AnonPlayer
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January 16th, 2024 at 3:32:03 PM permalink
I'll start by stating that I believe most online casinos are legit, as they don't need to cheat to profit.

That said, I've been playing roulette (RNG from a well-known software company, not a wheel) at a reasonably well-known crypto casino for the last few months and I've seen a number of improbable re than I've ever seen playing on other sites or playing physically.

Examples:
I've seen First dozen hit 12 times in a row and 13 times in a row.
I've seen 0 hit 4 times in a row and 5 times in a row.
I've seen a dozen go 30 times without being hit.

Any one of these, I could write off as improbable, but possible. However, given I only play a few hours a week and have only been playing a few months, something seems off that I would have experienced all of these events.

Proving the game is influenced would be next to impossible. Have you ever run into this type of situation? If so, what did you do? I really don't want to stop playing at the site, as it's easy to navigate, good interface, quick payouts, etc... but I also want a fair game.
DRich
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January 16th, 2024 at 5:28:56 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

I'll start by stating that I believe most online casinos are legit, as they don't need to cheat to profit.



Wow, I assume just the opposite.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
heatmap
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January 16th, 2024 at 5:48:25 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AnonPlayer

I'll start by stating that I believe most online casinos are legit, as they don't need to cheat to profit.



Wow, I assume just the opposite.
link to original post



heatmap
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January 16th, 2024 at 6:04:28 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

I really don't want to stop playing at the site, as it's easy to navigate, good interface, quick payouts, etc... but I also want a fair game.
link to original post



i dont want you to take this as mean or anything but as soon as i saw this i forgot about all the stuff you said before because it must not have been that bad?
EvenBob
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January 16th, 2024 at 6:41:38 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

I'll start by stating that I believe most online casinos are legit, as they don't need to cheat to profit.

That said, I've been playing roulette (RNG from a well-known software company, not a wheel) at a reasonably well-known crypto casino for the last few months and I've seen a number of improbable re than I've ever seen playing on other sites or playing physically.

Examples:
I've seen First dozen hit 12 times in a row and 13 times in a row.
I've seen 0 hit 4 times in a row and 5 times in a row.
I've seen a dozen go 30 times without being hit.

Any one of these, I could write off as improbable, but possible. However, given I only play a few hours a week and have only been playing a few months, something seems off that I would have experienced all of these events.
link to original post



This is your first clue that an RNG is cheating when you see improbable things happen on a regular basis. I've been playing roulette for almost 20 years on a daily basis and the three examples you give are extreme. A dozen hitting 12 times in a row, I've seen eight or nine in a row but that is rare. The zero hitting four or five times in a row, I've seen that happen on a double zero wheel but it's once in a blue moon. A dozen going 30 times in a row without being hit, never seen it. 20 times in a row is not uncommon, I've never seen 25 in a row. If these kind of things are happening regularly and you're only playing part-time, they're screwing with you. I've seen things happen on rng's that make me laugh out loud because they are so ridiculous.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
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January 16th, 2024 at 7:57:49 PM permalink
The issue is that even with a fully random wheel those very things can happen in those very orders and it would never be questioned all things can happen in random and patterns exist all the time

Just like with a card game such as poker and if someone is a card mechanic and can deal people certain cards even though they may be cheating at that moment it is also true that somewhere in the world a card shuffler has randomly produced that sequence as well

Or magnetic dice, someone somewhere has thrown that very combination of dice into a street or felt
Slotenthusiast
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January 16th, 2024 at 9:25:48 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AnonPlayer

I'll start by stating that I believe most online casinos are legit, as they don't need to cheat to profit.



Wow, I assume just the opposite.
link to original post



Most online casinos are regulated by the Kankakee Band of Toilet Paper Rolls. No worries!
AnonPlayer
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January 16th, 2024 at 9:36:52 PM permalink
Thanks. I've noted the same as compared to physical wheels in actual, decent casinos. I've taken screenshots of some of these and am keeping a record.

I'm new to the online thing, so don't know all the details, but maybe someone here can tell me:

When an online casino licenses their game software from one of the major producers, would they have any ability to alter the randomness in some way? I would assume there would be a RNG bundled that they wouldn't easily be able to change. I doubt the software itself is crooked, as it is very widely used and someone would have caught them out by now if it were rigged in the house favor.
Dieter
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January 16th, 2024 at 9:55:17 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

Thanks. I've noted the same as compared to physical wheels in actual, decent casinos. I've taken screenshots of some of these and am keeping a record.

I'm new to the online thing, so don't know all the details, but maybe someone here can tell me:

When an online casino licenses their game software from one of the major producers, would they have any ability to alter the randomness in some way? I would assume there would be a RNG bundled that they wouldn't easily be able to change. I doubt the software itself is crooked, as it is very widely used and someone would have caught them out by now if it were rigged in the house favor.
link to original post



That sounds like a matter for the gaming control authority for the controlling jurisdiction.

The easiest way to cheat a player is to refuse payment. Rigging games is harder, and might not work better.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Krispy519
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January 17th, 2024 at 2:32:34 AM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

I'll start by stating that I believe most online casinos are legit, as they don't need to cheat to profit.

