seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 12:01:29 AM permalink
Hey guys

( if this is the wrong place to ask this question please let me know )

I want to offer the following game and would like to know if it makes sense for a casino owner to offer this kind of game.

It will be a roulette wheel with no zero. A completely fair wheel. Players will only have the option to play the dozens or columns. In my experience, there are 2 types of dozen and column players

There is one type of players who bet on one dozen or column.
the payout is 2:1
for example with a bet of $100 he will get a payout of $300
I want to take 5% fee so the payout would be $285 instead of $300

the other type of player will bet on 2 dozens or columns.
the payout is 2:1
for example he bets $100 on 1st and 2nd dozen or column he is risking $200 to win $100
in this case I don't want to take a fee and the payout would be $300

Does this make sense or is it a losing proposition for a casino owner in the long run if most players are betting on 2 dozen or columns and only a few on one dozen or column?

Thank you and stay safe
AZDuffman
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February 25th, 2023 at 2:50:28 AM permalink
I see no point here. They can just keep betting the dozens. There is already a 5.25 edge in Roulette. Players who want a simple bet like this have Big 6.

It would be losing for the casino owner because they would have to pay you the royalty to get a slightly less house edge than they have in Roulette.

Sorry, don't see it happening.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
richodude
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February 25th, 2023 at 2:58:17 AM permalink
I'm no casino nor affialiated with any, but doesn't make a lot of sense actually. Commission on a fair game just seems way too obvious (maybe not to others) and unnecessary with the 0's already a staple of a roulette wheel. It's definitely a bad idea to charge a commission on bet A, and then nothing on bet B, for the simple reason that no one (smart at least) would play bet A. The casino would then not make money, and likely lose money to AP's betting until they hit positive variance. If a 5% commission were to be charged, it wouldn't always be simple or possible math. Someone betting 25$ who wins even money would need to pay a $1.25 commission? More complex bets will slow the game down more.

I like the idea, I just don't think it works with roulette
Dieter
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February 25th, 2023 at 4:44:50 AM permalink
Roulette without zeroes has been around for a while.
The usual way to implement it is to reduce the payout odds on all bets - straight betting on a number might pay 30:1 or 25:1, with other bets similarly shortened.

19:20 is a pain on a table, and tallying commissions is a pain on a table.

Sorry. Best of luck.
May the cards fall in your favor.
seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 4:49:26 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I see no point here. They can just keep betting the dozens. There is already a 5.25 edge in Roulette. Players who want a simple bet like this have Big 6.

It would be losing for the casino owner because they would have to pay you the royalty to get a slightly less house edge than they have in Roulette.

Sorry, don't see it happening.
link to original post



I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
>It will be a roulette wheel with no zero. A completely fair wheel.<

I am also not talking about a new game I want to sell to casino owners. I want to offer this game on my own online casino which I want to create in the future.

thanks for your input
seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 4:59:35 AM permalink
Quote: richodude

I'm no casino nor affialiated with any, but doesn't make a lot of sense actually. Commission on a fair game just seems way too obvious (maybe not to others) and unnecessary with the 0's already a staple of a roulette wheel. It's definitely a bad idea to charge a commission on bet A, and then nothing on bet B, for the simple reason that no one (smart at least) would play bet A. The casino would then not make money, and likely lose money to AP's betting until they hit positive variance. If a 5% commission were to be charged, it wouldn't always be simple or possible math. Someone betting 25$ who wins even money would need to pay a $1.25 commission? More complex bets will slow the game down more.

I like the idea, I just don't think it works with roulette
link to original post



I understand your point but as it is an online game and there is no dealer who will get any headache with payments. so it should be fine. and by the way I will also accept crypto bets.
BTW I am sure that there will always be player who will bet on the commission bet. and yes there will be more on the no commission bet.
seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 5:13:04 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Roulette without zeroes has been around for a while.
The usual way to implement it is to reduce the payout odds on all bets - straight betting on a number might pay 30:1 or 25:1, with other bets similarly shortened.

19:20 is a pain on a table, and tallying commissions is a pain on a table.

Sorry. Best of luck.
link to original post



sorry if my original posting was not clear enough. it will be a no zero roulette wheel. and the only bets will be dozens or columns. there will be a felt only with dozens and columns as seen in the attached pic. I did this pic now just to give a clear and understandable example.
IMO online players will have no problem with 19:20

thank you very much for your input

Dieter
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February 25th, 2023 at 6:11:51 AM permalink
Quote: seven

Quote: Dieter

Roulette without zeroes has been around for a while.
The usual way to implement it is to reduce the payout odds on all bets - straight betting on a number might pay 30:1 or 25:1, with other bets similarly shortened.

