Strange Request at Cashier for w-9

new to this site. So far i really enjoy all the feedback and information shared ! Thank you to all the members who take the time to respond.

I used to frequent a large Indian Gaming Casino for several years. I played with my players card at the beginning and then stopped as i preferred to feel a degree of anonymity when playing. My naivete slowly wore off and i realized this marked me as suspicious. Whenever i played the casino seemed to pay extra mind to me and eventually my losses and the extra attention i felt from the casino led me to temporarily exclude myself.

Several years later i returned and on my first nite one of the managers recognized me...he was VERY polite and friendly..."happy" to see me again. He asked if i wanted a card again and i said, "no i hope to not be back again...just passing through for an evening". That was the plan but i got sucked into going back. I saw the same manager on the way in and told him i had such a good time coming back that i would love a card and im eager to play.

That evening my cash losses started to approach 10,000 but by my calculations not quite there yet. At one point i went to get a cash advance and the cashier noticed my ID was 4 days expired. I explained that by law its not officially expired for 30 days until after the said date. I also explained that the day before they had no issue with the ID and had given me an advance. She asked for her supervisor and she politely stated that by their regulations that she can not honor the advance and that legally they should not have done it the day before. She said she cant do the advance unless i have the paper from the DMV and i explained they dont give you one by mail.I was grumpy and got a bit pissy and told her then if the advances were illegal perhaps if i filed a grievance with my bank that they would credit me. (Stupid i know). I walked away pissy.

I went home and got more money and came back a few hours later. Im not sure but i assume the 10,000 i was approaching must have now entered a new gaming day but who knows? When i cashed in at the table a pit boss im friendly with came over and asked for ID. I said my players card is in the system. He was very friendly and said he knows but the upper offices want my id. I said i have it but its expired. I asked him why....he said they need to update their system. I asked him if i needed to fill out some sort of paperwork and he said no for gambling too many funds and he said no and continued to ask about my renewal. I told him the DMV hadnt mailed it yet and that i lacked the paper form because i did it through the mail. I asked him if they wanted me to stop playing and if everything was ok. He said all was well and that this time its fine to keep playing. After a few more questions as to why an expired ID was such a big deal when they have my information on my players card he said that i had not reached CTR reporting yet but that i was close so they were probably prepping. I played on and the same pit boss continued to hang with me pleasantly talking about life...his heritage...mine etc. I offered subtle conversational information about my work etc he didnt ask for just to offer transparency etc.I cashed out 3000 grand and kept a 500 chip for the next day.

The next day i went back...lost the 500 chip (wondered if they were suspicious upon taking my players card where that chip came from if the card showed it as my first play of the day??? Any feedback??) I then cashed in 3000 over 6- 500 dollar buy ins, and an additional 800 from the ATM soooo now played a total of 4300 including my 500 chip from the prior day. I had won a total of 4625 when they decided to change cards. I went in cashed in 2625 in chips and kept the rest for future play once the cards were changed and i had a meal. After more losses i tried a cash advance for 300 dollars hoping the cashier would not notice the expired id. It worked so now im in 4600 although im also up 325 from before they changed cards. Long story short...i played tal 16 in the casino...which i had never done before and hit the cashier cage with 4500 in 500 chips. BTW--The boss at the last run table was also very friendly and kind and very supportive of my play holding spots for me so i could jump from 1-3 hands of play on a very busy sunday (they never do that when asked in the past).

