2KNUCKLES
• Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 10, 2022
February 10th, 2022 at 11:42:06 AM permalink
One of my local brick & mortar casinos is offering 10X odds at their craps tables. I like to play the don’t and normally will will play up to three (3) numbers on each shooter, laying full odds. I like the security of knowing that I can’t lose all of my bets with one roll of the dice. My question is should I continue or am I better off tripling my bet on only one number. I’m thinking that I may be sacrificing comps.. I have read that craps comps. are based mostly if not entirely on the “line” bet and odds bets are disregarded (since they are even money bets).
ChumpChange
• Posts: 4917
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
February 10th, 2022 at 11:48:41 AM permalink
So do you max odds your Don't bets at 10X, 12X, or (12X, 15X, 20X)?
Is comps even a thing when you're that heavy on odds?

I like 3X-6X odds on the Don't.
2KNUCKLES
• Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 10, 2022
February 10th, 2022 at 11:50:18 AM permalink
I alway lay 10X (max) odds
ChumpChange
• Posts: 4917
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
February 10th, 2022 at 12:08:12 PM permalink
I'm gonna assume the table minimum is \$15 so the \$150 odds bet is divisible by all numbers' odds.
If you wanted to triple up the bet so you have a \$45 DP bet with \$450 odds, it shouldn't change your comps or HA theoretically; but the pit makes the decisions and they may not pay attention either way.
pwcrabb
• Posts: 185
Joined: May 15, 2010
February 10th, 2022 at 7:50:00 PM permalink
The OP plays a Dark Molly and Lays maximum Odds. He is correct that for his ratings his Odds Wagers are disregarded because they have a neutral Expected Value. He may want to reconsider his high Odds multiple in light of the very high Variance which Laid Odds carries.

An apocryphal story regarding Nick "The Greek" Dandolos (1883 - 1966) has him in his last days admitting that his few regrets included Laying Odds for huge sums.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
2KNUCKLES
• Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 10, 2022
February 11th, 2022 at 6:05:39 AM permalink
I’m not sure why the “Greek” regretted laying odds, but I am sure variance had little to do with it. As the variance is pretty much the same for taking or laying odds.
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9618
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
February 11th, 2022 at 7:34:21 AM permalink
Quote: 2KNUCKLES

One of my local brick & mortar casinos is offering 10X odds at their craps tables. I like to play the don’t and normally will will play up to three (3) numbers on each shooter, laying full odds.

OK, fine, now you do know that free odds do not help you win more money in and of themselves.
Quote:

I like the security of knowing that I can’t lose all of my bets with one roll of the dice.

I know what you mean, but I've become convinced that this is a false security.
Quote:

My question is should I continue or am I better off tripling my bet on only one number.

What the free odds really do is increase the variance. More ups and downs. In fact the variance that 10x free odds create, well, most people can't take it.
Quote:

I’m thinking that I may be sacrificing comps.. I have read that craps comps. are based mostly if not entirely on the “line” bet and odds bets are disregarded (since they are even money bets).

You could definitely get more comps, but that gets back to the advice not to play for comps.

Here it is: for the free odds, it's your total action that matters. If you put \$10 on the line and then \$100 on the free odds, on the Don't  or not, your EV [expected value] on your bet does not change. It was minus 14 cents to begin and is still -14 cents after free odds. If your total action was going to be 100 bets, you've simply put a lot of money out there, over 10,000 bucks in fact, and if lucky will be very happy, or if not, possibly just have a little left. Not so happy. This is where the wild swings come in.

If, however, your total action was to be \$1100, not \$10,000+, because, say, you are not playing free odds and not increasing the line bet. Instead of 110 \$10 bets you make as many bets with odds as you can, not to exceed \$1100, now you have decreased the House Edge on your total action. This means you will only make a few bets as opposed to 110. You might be disappointed at the time you get to spend at the table, a problem for me too. We can talk about that if you want. But get the concept here.

You see, with your question you seem to be talking about changing to \$30 on line bets to get the comps. Fine if you keep to just a few bets and go home. But likely you are staying at the table. Your total action is going back to several thousand, maybe something towards \$10,000+ total action again, only now there is house edge against all those bets. Maybe worse, the variance is very low and very, very boring.

I think anyone who has used the free odds never goes back, intuition if nothing else will stop that move. The most sane thing may be to not play the full 10x odds, but 4x or so.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
2KNUCKLES
• Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 10, 2022
February 11th, 2022 at 1:01:50 PM permalink
Thank You for your answer(s), and the advice. I do understand the bankroll needed to minimize the ROR and the need for bankroll management.
pwcrabb
• Posts: 185
Joined: May 15, 2010
February 11th, 2022 at 8:41:59 PM permalink
Best Wishes 2Knuckles
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
teddys
• Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
February 15th, 2022 at 2:08:47 PM permalink
Quote: pwcrabb

An apocryphal story regarding Nick "The Greek" Dandolos (1883 - 1966) has him in his last days admitting that his few regrets included Laying Odds for huge sums.

I read this differently. As Nick told it, he regretted NOT taking more odds, as he actually would have had a better chance of survival/not busted out on his insane craps games. I can't remember if he was a lay or a take player -- I know he played at Binion's and Benny Binion wouldn't give him more than X number of odds. Or maybe Benny did and Nick just didn't take him up on it.

Edit: I apologize. This was Archie Karras. Got my Greeks confused. Also, Jack not Benny Binion was involved.

The poker action for Karas mostly dried up due to his reputation and stakes. He turned to dice, for \$100,000 per roll.[4] Karas was allowed to make pass line and come bets of up to \$300,000, but with no odds.[9] Jack Binion capped Karas' buy bets on the 4 and 10 at \$100,000. At one point, Binion raised Karas' 4 and 10 buy bet limit to \$200,000. Karas quickly won \$920,000 under these conditions; then Binion immediately lowered the limit back to \$100,000.[9] Karas said that he could quickly win \$3 million on dice, while it would take days to weeks with poker. Karas stated, "with each play I was making million-dollar decisions, I would have played even higher if they'd let me."[3]

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2008/03/sextons-corner-36-archie-karas-part-6-4845.htm
Last edited by: teddys on Feb 15, 2022
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4