19:20 is a pain on a table, and tallying commissions is a pain on a table.

Sorry. Best of luck.
link to original post



sorry if my original posting was not clear enough. it will be a no zero roulette wheel. and the only bets will be dozens or columns. there will be a felt only with dozens and columns as seen in the attached pic. I did this pic now just to give a clear and understandable example.
IMO online players will have no problem with 19:20

thank you very much for your input


link to original post



Well, if it's your online casino, you've already got a placement for your game. Congratulations.

From what I recall, many other online casinos stopped offering roulette without zero, and often went to European style single zero.

I'd collect commission both on the single and double columns, but I don't see an appeal for the player vs standard roulette if your commission rate is 5%.
At 2%, they might get interested.
I also don't see a reason NOT to let them straight bet on their lucky numbers while grinding away on the outside. Most roulette players I have met are superstitious, and greatly enjoy betting on the numbers they feel have personal importance in their lives.

You may know how your players think better than I do.
May the cards fall in your favor.
DJTeddyBear
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February 25th, 2023 at 6:44:41 AM permalink
I've often wondered if a casino offered Roulette without any zeros, could they still make a profit? I mean, some players win, while others will Martingale it up to the point that they are losing more than the winners win. At least in my head that's the way it would work.

But I agree with what others have said. A 5% commission is only slightly better than the edge on a double zero game, so why bother? And why not let them bet the numbers as well?

If you really want to offer a different Roulette game, just add a side bet, such as Poker For Roulette.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 7:11:22 AM permalink
I think you would be much better off allowing them to place bets on any number with the rule that 20% of their bet (rounded up to the nearest minimum chip size) is a bet on that number and the 80% is a bet on the dozen or column. There is no commission, but the single number pays less than 35:1. If you pick that payoff right, you can target any house edge (HE) that you think is best. You can use different color chips or have two halves of each number to distinguish between dozen or column. The grid can be large because you have only a few bets on the felt. You can even have two grids..

You then give the player a discount to the 20% rule on units of 6 chips. 20% of 6 is 1.2, but instead of rounding up two two chips on the single number, only one of them applies to the single number with the HE. Five chips get paid off at 2:1 on the dozen or column.

Examples using $1 min chip:
Player bets $180 on #11 dozen spot. So, $30 is a straight bet on #11, and $150 is on the first dozen at fair odds.
Player bets $200 on #11 dozen spot. So, $34 is a straight bet on #11, and $166 is on the first dozen at fair odds.
Player bets $2 on #11 dozen spot. So, $1 is a straight bet on #11, and $1 is on the first dozen at fair odds.

Players will soon be trained to use bets divisible by 6. It is even better if they always use units of 6 chips of the same denomination to make roulette dealer's job simple. The player could also bet one green and one red chip. Most of the time when the bet does not lose outright, the dealer just takes 1/6th of the bet because the number does not hit and then pays off the rest at 2:1. Easy. This keeps your no-zero gimmick and avoids the hassle of commissions. You also get a slightly increased HE from the people who refuse to conform their bets to get the discount on the 20% rule.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Dieter
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:06:03 AM permalink
I just did a bit more than 9 seconds of research.

There is an online casino group offering a no-zero roulette.
As far as I can tell, their edge comes from a 10% commission on session wins; the game itself seems to pay true odds.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Mental
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:12:31 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I just did a bit more than 9 seconds of research.

There is an online casino group offering a no-zero roulette.
As far as I can tell, their edge comes from a 10% commission on session wins; the game itself seems to pay true odds.
link to original post

This seems diabolical. You can reduce you expected commission by continuing to play until all of your profits vanish. Your after-commission RTP is the lowest if you always just play one spin per session. Can you stay logged on forever and continue the session indefinitely?
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:16:19 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: seven

Quote: Dieter

Roulette without zeroes has been around for a while.
The usual way to implement it is to reduce the payout odds on all bets - straight betting on a number might pay 30:1 or 25:1, with other bets similarly shortened.

19:20 is a pain on a table, and tallying commissions is a pain on a table.

Sorry. Best of luck.
link to original post



sorry if my original posting was not clear enough. it will be a no zero roulette wheel. and the only bets will be dozens or columns. there will be a felt only with dozens and columns as seen in the attached pic. I did this pic now just to give a clear and understandable example.
IMO online players will have no problem with 19:20

thank you very much for your input


link to original post



Well, if it's your online casino, you've already got a placement for your game. Congratulations.

From what I recall, many other online casinos stopped offering roulette without zero, and often went to European style single zero.