That said, I've been playing roulette (RNG from a well-known software company, not a wheel) at a reasonably well-known crypto casino for the last few months and I've seen a number of improbable re than I've ever seen playing on other sites or playing physically.

Examples:
I've seen First dozen hit 12 times in a row and 13 times in a row.
I've seen 0 hit 4 times in a row and 5 times in a row.
I've seen a dozen go 30 times without being hit.

Any one of these, I could write off as improbable, but possible. However, given I only play a few hours a week and have only been playing a few months, something seems off that I would have experienced all of these events.

Proving the game is influenced would be next to impossible. Have you ever run into this type of situation? If so, what did you do? I really don't want to stop playing at the site, as it's easy to navigate, good interface, quick payouts, etc... but I also want a fair game.
link to original post



Roulette was my favourite game to play. Alas, after joining here and learning a great deal about betting systems, odds, bonuses and Return To Player, I can no longer play Roulette. No betting systems can't defeat the House Edge, so your left with just luck.

If you do enjoy the game, I have a few tips that may help you decrease the House Edge:

At ~1.35% your best odds is offered in French Roulette with La Partage Rule. The Partage rule only effects outside bets that pay 1 to 1 like Red/Black Even/Odd High/Low. If you lose a bet on those to a 0, you only lose half your bet. Otherwise it's like a European Roulette with just a single 0 and a House Edge of ~2.7%. This version Is not easy to find but I have seen it offered online.

The next best House Edge in Roulette is found in a game called Double Bonus Spin Roulette. It ranges widely from 1.94% for a single number bet to 14.28% betting on the Bonus section. The Wizard here has done an excellent summary for each kind of bet available, link below:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/double-bonus-spin-roulette/

Things to stay away from are wheels with 0 an 00 as that give a House Edge of 5.26%. Set your money on fire before playing a triple zero wheel at a 7.69% House Edge.

There are many versions of "Lucky Multiplier" for single number bets the House Edge is 2.88%. Another variant is Double Ball Roulette, but it still has a House Edge of 2.7%. I found none that offer a better House Edge than just plain single zero roulette.

Best of Luck
EvenBob
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January 17th, 2024 at 10:08:18 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

The issue is that even with a fully random wheel those very things can happen in those very orders and it would never be questioned all things can happen in random and patterns exist all the time
link to original post



It's not that they can or cannot happen on an RNG, it's the frequency with which they happen. On a real wheel spun by a real person odd things will happen once in awhile, usually once in a great while. On an RNG odd things are common everyday occurrences, every hour occurrences, sometimes they happen back-to-back to back and you never ever see that on a human Spun Wheel.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AnonPlayer
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January 17th, 2024 at 12:23:30 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: heatmap

The issue is that even with a fully random wheel those very things can happen in those very orders and it would never be questioned all things can happen in random and patterns exist all the time
link to original post



It's not that they can or cannot happen on an RNG, it's the frequency with which they happen. On a real wheel spun by a real person odd things will happen once in awhile, usually once in a great while. On an RNG odd things are common everyday occurrences, every hour occurrences, sometimes they happen back-to-back to back and you never ever see that on a human Spun Wheel.
link to original post




Yes, this exactly. Probability being what it is, weird things will happen eventually... but some things should be extremely rare events. When you see multiple "1 in a billion" events happen in 10000 spins, there's something off.

Someone commented about reporting to the gaming commission... the license for the casino in question is in an area of the world where I don't trust the license grantor, i.e., not Malta. I don't want to say more because I have no proof that they're cheating and I don't want to slander them. I can only say that the behavior I've seen is highly suspect.
EvenBob
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January 17th, 2024 at 12:47:34 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer



Someone commented about reporting to the gaming commission...
link to original post



Will do you no good, forget about it. If they ever answer you they will come back and say they tested it and it's within the parameters of randomness. Which it is, but not any kind of Randomness that applies in the real world. Plus they're always on the side of the casino because that's where they make their money. All you can do is avoid those machines which is what I do. The only thing I trust is live dealer wheels and it's all I play.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
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January 17th, 2024 at 12:58:22 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: heatmap

The issue is that even with a fully random wheel those very things can happen in those very orders and it would never be questioned all things can happen in random and patterns exist all the time
link to original post



It's not that they can or cannot happen on an RNG, it's the frequency with which they happen. On a real wheel spun by a real person odd things will happen once in awhile, usually once in a great while. On an RNG odd things are common everyday occurrences, every hour occurrences, sometimes they happen back-to-back to back and you never ever see that on a human Spun Wheel.
link to original post




Yes, this exactly. Probability being what it is, weird things will happen eventually... but some things should be extremely rare events. When you see multiple "1 in a billion" events happen in 10000 spins, there's something off.