When i hit the window she asked for my players card ( i assume cuz i was over 3000). Something odd popped up on her screen and she asked for a colleague to come over as she seemed perplexed. He stated ll for the supervisor". The supervisor came over and insisted i fill out a w-9. He said it was for internal use only. I asked why as ive been there for yrs on and off etc and never had to in the past. (i had one CTR yrs prior that i know of filled out there when i wasnt using card) I told him i had no issue with filling it out but was curious what it all means so i could be sure im in line with my taxes and properly inform my CPA of the issue. He said he really was not sure but that the upstairs is asking for it so i gotta do it if i want my money--he seemed confused himself. I told him i had an expired ID...he asked for the paper as well and i told him blah blah. He said maybe thats it...and asked if perhaps i had cashed chips once already. I was honest and said im not sure if it was considered same gaming day as i had been here for hours but that yes...2625 and that it was not winnings but even money...and that this recent cash in is also part of that play as well. He said...i will not have to pay tax on this winning and that its not being reported they just needed the information for internal purposes. I said its not issue on my end as im in good standing with the IRS but i just wanted to be informed so i was sure i was handling all the paperwork and money perfectly for my taxes. be honest all this had me a bit nervous and i just did not want to warrant an SARC. I then went to the pit boss and told her they had me fill out a w-9 and i thought it odd. I told her i was concerned because there were no profits and i didnt want them reported as such just cuz i cashed in. She said not to worry and there will be a P/L statement at the end of the year that will clarify all of that. I was aware of this but wanted to take her temperature as to whether they were tracking me for being suspicious.

Some posts on this forum have implied that surely they were gathering information for a CTR. Im curious for any opinions or advice as to how to proceed from here based on my specific scenario. Im not one to be concerned with IRS fallout as im in good standing but i do appreciate my privacy and i do have assets i hope to protect even from frivolous inquiries. No one wants hassles with the Treasury or IRS or information being passed on them... I love gambling but disdain the big brother vibe and their spying for the Fed these days. Thanks for any inputs and please forgive the long winded narrative. I promise to keep it shorter in the future.

All the best !

A W9 makes no sense. They're up to something. They don't need your ID for either CTR or SAR as long as they know who you are. I have never heard of a drivers license coming by mail. what picture are they going to use? That's odd to me, but I've just never heard of it. Is there anything about you we need to know to understand this story? I'd just go somewhere else or nowhere else if I were you.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

A W9 makes no sense. They're up to something. They don't need your ID for either CTR or SAR as long as they know who you are.

That's only partially correct. They need a valid Government issued ID for a CTR. He does not have a valid one. No valid ID and W9 on file at most places, no more action. Where I work you must leave the casino completely. Some smaller places require it every time you reach CTR.


ZCore13

Where i live you can get your driver license renewed through the mail. Mine renewal has not arrive yet. Perhaps when i went to get the cash advance and they noticed my license expired they flagged me for further inquiry? Perhaps the w-9 was their way of getting me to give them updated information under the penalty of perjury if i gave false information?

So do you think they asked me to fill out a w-9 in lieu of me not having an updated license on file? you think they were trying to fill out a CTR for the prior days and needed information? Now that i think about it...i had played for HOURS with my players card and they didnt ask me for any information and had been nothing but polite and not paying any real special attentions to me as far as i could tell. I had already visited the cage once with under wasnt until i showed up with over 4000g that they asked me for my card and then noticed "upstairs" wanted a w-9. Whats your hit on it ?

Zcore13

Do you think it would be considered suspicious to ask one the pit bosses i seem to have a SLIGHT repertoire with if a CTR was filed due to the w-9 they asked for...?

Quote: gamble2much

Zcore13

Do you think it would be considered suspicious to ask one the pit bosses i seem to have a SLIGHT repertoire with if a CTR was filed due to the w-9 they asked for...?

I'm not sure why it really matters. They know you. You've given them your info before. Now they are looking for a valid drivers license and if they are asking for a W-9, your SS number for CTR purposes.

You can ask why, but your acquaintance employee is going to tell you one of three answers:

Yes it's for CTR purposes, or
I don't know why, or
I don't have the authority to discuss it

None of them really do you any good. A CTR has nothing to do with wins or losses. It's only if you exceed $10,000 in buy ins or cash outs in one gaming day. The CTR gets filed as required and for 99.99% of people it never even gets looked at. It's for trying to track money laundering.


ZCore13

"Now they are looking for a valid drivers license and if they are asking for a W-9, your SS number for CTR purposes".

Im sorry but your response confused me maybe due to typo or punctuation. So its your understanding the w-9 was most likely for CTR purposes from several days prior...or do you think it possible that its just an update to the system due to the current situation of an expired id? Im curious, so im sure to show the monies in my ats all.

Quote: gamble2much

"Now they are looking for a valid drivers license and if they are asking for a W-9, your SS number for CTR purposes".