I'd collect commission both on the single and double columns, but I don't see an appeal for the player vs standard roulette if your commission rate is 5%.
At 2%, they might get interested.
I also don't see a reason NOT to let them straight bet on their lucky numbers while grinding away on the outside. Most roulette players I have met are superstitious, and greatly enjoy betting on the numbers they feel have personal importance in their lives.

You may know how your players think better than I do.
link to original post



I am still working to get my online casino live. still a lot of work to do.

I have chosen the 5% for the players who will bet on 1 dozen or column only as they will get double money minus 5% fee

I thought that the players who will win only 50% of their bet will also try the bet to win double money. maybe I am wrong but I thought as long as there are those who playing for a double win and paying the 5% fee it could work out fine in the long run.

thanks for your opinion
Dieter
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seven
February 25th, 2023 at 8:19:13 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: Dieter

I just did a bit more than 9 seconds of research.

There is an online casino group offering a no-zero roulette.
As far as I can tell, their edge comes from a 10% commission on session wins; the game itself seems to pay true odds.
link to original post

This seems diabolical. You can reduce you expected commission by continuing to play until all of your profits vanish. Your after-commission RTP is the lowest if you always just play one spin per session. Can you stay logged on forever and continue the session indefinitely?
link to original post



24 hour session limit.
Best of luck.
May the cards fall in your favor.
seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:21:21 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I just did a bit more than 9 seconds of research.

There is an online casino group offering a no-zero roulette.
As far as I can tell, their edge comes from a 10% commission on session wins; the game itself seems to pay true odds.
link to original post



very interesting. I tried the search but could not find it. question is what is a session? as soon he wants to cash out the winnings?


edit
I see now that you answered that it is a 24 hours session. not bad idea actually
I found it now thanks Dieter
Dieter
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:34:07 AM permalink
Quote: seven

Quote: Dieter

I just did a bit more than 9 seconds of research.

There is an online casino group offering a no-zero roulette.
As far as I can tell, their edge comes from a 10% commission on session wins; the game itself seems to pay true odds.
link to original post



very interesting. I tried the search but could not find it. question is what is a session? as soon he wants to cash out the winnings?


edit
I see now that you answered that it is a 24 hours session. not bad idea actually
I found it now thanks Dieter
link to original post



I would close a session whenever a player wanted to add money to the table, take money off the table, or after 24 hours.

I didn't investigate the specifics of how others do it.
May the cards fall in your favor.
seven
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February 25th, 2023 at 8:38:17 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: seven

Quote: Dieter

I just did a bit more than 9 seconds of research.

There is an online casino group offering a no-zero roulette.
As far as I can tell, their edge comes from a 10% commission on session wins; the game itself seems to pay true odds.
link to original post



very interesting. I tried the search but could not find it. question is what is a session? as soon he wants to cash out the winnings?


edit
I see now that you answered that it is a 24 hours session. not bad idea actually
I found it now thanks Dieter
link to original post



I would close a session whenever a player wanted to add money to the table, take money off the table, or after 24 hours.

I didn't investigate the specifics of how others do it.
link to original post



thanks again, very helpful. as all those options sound very good

I saw they also will end a session after one hour and no action
DRich
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February 25th, 2023 at 2:45:51 PM permalink
Quote: seven

[

I am still working to get my online casino live. still a lot of work to do.



I hope you have lots of money for advertising. I couldn't even imagine starting an online casino without millions of dollars to advertise and incentivize.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
seven
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February 26th, 2023 at 6:55:22 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: seven

[

I am still working to get my online casino live. still a lot of work to do.



I hope you have lots of money for advertising. I couldn't even imagine starting an online casino without millions of dollars to advertise and incentivize.
link to original post



sorry but I don't agree with you. I want to offer only a few games (my own games) and the most important part is the license IMHO and here is my headache
teliot
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seven
February 26th, 2023 at 8:53:53 AM permalink
Quote: seven

[

In this case, just use a single dice for the game. The rows are the bets {1,2}, {3,4} and {5,6}. The columns are the bets {1,4}, {2,5} and {3,6}. Each winning bet pays 2-to-1 with a 5% commission.

The house edge is 3%.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
seven
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February 26th, 2023 at 10:13:04 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Quote: seven

[

In this case, just use a single dice for the game. The rows are the bets {1,2}, {3,4} and {5,6}. The columns are the bets {1,4}, {2,5} and {3,6}. Each winning bet pays 2-to-1 with a 5% commission.

The house edge is 3%.
link to original post



very interesting idea for those who like to see a dice rolling. thank you!

the only problem I learned in this thread is the commission/HE and I like the solution Dieter pointed out with his find to take a session commission.