Someone commented about reporting to the gaming commission... the license for the casino in question is in an area of the world where I don't trust the license grantor, i.e., not Malta. I don't want to say more because I have no proof that they're cheating and I don't want to slander them. I can only say that the behavior I've seen is highly suspect.
link to original post



i disagree. if anything is fully random there should never be specific periods between any results. random means lack of pattern and what you are claiming is that you "should" and "shouldnt" be seeing things when in fact you are going to see all of the patterns in any order and repeated however many times it will happen.

I can tell you that ive almost been kicked out of my gaming commision simply for asking questions like this and its because they know the proper testing has been done and its stupid to even ask or bring it up to anyone in a casino that it may be unfair

im also (i think) the first person on this website to actually show a manual for a rigged casino that is frequently used over seas
EvenBob
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January 17th, 2024 at 1:34:54 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap



i disagree. if anything is fully random there should never be specific periods between any results. random means lack of pattern and what you are claiming is that you "should" and "shouldnt" be seeing things when in fact you are going to see all of the patterns in any order and repeated however many times it will happen.

link to original post



But they aren't fully random, they just appear to be random. They're run by an algorithm that if you're winning it will choose to defeat you with scenarios of outcomes that only happen once in a blue moon on a regular wheel but happened all the time on an RNG. I've told this story before, I remember when they first put in this huge RNG outfit in a local casino. You had six player stations and a huge screen with a robot woman spinning a wheel. All the regular players were excited to play it and two weeks later there was nobody playing it. Everybody was seeing things happen with the outcomes that you never see happen on a live dealer wheel. Sure you're going to see three zeros in a row sometimes but not every time you play a session. Everybody was disgusted with it because it was so obviously cheating and it lasted about 3 months before they pulled it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
SOOPOO
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January 17th, 2024 at 1:53:55 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: heatmap

The issue is that even with a fully random wheel those very things can happen in those very orders and it would never be questioned all things can happen in random and patterns exist all the time
link to original post



It's not that they can or cannot happen on an RNG, it's the frequency with which they happen. On a real wheel spun by a real person odd things will happen once in awhile, usually once in a great while. On an RNG odd things are common everyday occurrences, every hour occurrences, sometimes they happen back-to-back to back and you never ever see that on a human Spun Wheel.
link to original post




Yes, this exactly. Probability being what it is, weird things will happen eventually... but some things should be extremely rare events. When you see multiple "1 in a billion" events happen in 10000 spins, there's something off.

Someone commented about reporting to the gaming commission... the license for the casino in question is in an area of the world where I don't trust the license grantor, i.e., not Malta. I don't want to say more because I have no proof that they're cheating and I don't want to slander them. I can only say that the behavior I've seen is highly suspect.
link to original post



Itís possible you are Ďseeingí things that are just normal events. But our weak human brains want to think itís something else.

I wrote down the last 6 numbers spun at local roulette wheel.

2, 17, 28, 36, 5, 12.

The chance of that happening is less than 1 in THREE BILLION.
Do you think the wheel is cheating in some fashion? I mean, come on, I just saw a less than 1 in THREE BILLION event!?!
Dieter
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January 17th, 2024 at 2:42:38 PM permalink
(trimmed)
Quote: AnonPlayer


Someone commented about reporting to the gaming commission... the license for the casino in question is in an area of the world where I don't trust the license grantor, i.e., not Malta. I don't want to say more because I have no proof that they're cheating and I don't want to slander them. I can only say that the behavior I've seen is highly suspect.
link to original post



The last questionable gaming commission I looked up says they hope to have a complaint resolution process established in the first half of this year. This is a major improvement; the last time I looked into their rules (a few years ago), they didn't have commissioners appointed, and were hoping to get around to that "soon".

People wonder why I'm cynical.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AnonPlayer
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January 17th, 2024 at 4:41:03 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AnonPlayer

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: heatmap

The issue is that even with a fully random wheel those very things can happen in those very orders and it would never be questioned all things can happen in random and patterns exist all the time
link to original post



It's not that they can or cannot happen on an RNG, it's the frequency with which they happen. On a real wheel spun by a real person odd things will happen once in awhile, usually once in a great while. On an RNG odd things are common everyday occurrences, every hour occurrences, sometimes they happen back-to-back to back and you never ever see that on a human Spun Wheel.
link to original post




Yes, this exactly. Probability being what it is, weird things will happen eventually... but some things should be extremely rare events. When you see multiple "1 in a billion" events happen in 10000 spins, there's something off.

Someone commented about reporting to the gaming commission... the license for the casino in question is in an area of the world where I don't trust the license grantor, i.e., not Malta. I don't want to say more because I have no proof that they're cheating and I don't want to slander them. I can only say that the behavior I've seen is highly suspect.
link to original post



Itís possible you are Ďseeingí things that are just normal events. But our weak human brains want to think itís something else.

I wrote down the last 6 numbers spun at local roulette wheel.

2, 17, 28, 36, 5, 12.

