Bodog and Bots...

I am a long time reader of Wizard of odds. Congratulation Wizard for your good job.

I am an online poker player. Last week or so, Fulltilt decided not to accept bots anymore at its table. Bodog is now one of the
only major online poker platform to be bots friendly. What is your opinion on that, and am I right to think that accepting
bots at a poker table could be very very bad for the medium term expected return of the ordinary 1-2$ recreationnal player ?
Is'nt it like cheating ?

Thanks for your thoughts on that.


Ponpon

First, I can't confirm or deny the comment on Bodog's position on poker bots. I asked Bodog Becky for comment on it.

Personally, I oppose allowing bots. As you said, they would probably outplay the low limit players, which would be bad for poker. Heck, they could probably outplay me too, so maybe I'm just jealous.

My last blog entry was about how I was killed by a player at Bodog who raised almost all the time. He never chatted either, and never seemed to take breaks. I wonder if that was a bot.

Quote: Wizard

First, I can't confirm or deny the comment on Bodog's position on poker bots. I asked Bodog Becky for comment on it.

Personally, I oppose allowing bots. As you said, they would probably outplay the low limit players, which would be bad for poker. Heck, they could probably outplay me too, so maybe I'm just jealous.

My last blog entry was about how I could killed by a player at Bodog who raised almost all the time. He never chatted either, and never seemed to take breaks. I wonder if that was a bot.

I wonder why they would implement such a ban, because the presence of bots increases the rake, and thus generates more profit. It's not like anyone can tell whether they're playing against a bot, or just someone who doesn't feel like talking. I'm sure it's trivially easy to program a bot to vary the times it takes to act, so you couldn't tell that way.

It could be that the bots (which the site itself can probably identify) are winning too much and too often. The ideal poker game, from the online casino's point of view, is where all the players are of equal skill---everybody will be playing that much longer. A further improvement would be that the game itself is as unskillful as possible, which is why the casinos (and, most players) like hold'em.

Quote: mkl654321

I wonder why they would implement such a ban, because the presence of bots increases the rake, and thus generates more profit. It's not like anyone can tell whether they're playing against a bot, or just someone who doesn't feel like talking. I'm sure it's trivially easy to program a bot to vary the times it takes to act, so you couldn't tell that way.

I think that is short term thinking. If bots are taking low limit players to the cleaners, those players are not likely to return. I have never knowingly played a bot before, but I have played chess computers lots of times. The problem with chess computers is they don't play a soulful game and they don't make mistakes. Your main hope is to suffer no mistakes yourself and hope to play a stronger positional game, which is not very fun. Gambling is supposed to be fun and entertaining. I just don't believe that playing a bot could be as much fun as playing flesh and blood. Agreed that the bot makers randomize decision times and take breaks to fool the bot detectors.

Quote: mkl654321

It could be that the bots (which the site itself can probably identify) are winning too much and too often. The ideal poker game, from the online casino's point of view, is where all the players are of equal skill---everybody will be playing that much longer. A further improvement would be that the game itself is as unskillful as possible, which is why the casinos (and, most players) like hold'em.

I agree about it being ideal that all players have the same skill. Perhaps at least one poker site should welcome public skill ratings and segregate players by their level. I could see some players playing sandbagging tricks, but a watchful eye and good rules could guard against that.

Quote: ponpon

I am a long time reader of Wizard of odds. Congratulation Wizard for your good job.

I am an online poker player. Last week or so, Fulltilt decided not to accept bots anymore at its table. Bodog is now one of the
only major online poker platform to be bots friendly. What is your opinion on that, and am I right to think that accepting
bots at a poker table could be very very bad for the medium term expected return of the ordinary 1-2$ recreationnal player ?
Is'nt it like cheating ?

Thanks for your thoughts on that.


Ponpon

To clear up some facts, by no means is Bodog Poker bot friendly. Bodog Poker works hard with both bot prevention and bot detection and if someone is caught using a bot their account will be closed and the funds seized.

Thanks to the Wizard for bringing this thread to my attention...any questions, let me know!

Becky

if you want to know about bots. A simple test is to re-raise the player that might be a bot player . You don't have to go all in. Just double his raise, and if they continue to fold it's a bot. And wiz right no chat from bots. I was playing at sportsbook a few years ago. iT WAS ABOUT 2;00 A.M. and i join in at a table. And i was the only none bot player. And I set out to go to restroom, and when i came back I noticed that they where taking turns. the blinds where placed then the next player to bet would raise the bet , and all seven players would fold. I watched them repeat this for around 30 hands without every seeing the flop. I figured out that if i re-raise the bet high enough they would all fold. And they would even move to different tables. And other bots would come in at my table.
I figured out that i was sitting at their home table. And they where program to do a rotation . And later that week i found that their where at least two bots
at almost every table low to medium stakes, and they would play for a while. Then leave to go to home table, and another bot took his place.

one more thing.Three years ago nobody believed my about the bots. Untill i wrote something on this site about my run in with the bots, and how i watched
them play for 30 hands without a flop being dealt. And he responed back something like " yeah it could happen" ...thanks man...

I'm thinking that some poker software does look at players skill level, or learns by noticing who plays better cards, and who folds trash cards. And will recongize good players from the beginers. And maybe even do a little handicapping for the beginer players. Then they will have a chance to learn before getting their stack divide by the better players. And if the beginers just get hammered all the time by the higher skilled players they will leave the site , and never comes back. which isn't good for online poker sites.

Quote: 40487

if you want to know about bots. A simple test is to re-raise the player that might be a bot player .

If so I would have to believe that sites that allow bots will continue to improve them to be better poker players. There are recognizable odds of winning vs a re-raiser when having certain cards, after all!

I wouldn't want to say she is being evasive on purpose, but did it seem to you that Bodog Becky answered the wrong question? She seemed to be saying that Bodog tries to detect players that use software to play, and ban them when she uses the expression "caught using a bot". You might feel this also confirms Bodog's policy on Bodog bots, but I would like to see that expressly stated myself.

Thanks Wizard.

Although I was not expecting a different answer from BodogBecky, maybe if enough players raise the issue to poker sites management, they will understand how bad for the game (in the long term) bots playing can be.

Ponpon

Quote: ponpon

Thanks Wizard. Although I was not expecting a different answer from BodogBecky, maybe if enough players raise the issue to poker sites management, they will understand how bad for the game (in the long term) bots playing can be.

You're welcome. As long as anyone is writing to management, I would also suggest taking measure to prevent use of products like PokerTracker, which gives the user statistics on his opponents, based on large log files of hand histories. It would be a big disadvantage to go against another player using it. One easy countermeasure would be to let the player use any alias he wishes at every sitting.

My general opinion is that it has become too hard for recreational players to win at online poker any longer. In several years, the online players went from mostly fish, to mostly sharks. Your only hope is to play at such a low level that skilled players don't want to fuss with it. Sorry for going off topic somewhat.

Quote: odiousgambit

If so I would have to believe that sites that allow bots will continue to improve them to be better poker players. There are recognizable odds of winning vs a re-raiser when having certain cards, after all!

I wouldn't want to say she is being evasive on purpose, but did it seem to you that Bodog Becky answered the wrong question? She seemed to be saying that Bodog tries to detect players that use software to play, and ban them when she uses the expression "caught using a bot". You might feel this also confirms Bodog's policy on Bodog bots, but I would like to see that expressly stated myself.

Sorry if I was unclear: Bodog does not have any bots playing that are coming from bodog if that is what you wanted to know.   Bodog does not allow bots, period.

Becky