Im sorry but your response confused me maybe due to typo or punctuation. So its your understanding the w-9 was most likely for CTR purposes from several days prior...or do you think it possible that its just an update to the system due to the current situation of an expired id? Im curious, so im sure to show the monies in my ats all.

Probably just an update. At my place we have to get a new one every 4 years. If they were wanting it for a previous days CTR, you probably wouldn't be allowed to play until they got it.


ZCore13

Quote: onenickelmiracle

A W9 makes no sense. They're up to something. They don't need your ID for either CTR or SAR as long as they know who you are. I have never heard of a drivers license coming by mail. what picture are they going to use? That's odd to me, but I've just never heard of it. Is there anything about you we need to know to understand this story? I'd just go somewhere else or nowhere else if I were you.

Im NYS if you have a prior id you can reorder new ones online. They then send it in the mail with the previously taken photo

Naturally casinos are way behind on technology

I think what made them wary is that you used an expired ID, doesn't matter if it only expired 4 days prior. You wouldn't drink milk that expired on July 7th, would you? In my job we aren't allowed to accept expired IDs to do transactions, even if it expired one day before.

Quote: Nathan

I think what made them wary is that you used an expired ID, doesn't matter if it only expired 4 days prior. You wouldn't drink milk that expired on July 7th, would you? In my job we aren't allowed to accept expired IDs to do transactions, even if it expired one day before.

Well your employers are stupid

ID purpose is to identify who you are

Does your identity change because its expired?

The state usually gives a 30 day Grace. Your company should too

BTW I dont think expired food is a good comparison to ID that is expired

Quote: darkoz

Well your employers are stupid

ID purpose is to identify who you are

Does your identity change because its expired?

The state usually gives a 30 day Grace. Your company should too

BTW I dont think expired food is a good comparison to ID that is expired

Wrong. Many places don't accept expired ID and pretty much any place that has a high volume of cash (casinos) must only accept valid forms of ID for Title 31 compliance. It's not a valid form of ID if it's expired not matter what your opinion is.


ZCore13

And they wonder why players have figured out "Only cash out X at a time, per day" NOT as a form of structuring, but as a form of avoiding this harassment...

Quote: Zcore13

Wrong. Many places don't accept expired ID and pretty much any place that has a high volume of cash (casinos) must only accept valid forms of ID for Title 31 compliance. It's not a valid form of ID if it's expired not matter what your opinion is.


ZCore13

Yes, we tell our casinos that if a player can't provide a non-expired government issued ID for CTR purposes, the player can not continue to play until they provide it. One day, one week, one year, it doesn't matter. They are basically 86'd from the property until they bring one in.

Quote: DRich

Yes, we tell our casinos that if a player can't provide a non-expired government issued ID for CTR purposes, the player can not continue to play until they provide it. One day, one week, one year, it doesn't matter. They are basically 86'd from the property until they bring one in.

So I'm curious about the legalities of this... legally, a government ID is still a valid form of ID for 30 days after its "expiration" date. At least I know in my part of the MidWest that it's still 100% valid as in you can provide it to an officer if pulled over/etc. If it's a valid form of ID, I don't believe casinos can have their "own" policy to not accept them. You can't deny a valid form of government ID because it's your "internal policy," right? I'd love to hear Bob N talk about this one.

edit: Maybe 90 days???

"Each license is renewable within 90 days prior to its expiration or at an earlier date approved by the MVD. The MVD may require an examination upon renewal. Licenses issued to drivers under age 21 will have the license expire 30 days after the driver's 21st birthday and may be renewed for a period of up to five years."

https://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/drivers-license-renewal/

Quote: Romes

So I'm curious about the legalities of this... legally, a government ID is still a valid form of ID for 30 days after its "expiration" date. At least I know in my part of the MidWest that it's still 100% valid as in you can provide it to an officer if pulled over/etc. If it's a valid form of ID, I don't believe casinos can have their "own" policy to not accept them. You can't deny a valid form of government ID because it's your "internal policy," right? I'd love to hear Bob N talk about this one.

edit: Maybe 90 days???