The chance of that happening is less than 1 in THREE BILLION.
Do you think the wheel is cheating in some fashion? I mean, come on, I just saw a less than 1 in THREE BILLION event!?!
link to original post




Right. And in an infinitely long string of spins, that same string will occur an infinite number of times. But we're talking about human time spans and a very limited number of spins that can happen per day in a game, even when automated. So, what happens when that exact string comes up again in your next 3 play sessions? You'd start to become a bit suspicious.
EvenBob
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January 17th, 2024 at 5:01:52 PM permalink
Quote: AnonPlayer


Right. And in an infinitely long string of spins, that same string will occur an infinite number of times. But we're talking about human time spans and a very limited number of spins that can happen per day in a game, even when automated. So, what happens when that exact string comes up again in your next 3 play sessions? You'd start to become a bit suspicious.
link to original post



Any experienced roulette player knows exactly what you're talking about. If you play for a while and I'm talking thousands of spins you get a feel for the game and when you start to see things on a regular basis happening on an RNG that you don't see on a human wheel you do start to get suspicious. When you see one in a billion strings of numbers that happen all the time it's not right. Roulette is a very repetitive game you see the same things over and over and over. The common things. When you start seeing the uncommon outcomes over and over and over something's wrong. If you're not an experienced player you won't even notice because you're not supposed to. But experienced players avoid the RNG roulette machines like the plague. And by machines I mean any kind of outfit that is run by an RNG. Many of them in a brick and mortar casino and especially online are registered as slot machines so they're set up to pay off just like a slot machine but they don't tell you that. If you're inexperienced you think you're playing on a legit roulette wheel. Legally they're not required to tell you anything.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
SOOPOO
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January 17th, 2024 at 5:49:23 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AnonPlayer


Right. And in an infinitely long string of spins, that same string will occur an infinite number of times. But we're talking about human time spans and a very limited number of spins that can happen per day in a game, even when automated. So, what happens when that exact string comes up again in your next 3 play sessions? You'd start to become a bit suspicious.
link to original post



Any experienced roulette player knows exactly what you're talking about. If you play for a while and I'm talking thousands of spins you get a feel for the game and when you start to see things on a regular basis happening on an RNG that you don't see on a human wheel you do start to get suspicious. When you see one in a billion strings of numbers that happen all the time it's not right. Roulette is a very repetitive game you see the same things over and over and over. The common things. When you start seeing the uncommon outcomes over and over and over something's wrong. If you're not an experienced player you won't even notice because you're not supposed to. But experienced players avoid the RNG roulette machines like the plague. And by machines I mean any kind of outfit that is run by an RNG. Many of them in a brick and mortar casino and especially online are registered as slot machines so they're set up to pay off just like a slot machine but they don't tell you that. If you're inexperienced you think you're playing on a legit roulette wheel. Legally they're not required to tell you anything.
link to original post



Is 1,2,3,4,5 an uncommon outcome?
How about 2,4,6,8,10?
12,23,12,23,12?
10,9,8,7,6?
36,31,26,21,16?
1,1,2,3,5?
3,1,4,1,5?
5,10,15,20,25?

I can list literally millions of outcomes that are Ďuncommoní.

In double zero roulette the house will, without cheating, consistently suck around 5% of what you are betting away from you. Iím not saying they donít cheat, but I AM saying they donít need to.
Sandybestdog
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January 18th, 2024 at 12:25:54 PM permalink
I have played the Ballys and IGT roulette machines in casinoís extensively. No I donít like playing roulette, and no I donít think in the long run any betting system will win, I had a reason for playing them. While Iím not going to delve into conspiracy theories of cheating, I absolutely feel that these are not fair and random. Also the IGT blackjack that is on video poker machines is not a fair game. I donít have any solid proof but that wouldnít really matter cause nobody would care. If I recorded multiple instances of black not coming up 15 spins in a row in say only 200 spins, the gaming commission wouldnít care and frankly neither would the average gambler. They would keep playing even if you made a solid case that the machines are not fair.

By my calculation a 1 in 10 chance of one of the even money bets not coming up on a double zero wheel is 1 in 613. 12 is 2213 to 1, 15 is 15181 and 18 is 104127. Since youíre looking at all 3 even bets I guess you would have to multiply by 3 the number of spins you are tracking for sample size.
Just yesterday I saw two 12 in a rows in only about 100 spins. I donít even take pictures of the 10 and 12 streaks anymore. But if anyone is interested I could post more than a dozen photos of streaks of 14, 15 and more. Depending on how much you play these are once in a lifetime odds yet they are occurring almost every time I play. Of course itís always against you. The most Iíve ever won in a row is probably only 8.

Of course you can say well if there are those streaks so just alternate betting instead of getting caught in a streak against you. Ok thatís what I did one day. Within 3 spins of trying it, it went red black red black 10 spins in a row against me. It doesnít matter what you bet, these machines will never let you get more than 5 units ahead before they start losing multiple in a row against you.