I opened this thread as I always got great help from members in this forum and I was not disappointed :)
teliot
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February 26th, 2023 at 12:09:56 PM permalink
Quote: seven

Quote: teliot

Quote: seven

[

In this case, just use a single dice for the game. The rows are the bets {1,2}, {3,4} and {5,6}. The columns are the bets {1,4}, {2,5} and {3,6}. Each winning bet pays 2-to-1 with a 5% commission.

The house edge is 3%.
link to original post



very interesting idea for those who like to see a dice rolling. thank you!

I'd say this response is reason enough for me to block this thread. I wish you much success in whatever you do.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
AZDuffman
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February 26th, 2023 at 2:31:05 PM permalink
Quote: seven

Quote: AZDuffman

I see no point here. They can just keep betting the dozens. There is already a 5.25 edge in Roulette. Players who want a simple bet like this have Big 6.

It would be losing for the casino owner because they would have to pay you the royalty to get a slightly less house edge than they have in Roulette.

Sorry, don't see it happening.
link to original post



I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
>It will be a roulette wheel with no zero. A completely fair wheel.<

I am also not talking about a new game I want to sell to casino owners. I want to offer this game on my own online casino which I want to create in the future.

thanks for your input
link to original post



I get what you are saying but forgive my bluntness when I say it is a bit of an Edsel of an idea. The problem with the Edsel was there was no market for another mid-priced car. In this case I do not see a market for one roulette bet that can be made for the same odds elsewhere when the commission is figured in. Note that you only really see a "commission" on the Asian games. IOW, the market for accepting them is small.

Good luck, though.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
SOOPOO
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zbrownson
February 26th, 2023 at 3:56:42 PM permalink
Mr seven, how do you expect to get a single player to sign up for your casino? 選致e made up this new casino on my own, and will offer just a few games, with the highlight being a silly version of roulette that does not allow you to bet on individual numbers!

If you actually ever do launch your casino, we値l then, I値l eat crow.
seven
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February 26th, 2023 at 11:04:10 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: seven

Quote: AZDuffman

I see no point here. They can just keep betting the dozens. There is already a 5.25 edge in Roulette. Players who want a simple bet like this have Big 6.

It would be losing for the casino owner because they would have to pay you the royalty to get a slightly less house edge than they have in Roulette.

Sorry, don't see it happening.
link to original post



I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
>It will be a roulette wheel with no zero. A completely fair wheel.<

I am also not talking about a new game I want to sell to casino owners. I want to offer this game on my own online casino which I want to create in the future.

thanks for your input
link to original post



I get what you are saying but forgive my bluntness when I say it is a bit of an Edsel of an idea. The problem with the Edsel was there was no market for another mid-priced car. In this case I do not see a market for one roulette bet that can be made for the same odds elsewhere when the commission is figured in. Note that you only really see a "commission" on the Asian games. IOW, the market for accepting them is small.

Good luck, though.
link to original post



you are absolutely right. please understand I am not looking for many customers I am only looking to get attention with my game and I am sure I will succeed with getting attention with the game I have in mind.

again thank you for your kind input and stay safe
seven
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February 26th, 2023 at 11:13:37 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Mr seven, how do you expect to get a single player to sign up for your casino? 選致e made up this new casino on my own, and will offer just a few games, with the highlight being a silly version of roulette that does not allow you to bet on individual numbers!

If you actually ever do launch your casino, we値l then, I値l eat crow.
link to original post



Mr SOOPOO,

I promise that I will have more than one player. I had many years ago my own crypto casino with many (my own stupid) games :)
I know you will not believe it but I don't have to prove myself :)
the internet is full of comments if you would know the used name :)

as soon I will open my own online casino I can prove it but you will never prove that you ate the crow :)

thank you for making me laugh :) stay safe
AZDuffman
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February 27th, 2023 at 2:47:00 AM permalink
Quote: seven

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: seven

Quote: AZDuffman

I see no point here. They can just keep betting the dozens. There is already a 5.25 edge in Roulette. Players who want a simple bet like this have Big 6.

It would be losing for the casino owner because they would have to pay you the royalty to get a slightly less house edge than they have in Roulette.

Sorry, don't see it happening.
link to original post



I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
>It will be a roulette wheel with no zero. A completely fair wheel.<

I am also not talking about a new game I want to sell to casino owners. I want to offer this game on my own online casino which I want to create in the future.

thanks for your input
link to original post



I get what you are saying but forgive my bluntness when I say it is a bit of an Edsel of an idea. The problem with the Edsel was there was no market for another mid-priced car. In this case I do not see a market for one roulette bet that can be made for the same odds elsewhere when the commission is figured in. Note that you only really see a "commission" on the Asian games. IOW, the market for accepting them is small.