"Each license is renewable within 90 days prior to its expiration or at an earlier date approved by the MVD. The MVD may require an examination upon renewal. Licenses issued to drivers under age 21 will have the license expire 30 days after the driver's 21st birthday and may be renewed for a period of up to five years."

https://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/drivers-license-renewal/

I believe it is a FINCEN requirement not just the casinos. As far as I know banks also require the ID the ID to have an expiration date that has not been exceeded.

Quote: DRich

I believe it is a FINCEN requirement not just the casinos. As far as I know banks also require the ID the ID to have an expiration date that has not been exceeded.

But what about precedent set in AC that casinos are public spaces? I could see arguments made both ways =P.

Quote: DRich

I believe it is a FINCEN requirement not just the casinos. As far as I know banks also require the ID the ID to have an expiration date that has not been exceeded.

Can you please verify?

It may be bureaucratic wires crossed

But if its not a fincen requirement then its just another example of casinos thinking their rules are law

Also it should be obvious the expired ID rule is just a governmnental money grab

Once you have proven your Identification to the government to their satisfaction there should be no reason you havr to pay money every few years to prove who you are again

And expired ID has all the info as the new ID besides a possible change of address. Nothing except expiration really changes

Quote: darkoz

Well your employers are stupid

ID purpose is to identify who you are

Does your identity change because its expired?

The state usually gives a 30 day Grace. Your company should too

BTW I dont think expired food is a good comparison to ID that is expired

Soylent Green is people!

Sorry.

That's all I got.

Except. FWIW.

Once, I cashed out for $ 21k+. They did a w-9 and a CTR on me. Did not provide copies to me. I was required to provide ID to get paid.

Never heard a word about it from the IRS.

Quote: Romes

If it's a valid form of ID, I don't believe casinos can have their "own" policy to not accept them. You can't deny a valid form of government ID because it's your "internal policy," right?

Sure you can. Casinos, like any other business, reserve the right to refuse service to anyone (perhaps AC being an exception). In WA, it's common for bars to refuse vertical IDs even if they're not expired.

Quote: Deucekies

Sure you can. Casinos, like any other business, reserve the right to refuse service to anyone (perhaps AC being an exception). In WA, it's common for bars to refuse vertical IDs even if they're not expired.

I guess bars are wary of accepting vertical ID's because that means the to be customer was born in the 90's meaning they are in their 20's. I'd be wary of accepting a 90's ID myself if I did not have a scanner. In my job, we have scanners that automatically tell the customer's age on the screen. I am assuming that the bars don't have scanners like I do at Walgreen's.

There's nothing stopping a 16 year from buying a fake ID that says he was born in 1997 and using said fake ID to buy a beer if the bartender does not have a scanner. Case in point. I had a young teen attempting to buy alcohol show me an obviously fake ID that said she was born in 1992. My red alert flag was glaring as she even looked 14. I showed the ID to my managers and they told me to reject it. My coworker said something like,"She's obviously a young teen." For good measure, I scanned the ID in front of her and it was rejected. She said something like,"Okay, I'm sorry, I'll leave, bye," and ran off.

Quote: Nathan

Case in point. I had a young teen attempting to buy alcohol show me an obviously fake ID that said she was born in 1992. My red alert flag was glaring as she even looked 14. I showed the ID to my managers and they told me to reject it. My coworker said something like,"She's obviously a young teen." For good measure, I scanned the ID in front of her and it was rejected. She said something like,"Okay, I'm sorry, I'll leave, bye," and ran off.

She must have been a runaway. Most teens that age know where they can get away with buying alcohol.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Once, I cashed out for $ 21k+. They did a w-9 and a CTR on me. Did not provide copies to me. I was required to provide ID to get paid.

Never heard a word about it from the IRS.

CTR's are never given to the patron, they are now just filed online with FINCEN within 15 days of the occurrence.

Quote: darkoz

Also it should be obvious the expired ID rule is just a governmnental money grab

Once you have proven your Identification to the government to their satisfaction there should be no reason you havr to pay money every few years to prove who you are again

And expired ID has all the info as the new ID besides a possible change of address. Nothing except expiration really changes

And your photo - which is pretty much the only reason passports expire.