For actual results, I kept records for awhile and I have many times run $50+k through these machines and 9/10 times I lose more than 5%, usually about 8%. Never, not even once have I had a winning session of 300+ spins. For those saying casinos donít need to cheat, they absolutely will. Itís not really even them, itís the manufacturers. The casinos donít even know.
EvenBob
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January 18th, 2024 at 12:47:35 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I have played the Ballys and IGT roulette machines in casinoís extensively. No I donít like playing roulette, and no I donít think in the long run any betting system will win, I had a reason for playing them. While Iím not going to delve into conspiracy theories of cheating, I absolutely feel that these are not fair and random. Also the IGT blackjack that is on video poker machines is not a fair game. I donít have any solid proof but that wouldnít really matter cause nobody would care. If I recorded multiple instances of black not coming up 15 spins in a row in say only 200 spins, the gaming commission wouldnít care and frankly neither would the average gambler. They would keep playing even if you made a solid case that the machines are not fair.

By my calculation a 1 in 10 chance of one of the even money bets not coming up on a double zero wheel is 1 in 613. 12 is 2213 to 1, 15 is 15181 and 18 is 104127. Since youíre looking at all 3 even bets I guess you would have to multiply by 3 the number of spins you are tracking for sample size.
Just yesterday I saw two 12 in a rows in only about 100 spins. I donít even take pictures of the 10 and 12 streaks anymore. But if anyone is interested I could post more than a dozen photos of streaks of 14, 15 and more. Depending on how much you play these are once in a lifetime odds yet they are occurring almost every time I play. Of course itís always against you. The most Iíve ever won in a row is probably only 8.

Of course you can say well if there are those streaks so just alternate betting instead of getting caught in a streak against you. Ok thatís what I did one day. Within 3 spins of trying it, it went red black red black 10 spins in a row against me. It doesnít matter what you bet, these machines will never let you get more than 5 units ahead before they start losing multiple in a row against you.

For actual results, I kept records for awhile and I have many times run $50+k through these machines and 9/10 times I lose more than 5%, usually about 8%. Never, not even once have I had a winning session of 300+ spins. For those saying casinos donít need to cheat, they absolutely will. Itís not really even them, itís the manufacturers. The casinos donít even know.
link to original post



I'm quoting your entire post because I agree with everything in it because I've seen it. Especially the part where if it's producing one kind of outcome and you bet with it or against it because it's logical you will immediately start to lose because that's how the algorithm is programmed. It's not that the casino is cheating or the manufacturer is cheating its that most of these machines are registered with the state as slot machines so they can behave just like a slot machine behaves. It's not meant to be fair or random, it's meant to take a certain percentage of your money. If you have any kind of experience playing roulette on a real random wheel in a very short time you will know that something is wrong with these machines. I first heard about this in 2008 when I was playing some of the new RNG machines and a casino employee who knew I played regular roulette asked me why I was doing that, didn't I know it was really a slot machine?

Now roulette 'experts' like Soopoo will chime in and give their 14 cents worth and say haha, you guys are full of it, haha. That's fine, let Mr Expert waste his money in those machines. We know better.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Sandybestdog
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January 18th, 2024 at 2:04:31 PM permalink
Yes I think that they are just programmed to hold about 8% and it doesnít matter how you bet or the size, itís just going to figure out how to hold that much. Now in fairness I was playing a stadium machine linked to a real wheel and saw 18 in a row, so it happens. But other than that I donít think Iíve seen more than 10 or 12 in a row. I was also playing baccarat once and saw 6 ties in a row.

Also these observations were from machines in a few different legal jurisdictions that you expect the machine to be fair (New Jersey, Pennsylvania etc). One thing that concerns me is if they are truly not RNG then what about the video poker? The games are on the same machine as the VP. I think itís well accepted that vp is a fair deal. If the roulette and blackjack arenít then how can you trust the video poker?
SOOPOO
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January 18th, 2024 at 2:29:17 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Sandybestdog

I have played the Ballys and IGT roulette machines in casinoís extensively. No I donít like playing roulette, and no I donít think in the long run any betting system will win, I had a reason for playing them. While Iím not going to delve into conspiracy theories of cheating, I absolutely feel that these are not fair and random. Also the IGT blackjack that is on video poker machines is not a fair game. I donít have any solid proof but that wouldnít really matter cause nobody would care. If I recorded multiple instances of black not coming up 15 spins in a row in say only 200 spins, the gaming commission wouldnít care and frankly neither would the average gambler. They would keep playing even if you made a solid case that the machines are not fair.

By my calculation a 1 in 10 chance of one of the even money bets not coming up on a double zero wheel is 1 in 613. 12 is 2213 to 1, 15 is 15181 and 18 is 104127. Since youíre looking at all 3 even bets I guess you would have to multiply by 3 the number of spins you are tracking for sample size.
Just yesterday I saw two 12 in a rows in only about 100 spins. I donít even take pictures of the 10 and 12 streaks anymore. But if anyone is interested I could post more than a dozen photos of streaks of 14, 15 and more. Depending on how much you play these are once in a lifetime odds yet they are occurring almost every time I play. Of course itís always against you. The most Iíve ever won in a row is probably only 8.

Of course you can say well if there are those streaks so just alternate betting instead of getting caught in a streak against you. Ok thatís what I did one day. Within 3 spins of trying it, it went red black red black 10 spins in a row against me. It doesnít matter what you bet, these machines will never let you get more than 5 units ahead before they start losing multiple in a row against you.

