowdan

The LAST thing you want to do at a table is cause a problem and say, "Well! I'm a dealer or floorman at such-and-such casino, and let me tell you...yada yada yada...." .

On the dealer forums, Vegas dealers constantly
complain about floorman from other casinos
giving them a hard time. And thats exactly
what they say, I'm a supervisor at such and such
casino and we don't tolerate this or that. They
never seem to get in trouble, they come back
again and again and harass dealers.

I read awhile back a post by a dealer who told
a player he had to hit the back wall when
throwing the dice and the player said he didn't
know if he could. The dealer told him 'Heck,
my five year old can hit the back wall, I'm sure
you can do it'. The player cashed out, told the
shift manager what the dealer had said, and
the dealer was fired on the spot. Is that possible,
or is he making it up.

No, they get into trouble. And a lot of them have not figured it out.
Sure, some may try some grand-standing and showing-up of younger dealers, and get told, "you may be a floorman - but you ain't a floorman here, - and this ain't 'such-and-such' place." Then the real floorman comes over to announce that he's actually the floorman here, and it's his rules that are in effect.
Tell a dealer you've been a floorman for 40 years and you'll be told - "there's a reason for that."
And a lot of calls have been made to their bosses - which is the reason why they are floormen, - and not shift managers or casino managers. You will NEVER see a shift manager or TDG make a noisy stink at tables around town.
Believe me, if you're in this business for 40 years, and still a floorman at a $5 house, you really can't pull any weight, you're just posturing. It's like being in the Army for 40 years - and you're a staff sargeant.
There's a reason for it: you're being punished for behavior: openly branded "NOT executive material - never will be."

As for job security, you can be called into the office and fired for being a Catholic boy on a sunny day. For wearing a shoe the size of 9D. For having brown hair. For "I don't like the way you look." For, "I have it in for you." Of course, other technical reasons are cited on the termination form.
If you have an attitude problem, if you're frequently late or unreliable, if you make a lot of mistakes, you're in great danger.
If you're a competent Saint, neither are you totally safe. Unless you have $17,000 in checking, with more coming in.
You walk into work one day, and there are other people as your new coworkers, and no one says anything. Don't even look up.
It may be writing on the wall that's meant for you, too.
Being a career floorman or dealer at a $5 house is like being a career cab driver; it ain't Caesars. You got a one-bedroom apartment or a roommate you can't stand, a 7 year old car giving you trouble, or a new car that you're sweating the payments on, and when you get tapped off the game to "go to the office," you panic, you just shit.
Trust me, the last thing a dealer or floorman needs to do is cause ANY trouble at any other casino. They become "stuck" dealers or floormen - Louie DePalma of Taxi, for life in this business.

Quote: Paigowdan

..I know the math and the calories, but I don't always subscribe to the Vegetarian Way of gambling.

LOL. That is probably the way to live! Which is why side bets survive: "Its only a buck" is a good attitude to have sometimes.

>>>Macau? Sic Bo and the three sixes bet repeating three times is what reminds me of Macau, the film.

>Find the IMDB link to that film, we need to redo a list of good gambling films, the definitive list...

One hit of a Trip Six pays 180 to 1 and has a 16.80 percent house edge.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044863/
Jane Russell as sultry and larcenous torch singer including One For My Baby.
Gloria Grahame of In a Lonely Place fame so hated Howard Hughes she is said to have over acted in the film to spite him and had told her Director-Husband she would waive alimony if he got her out of her loan-out obligation to do the film.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's like being in the Army for 40 years - and you're a staff sargeant.

The military is all about education now. You'll
never be an officer without a college degree,
and the more degrees you add, the higher
your rank will get. My son is adding a second
masters degree and will be a colonel soon.

Quote: EvenBob

The military is all about education now. You'll
never be an officer without a college degree,
and the more degrees you add, the higher
your rank will get. My son is adding a second
masters degree and will be a colonel soon.

And rising in this business, a college degree helps. UNLV has some good graduate programs in gaming/hospitality.

Bob, - excellent. I salute him and you, mean it. I was in the serice for six years, Army Field Artillery (13E), no regrets.

For either a sargeant or dealer, you'd think they seek out education and disciplined professional behavior, so they can rise to become a colonel or Shift Manager. Not for many, though. People in gaming, like in any other field, fall into minimal compliance "why bother to advance" mode.

I got my couch, my TV, my bottle, and some Doritoes when I get home, people say, and it's the same thing every day for too many people. "Go back to college?" "Gamble less, drink less, go out less, and cause less problems? - and study more? On my own time?"

Naah.....

And people will clock out and go home, to watch re-runs to Taxi, with Danny Devito ranting as Louie DePalma, and not see themselves. "Alex - you're in Cab #3 - and Frank - you're dealing BJ on BJ #7....."

Personally, I got scared....Forget about trying to get new games out....

Quote: Paigowdan

And rising in this business, a college degree helps. UNLV has some good graduate programs in gaming/hospitality.

One Vegas blogger left college during the first break and returned to his sales job in a hobby shop then wound up as a Vegas bartender and later a Vegas bellhop.
People who wind up as bell hops, cocktail waitresses, blackjack dealers and maids might make great executives, but nobody will ever find out.

True - but it's up to them to sell themselves, and to make themselves desirable. They don't stick it out, they don't get there.
Even without official papers, people can start businesses, patent ideas, write movie scripts on speculation on their PC's, play music in the garage or basement, etc.

EZ Pai Gow started out on a note pad, a deck of cards, and a TI calculator on my kitchen table four years ago. How I nursed it from there was a ton of work, while I DID have such a job, dealing. I missed a lot of re-runs.