In most states, an expired ID is not a legal ID. I have worked in NJ, NY, MI, CA, NV. We were not allowed to accept an expired ID for any type of financial transaction. Even if it expired an hour ago, we could not take it unless you had the renewal paper from the DMV.

Now, I don't know what the state would do if you were driving on an expired license.

It’s hard to say for sure. There was a lot going on in your post, any one of which could be reason as to why the pit boss was asking for id. My guess is that years ago when you signed up for a players card they put the expiration date in their system. When you came back and their system knew it, it may prompt the pit boss to ask for id to update their system. So he may have a legitimate reason for asking for it. With that being said, pit bosses and security will say or do anything and blatantly lie about the reason why they are doing something. The most common being asking a young person for id when they know they’re over 21.

Don’t ever trust a suit or a badge in a casino. They are all scum.

Quote: Sandybestdog

Don’t ever trust a suit or a badge in a casino. They are all scum.

Hmmm. I wear a suit in the Casino. I guess you just insulted me.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm. I wear a suit in the Casino. I guess you just insulted me.


ZCore13

LMAO! :D

Quote: Sandybestdog

It’s hard to say for sure. There was a lot going on in your post, any one of which could be reason as to why the pit boss was asking for id. My guess is that years ago when you signed up for a players card they put the expiration date in their system. When you came back and their system knew it, it may prompt the pit boss to ask for id to update their system. So he may have a legitimate reason for asking for it. With that being said, pit bosses and security will say or do anything and blatantly lie about the reason why they are doing something. The most common being asking a young person for id when they know they’re over 21.

Don’t ever trust a suit or a badge in a casino. They are all scum.

Sure you say that now, but when a beggar begs you for money when they lost all of their own, suits and badges are who you will call to help you out. ;)

Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm. I wear a suit in the Casino. I guess you just insulted me.


ZCore13

Me too.

Quote: Nathan

Sure you say that now, but when a beggar begs you for money when they lost all of their own, suits and badges are who you will call to help you out. ;)

Thats not a good argument

They need to do their job AND be within the law

Most security have no qualms with breaking the law if they believe they are protecting the casinos interests

I actually had one guard tell me he wasn't losing his job even if I was right and he had no right to hold me

I dont know about most professions but whatever job I am doing if my employer asked me to do something illegal the correct answer is no and report them to authorities. Not use that as an excuse for committing the crime

Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm. I wear a suit in the Casino. I guess you just insulted me.


ZCore13

Ok but do you suggest suits be trusted in casinos?

I too find they will tell lies to APs and suspected APs

Quote: darkoz

Most security have no qualms with breaking the law if they believe they are protecting the casinos interests

I disagree 100% with that statement. I just think most casino security are naive of the laws and regulations.

Quote: DRich

I disagree 100% with that statement. I just think most casino security are naive of the laws and regulations.

And yet after all the times casinos have been scolded for false imprisonment and refusal to cash put AP winnings they continue to do these things

Thats not ignorance of the law

Quote: darkoz

And yet after all the times casinos have been scolded for false imprisonment and refusal to cash put AP winnings they continue to do these things

Thats not ignorance of the law

Actually it is a virus that may lead to Barney Fife Syndrome.

Quote: dogqck

Actually it is a virus that may lead to Barney Fife Syndrome.

The Mayberry Casino

Quote: darkoz

Ok but do you suggest suits be trusted in casinos?

I too find they will tell lies to APs and suspected APs

They are just people. They should be trusted as much as the players, bartenders, cleaners, etc. Just like in life, most are good, a few are not.


ZCore13

Quote: darkoz

Thats not a good argument

They need to do their job AND be within the law

Most security have no qualms with breaking the law if they believe they are protecting the casinos interests

I actually had one guard tell me he wasn't losing his job even if I was right and he had no right to hold me

I dont know about most professions but whatever job I am doing if my employer asked me to do something illegal the correct answer is no and report them to authorities. Not use that as an excuse for committing the crime

But SandyBestDog said ALL suits and badges were scum who couldn't be trusted. That's not the case and suits and badges are who they would call when people beg them for money. So my argument was good.

Quote: Nathan

But SandyBestDog said ALL suits and badges were scum who couldn't be trusted. That's not the case and suits and badges are who they would call when people beg them for money. So my argument was good.