For actual results, I kept records for awhile and I have many times run $50+k through these machines and 9/10 times I lose more than 5%, usually about 8%. Never, not even once have I had a winning session of 300+ spins. For those saying casinos donít need to cheat, they absolutely will. Itís not really even them, itís the manufacturers. The casinos donít even know.
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I'm quoting your entire post because I agree with everything in it because I've seen it. Especially the part where if it's producing one kind of outcome and you bet with it or against it because it's logical you will immediately start to lose because that's how the algorithm is programmed. It's not that the casino is cheating or the manufacturer is cheating its that most of these machines are registered with the state as slot machines so they can behave just like a slot machine behaves. It's not meant to be fair or random, it's meant to take a certain percentage of your money. If you have any kind of experience playing roulette on a real random wheel in a very short time you will know that something is wrong with these machines. I first heard about this in 2008 when I was playing some of the new RNG machines and a casino employee who knew I played regular roulette asked me why I was doing that, didn't I know it was really a slot machine?

Now roulette 'experts' like Soopoo will chime in and give their 14 cents worth and say haha, you guys are full of it, haha. That's fine, let Mr Expert waste his money in those machines. We know better.
link to original post



Thatís a personal insult implying I would ever play roulette on line for real money.

Iím asking the two of you, if you are convinced the game is rigged against you, why do you play?

I guess Iíd also ask if it wasnít rigged against you but still had the high house edge, why do you play?
EvenBob
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January 18th, 2024 at 2:35:36 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO



Iím asking the two of you, if you are convinced the game is rigged against you, why do you play?

I guess Iíd also ask if it wasnít rigged against you but still had the high house edge, why do you play?
link to original post



Where did you get the impression that I play these machines for real money when I've been talking against them on this forum for years. I quit playing them for real money 15 years ago when I found out they were rigged. Do you even read my posts, I'm starting to doubt it. If you were you would never ask such a ridiculous question. I only ever ever ever ever ever play wheels spun by a living person.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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January 18th, 2024 at 2:38:52 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

Yes I think that they are just programmed to hold about 8% and it doesnít matter how you bet or the size, itís just going to figure out how to hold that much. Now in fairness I was playing a stadium machine linked to a real wheel and saw 18 in a row, so it happens. But other than that I donít think Iíve seen more than 10 or 12 in a row. I was also playing baccarat once and saw 6 ties in a row.

Also these observations were from machines in a few different legal jurisdictions that you expect the machine to be fair (New Jersey, Pennsylvania etc). One thing that concerns me is if they are truly not RNG then what about the video poker? The games are on the same machine as the VP. I think itís well accepted that vp is a fair deal. If the roulette and blackjack arenít then how can you trust the video poker?
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I've never played video poker but I've always got the impression that they can be beaten because people play them and play them and play them until the machine has to give up a win. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it. It has to give up a jackpot to somebody, and if you play it long enough at the right time it's going to be you sometimes. I've seen people win big money on these roulette machines, I'm talking a couple thousand dollars. But they just happen to be there at the right time, they just walk up put in $100 make a bunch of bets and they win. Somebody has to win if it's a slot machine and it just happened to be them.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
heatmap
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January 18th, 2024 at 3:36:52 PM permalink
some pre requisites to my story - live stadium roulette (sands bethlehem) im in a random seat looking at a monitor and cant see the actual wheel up close.

i quit playing roulette in life when i thought i saw a ball settle into a hole and then about a second OR MORE later it popped out of of the hole and went all the way to the other side of the wheel in an arc.

i immediately popped up out of my seat and yelled at the dealer and he was puzzled because he wasnt paying attention to the wheel ball or anything and i asked him if he saw the last spin. he did not.

it was the last day i ever played roulette in what i would consider to be a responsible fashion. i now go up to a wheel about MAYBE once a year with 20 dollars and thats it.
Sandybestdog
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January 19th, 2024 at 1:47:02 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO


Thatís a personal insult implying I would ever play roulette on line for real money.

Iím asking the two of you, if you are convinced the game is rigged against you, why do you play?

I guess Iíd also ask if it wasnít rigged against you but still had the high house edge, why do you play?
link to original post

I had my reasons for playing it. Some places let you use your freeplay on them.

But yes bottom line is I should just avoid them which is pretty much what I've been doing
AxelWolf
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January 19th, 2024 at 3:25:21 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: SOOPOO


Thatís a personal insult implying I would ever play roulette on line for real money.

Iím asking the two of you, if you are convinced the game is rigged against you, why do you play?

I guess Iíd also ask if it wasnít rigged against you but still had the high house edge, why do you play?
link to original post

I had my reasons for playing it. Some places let you use your freeplay on them.