Good luck, though.
link to original post



you are absolutely right. please understand I am not looking for many customers I am only looking to get attention with my game and I am sure I will succeed with getting attention with the game I have in mind.

again thank you for your kind input and stay safe
link to original post



The thing is you do not have a "game" you have a "side bet" of sorts. If this is the route you want to go I would suggest going something totally new. There is a chance you could not even patent this as the bets already exist, you are just changing the payout. Good luck though.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
seven
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February 27th, 2023 at 4:35:44 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: seven

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: seven

Quote: AZDuffman

I see no point here. They can just keep betting the dozens. There is already a 5.25 edge in Roulette. Players who want a simple bet like this have Big 6.

It would be losing for the casino owner because they would have to pay you the royalty to get a slightly less house edge than they have in Roulette.

Sorry, don't see it happening.
link to original post



I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
>It will be a roulette wheel with no zero. A completely fair wheel.<

I am also not talking about a new game I want to sell to casino owners. I want to offer this game on my own online casino which I want to create in the future.

thanks for your input
link to original post



I get what you are saying but forgive my bluntness when I say it is a bit of an Edsel of an idea. The problem with the Edsel was there was no market for another mid-priced car. In this case I do not see a market for one roulette bet that can be made for the same odds elsewhere when the commission is figured in. Note that you only really see a "commission" on the Asian games. IOW, the market for accepting them is small.

Good luck, though.
link to original post



you are absolutely right. please understand I am not looking for many customers I am only looking to get attention with my game and I am sure I will succeed with getting attention with the game I have in mind.

again thank you for your kind input and stay safe
link to original post



The thing is you do not have a "game" you have a "side bet" of sorts. If this is the route you want to go I would suggest going something totally new. There is a chance you could not even patent this as the bets already exist, you are just changing the payout. Good luck though.
link to original post



and again I have to agree with you. for example I could offer the 3 shell game ( a fair one) as it is like betting on a dozen or a column.
stay safe
Mental
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February 27th, 2023 at 5:08:32 AM permalink
Quote: seven

and again I have to agree with you. for example I could offer the 3 shell game ( a fair one) as it is like betting on a dozen or a column.
stay safe
link to original post

You could simplify things even more by offering a one-shell game and taking a commission off the win on every single game.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
seven
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February 27th, 2023 at 5:11:51 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: seven

and again I have to agree with you. for example I could offer the 3 shell game ( a fair one) as it is like betting on a dozen or a column.
stay safe
link to original post

You could simplify things even more by offering a one-shell game and taking a commission off the win on every single game.
link to original post



please be more explicit as English is not my mother lang

what is a one shell game?
Mental
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February 27th, 2023 at 6:30:46 AM permalink
Quote: seven

Quote: Mental

Quote: seven

and again I have to agree with you. for example I could offer the 3 shell game ( a fair one) as it is like betting on a dozen or a column.
stay safe
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You could simplify things even more by offering a one-shell game and taking a commission off the win on every single game.
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please be more explicit as English is not my mother lang

what is a one shell game?
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Sorry. I am not sure that what your goal is. If you just want to simplify games, then I was just pointing out that the absurd end-point of simplification is to hide one ball under one shell and the player guess whether the ball is under that one shell. The player always wins and you always get your commission.

You need to be thinking from the players point of view. The do not want overly complex games, but I think they want something more than a fair 3-shell game.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
seven
seven
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 247
Joined: Oct 1, 2013
February 27th, 2023 at 6:45:50 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: seven

Quote: Mental

Quote: seven

and again I have to agree with you. for example I could offer the 3 shell game ( a fair one) as it is like betting on a dozen or a column.
stay safe
link to original post

You could simplify things even more by offering a one-shell game and taking a commission off the win on every single game.
link to original post



please be more explicit as English is not my mother lang

what is a one shell game?
link to original post

Sorry. I am not sure that what your goal is. If you just want to simplify games, then I was just pointing out that the absurd end-point of simplification is to hide one ball under one shell and the player guess whether the ball is under that one shell. The player always wins and you always get your commission.

You need to be thinking from the players point of view. The do not want overly complex games, but I think they want something more than a fair 3-shell game.
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thank you for clarifying. if a player always wins and the house gets the commission then the house will die very fast. so I guess this was a joke a sarcasm

trust me the player does not care about a complex or a simple game as long he has an advantage and he will have profit at the end. or lets take a design of games or a casino. if I have a casino and worst designed games and the players will have the edge or play against lowest HE - the casino will be full 24/7

stay safe
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