Speaking as a New Yorker no one here calls suits and badges when people are begging for money

A polite no is usually all thats required

And we can get loud if we need too

This topic reminded me of a pleasant experience I had several years ago with a cashier at a Vegas casino. I was in town for a planned for day trip with buddies from LA. I was consistently doing my Hit and Run day in day out multiple times a day so I was frequently visiting the cashier.

She was beautiful. She had a beautiful smile and was a very fit. We exchanged pleasantries and one day I asked her if she was hired by this casino from a modeling agency. She just gave me a great big smile and paid me my money.

By the 4th day of my trip I was up substantially so I extended my trip another week. Again, methodically and consistently doing my hit-and-run and building up my bank. I kept cashing in chips with the beautiful cashier and she asked me how I get so lucky. I told her the only luck that I was having was every time I cash in my chips she was available. This brought another huge smile to her face so I impulsively seized the opportunity and asked for her number. She told me she never gives her number out to customers. I told her I will never play at this casino again so she cannot consider me a customer anymore.

Long story short. She gave me her number. I never played at that casino again. I wined and dined her for the rest of my stay which ended up being 3 weeks. Multiple W's on all levels. Best trip to Vegas ever! She had great energy!

Quote: WatchMeWin

This topic reminded me of a pleasant experience I had several years ago with a cashier at a Vegas casino. I was in town for a planned for day trip with buddies from LA. I was consistently doing my Hit and Run day in day out multiple times a day so I was frequently visiting the cashier.

She was beautiful. She had a beautiful smile and was a very fit. We exchanged pleasantries and one day I asked her if she was hired by this casino from a modeling agency. She just gave me a great big smile and paid me my money.

By the 4th day of my trip I was up substantially so I extended my trip another week. Again, methodically and consistently doing my hit-and-run and building up my bank. I kept cashing in chips with the beautiful cashier and she asked me how I get so lucky. I told her the only luck that I was having was every time I cash in my chips she was available. This brought another huge smile to her face so I impulsively seized the opportunity and asked for her number. She told me she never gives her number out to customers. I told her I will never play at this casino again so she cannot consider me a customer anymore.

Long story short. She gave me her number. I never played at that casino again. I wined and dined her for the rest of my stay which ended up being 3 weeks. Multiple W's on all levels. Best trip to Vegas ever! She had great energy!

You got very lucky.

I learned the hard way not to put women before AP and gambling

Quote: darkoz

You got very lucky.

I learned the hard way not to put women before AP and gambling

jackpots and dough before hoes

that's the way life goes

Quote: djatc

jackpots and dough before hoes

Haha!! Winning.

Quote: WatchMeWin

This topic reminded me of a pleasant experience I had several years ago with a cashier at a Vegas casino. I was in town for a planned for day trip with buddies from LA. I was consistently doing my Hit and Run day in day out multiple times a day so I was frequently visiting the cashier.

She was beautiful. She had a beautiful smile and was a very fit. We exchanged pleasantries and one day I asked her if she was hired by this casino from a modeling agency. She just gave me a great big smile and paid me my money.

By the 4th day of my trip I was up substantially so I extended my trip another week. Again, methodically and consistently doing my hit-and-run and building up my bank. I kept cashing in chips with the beautiful cashier and she asked me how I get so lucky. I told her the only luck that I was having was every time I cash in my chips she was available. This brought another huge smile to her face so I impulsively seized the opportunity and asked for her number. She told me she never gives her number out to customers. I told her I will never play at this casino again so she cannot consider me a customer anymore.

Long story short. She gave me her number. I never played at that casino again. I wined and dined her for the rest of my stay which ended up being 3 weeks. Multiple W's on all levels. Best trip to Vegas ever! She had great energy!

Pics or it didn't happen.

I'm just glad to know you didn't teach her your winning craps system.

Quote: AxelWolf

Pics or it didn't happen.

I'm just glad to know you didn't teach her your winning craps system.

I think he taught her his W system. The effects are telling.

This thread is taking a weird turn. :/

Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm. I wear a suit in the Casino. I guess you just insulted me.


ZCore13

Uhhhhh... Me too.