But yes bottom line is I should just avoid them which is pretty much what I've been doing
link to original post

Some places do allow you to use FP on them, nice attempt at some cover. But when you say "I have many times run $50+k through these machines" it's apparent to anyone with a little understanding to realize what's going on.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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January 19th, 2024 at 7:24:41 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I have played the Ballys and IGT roulette machines in casinoís extensively. No I donít like playing roulette, and no I donít think in the long run any betting system will win, I had a reason for playing them. While Iím not going to delve into conspiracy theories of cheating, I absolutely feel that these are not fair and random. Also the IGT blackjack that is on video poker machines is not a fair game. I donít have any solid proof but that wouldnít really matter cause nobody would care. If I recorded multiple instances of black not coming up 15 spins in a row in say only 200 spins, the gaming commission wouldnít care and frankly neither would the average gambler. They would keep playing even if you made a solid case that the machines are not fair.

By my calculation a 1 in 10 chance of one of the even money bets not coming up on a double zero wheel is 1 in 613. 12 is 2213 to 1, 15 is 15181 and 18 is 104127. Since youíre looking at all 3 even bets I guess you would have to multiply by 3 the number of spins you are tracking for sample size.
Just yesterday I saw two 12 in a rows in only about 100 spins. I donít even take pictures of the 10 and 12 streaks anymore. But if anyone is interested I could post more than a dozen photos of streaks of 14, 15 and more. Depending on how much you play these are once in a lifetime odds yet they are occurring almost every time I play. Of course itís always against you. The most Iíve ever won in a row is probably only 8.

Of course you can say well if there are those streaks so just alternate betting instead of getting caught in a streak against you. Ok thatís what I did one day. Within 3 spins of trying it, it went red black red black 10 spins in a row against me. It doesnít matter what you bet, these machines will never let you get more than 5 units ahead before they start losing multiple in a row against you.

For actual results, I kept records for awhile and I have many times run $50+k through these machines and 9/10 times I lose more than 5%, usually about 8%. Never, not even once have I had a winning session of 300+ spins. For those saying casinos donít need to cheat, they absolutely will. Itís not really even them, itís the manufacturers. The casinos donít even know.
link to original post



Let's assume that you're 100% correct for a second.

If the machine is gaffed to have a higher effective House Edge than what should be (by virtue of not being random), then shouldn't you be able to wait for someone to play it, bet substantially less than they do (on the opposite color/1-18;19-36/even;odd and just print money? Do you think it would start raining zeroes at a significantly greater than expected rate if you did? Could you fade the zeroes anyway?

It just seems to me that if you have a game that is definitely gaffed (as you claim) and has a reasonably low natural house edge, but also allows two players to do totally opposite things (such that one must win and one must lose), there would have to be an advantage somewhere for the small bettor.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
billryan
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January 19th, 2024 at 7:52:13 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

Yes I think that they are just programmed to hold about 8% and it doesnít matter how you bet or the size, itís just going to figure out how to hold that much. Now in fairness I was playing a stadium machine linked to a real wheel and saw 18 in a row, so it happens. But other than that I donít think Iíve seen more than 10 or 12 in a row. I was also playing baccarat once and saw 6 ties in a row.

Also these observations were from machines in a few different legal jurisdictions that you expect the machine to be fair (New Jersey, Pennsylvania etc). One thing that concerns me is if they are truly not RNG then what about the video poker? The games are on the same machine as the VP. I think itís well accepted that vp is a fair deal. If the roulette and blackjack arenít then how can you trust the video poker?
link to original post




Do you think the program takes 8% from the total bet, or does it take 8% from each individual bettor?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AxelWolf
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January 19th, 2024 at 7:54:13 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: Sandybestdog

I have played the Ballys and IGT roulette machines in casinoís extensively. No I donít like playing roulette, and no I donít think in the long run any betting system will win, I had a reason for playing them. While Iím not going to delve into conspiracy theories of cheating, I absolutely feel that these are not fair and random. Also the IGT blackjack that is on video poker machines is not a fair game. I donít have any solid proof but that wouldnít really matter cause nobody would care. If I recorded multiple instances of black not coming up 15 spins in a row in say only 200 spins, the gaming commission wouldnít care and frankly neither would the average gambler. They would keep playing even if you made a solid case that the machines are not fair.

By my calculation a 1 in 10 chance of one of the even money bets not coming up on a double zero wheel is 1 in 613. 12 is 2213 to 1, 15 is 15181 and 18 is 104127. Since youíre looking at all 3 even bets I guess you would have to multiply by 3 the number of spins you are tracking for sample size.
Just yesterday I saw two 12 in a rows in only about 100 spins. I donít even take pictures of the 10 and 12 streaks anymore. But if anyone is interested I could post more than a dozen photos of streaks of 14, 15 and more. Depending on how much you play these are once in a lifetime odds yet they are occurring almost every time I play. Of course itís always against you. The most Iíve ever won in a row is probably only 8.

Of course you can say well if there are those streaks so just alternate betting instead of getting caught in a streak against you. Ok thatís what I did one day. Within 3 spins of trying it, it went red black red black 10 spins in a row against me. It doesnít matter what you bet, these machines will never let you get more than 5 units ahead before they start losing multiple in a row against you.

For actual results, I kept records for awhile and I have many times run $50+k through these machines and 9/10 times I lose more than 5%, usually about 8%. Never, not even once have I had a winning session of 300+ spins. For those saying casinos donít need to cheat, they absolutely will. Itís not really even them, itís the manufacturers. The casinos donít even know.
link to original post



Let's assume that you're 100% correct for a second.

If the machine is gaffed to have a higher effective House Edge than what should be (by virtue of not being random), then shouldn't you be able to wait for someone to play it, bet substantially less than they do (on the opposite color/1-18;19-36/even;odd and just print money? Do you think it would start raining zeroes at a significantly greater than expected rate if you did? Could you fade the zeroes anyway?

It just seems to me that if you have a game that is definitely gaffed (as you claim) and has a reasonably low natural house edge, but also allows two players to do totally opposite things (such that one must win and one must lose), there would have to be an advantage somewhere for the small bettor.
link to original post

They are standalones.

Theoretically, if they were going to gaff something they could make it so no one ever has an Advantage no matter what the previous player did. Make player A lose 10% and player B 1%.

If he is consistently seeing statically rare events x red/black in a row then he should present that evidence to someone like Mike.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
EvenBob
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January 19th, 2024 at 8:15:16 AM permalink
One thing I did use the big tall green Bally roulette machines for was years ago my wife used to get comps in the mail on her card, sometimes it was $50 a week in slot play. She only went once a month but I went several times a week so she gave me her card and I would go to the roulette machine and bet on both red and black until I had the $50. Once in awhile I would get a zero but not very often. I would take the $50 home and give it to her. I don't know what they would have done to me if they caught me but I never worried about it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Sandybestdog
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January 19th, 2024 at 9:25:18 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: SOOPOO


Thatís a personal insult implying I would ever play roulette on line for real money.

Iím asking the two of you, if you are convinced the game is rigged against you, why do you play?

I guess Iíd also ask if it wasnít rigged against you but still had the high house edge, why do you play?
link to original post

I had my reasons for playing it. Some places let you use your freeplay on them.

But yes bottom line is I should just avoid them which is pretty much what I've been doing
link to original post

Some places do allow you to use FP on them, nice attempt at some cover. But when you say "I have many times run $50+k through these machines" it's apparent to anyone with a little understanding to realize what's going on.
link to original post

Well I donít need to come out and say it. I guess my regret is that I didnít just do a hedged strategy and guarantee a certain loss. But it isnít in my nature to surrender like that. Also the nature of these endeavors was such that I wanted to try to break even or have a big loss. I think thatís enough code for you.
Sandybestdog
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January 19th, 2024 at 9:45:47 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Mission146



Let's assume that you're 100% correct for a second.

If the machine is gaffed to have a higher effective House Edge than what should be (by virtue of not being random), then shouldn't you be able to wait for someone to play it, bet substantially less than they do (on the opposite color/1-18;19-36/even;odd and just print money? Do you think it would start raining zeroes at a significantly greater than expected rate if you did? Could you fade the zeroes anyway?

It just seems to me that if you have a game that is definitely gaffed (as you claim) and has a reasonably low natural house edge, but also allows two players to do totally opposite things (such that one must win and one must lose), there would have to be an advantage somewhere for the small bettor.
link to original post

They are standalones.

Theoretically, if they were going to gaff something they could make it so no one ever has an Advantage no matter what the previous player did. Make player A lose 10% and player B 1%.

If he is consistently seeing statically rare events x red/black in a row then he should present that evidence to someone like Mike.
link to original post

Quote: billryan



Do you think the program takes 8% from the total bet, or does it take 8% from each individual bettor?
link to original post

I donít know how it determines the actual hold, if it does. There isnít a point in thinking about the process too much. If the person before lost a whole bunch does the machine ďhave to pay out some to the next personĒ. I donít know. It would be interesting to see the coin in and out of a few of these.

The only way Iíve thought about how it could be exploited if it truly was gaffes would be to do a martingale but put $1 on the other side. Maybe that would trick the system. So it would go 1 red 1 black. Then 2 and 1, then 4 and 1. Red hits so then 1 on red and 2 on black. I donít really care to waste the time trying this out as Iím sure it wonít work. Also most machines only have a 1-100 bet limit. That only provides for a 7-8 loss progression which is totally normal and expected.
Sandybestdog
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January 19th, 2024 at 3:00:07 PM permalink
OK I went through my collection and put together a few pictures. These are just the 15 (15k to 1) 16, 17 and 18 (100k to 1 chance) ones. I have a dozen more of 14 and 13's. Below that is a couple of random ones like the same number coming up 5x in a row (79 million to one chance) and then a couple where over 28 spins an even bet only came up 4x.

Lastly is a pic of a 20 in a row (375K chance) I can't complain about that since it was a real wheel.





Mission146
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January 20th, 2024 at 7:20:26 AM permalink
Back in the day that I gambled purely recreationally, in the rare event I played Roulette, I did Black-29 four corners and one unit on Black-29 itself. That bottom picture is like a wet dream for that betting layout.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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