Ticket Poll corollary

The consensus on Wiz's parking ticket seems to be to pay the $32 and be done with it.
Now I am asking you to weigh in on mine.

Dad was sick with bone cancer, and one of the drugs they were giving him put him in a mental fog, to the point where he was losing control of his finances.
I stepped in to help out, but some of the bills had been lost. One was the auto insurance bill.
Dad goes into the health center at the retirement community, and I am retrieving the mail once a week.
On June 7 I finally retrieve the mail that indicates his auto insurance lapsed on May 10. Not a big deal as the car had not moved in a month anyway.
I go to the agent and pay the bill.
Dad never left the health center and passed away on June 29.

Now the NC DOT has sent dad a fine of $50 for having let his insurance lapse. I have asked for a hearing, but the clerk I was talking to said there is no point in doing the hearing because the fact is the insurance lapsed.
My argument is, an elderly man who is sick, in the hospital, and subsequently dies, should be considered extenuating circumstances, which is why they have a hearing process. If this situation is not acceptable, then why even have a hearing process?

What say y' all ? Should I fight, or just pay the $50 from the estate?

I'm sorry for your loss, Raleigh.

Pay the $50. It isn't worth the hassle. You can ask the DOT to forgive the fee and state your circumstances. A kindly worded letter to their receiveables department might do the trick. If the hearing process is the only way to resolve the issue, then that is your only recourse, and screw the clerk.

Morally - fight it. While I believe all insurance requirements are unjust in this case it was nonsensical. He wasn't driving, no insurance necessary (though NC law disagrees with me). Not to mention he's no longer beholden to the whims of the state regardless.

Realistically - you've got plenty to deal with right now. Just pay the $50 and scratch one more thing off your list.

First, sorry for your loss.

I say fight it passively. Forget the hearing - if they want the $50 that badly, let them sue the estate to get it.

Sorry for your loss Raleighcraps.
It seems wrong to me to punish someone when no harm was done under the circumstances of his mental condition and for them to try to collect it after he dies. Is there any provision with the car insurance to be able to prove financial responsibility if he had means to pay cash in case of an accident and hence not really needing insurance for the minimum amount in the first place?

Sorry for your loss, Gordy. I'd pay as it wouldn't be worth the hassle to me.

What an awful law. Getting a ticket for not paying a bill. I could see getting a ticket for driving without insurance, and then a ticket for lapsed insurance, but not because you missed a payment. If the Beast is spying on everyone to make sure the car insurance is paid, the Beast has a serious problem. If the insurance lapsed because the policy was not renewed, that's a crock. If he just missed a payment, that's a bigger crock. I'm always for fighting the government over petty issues. Serious ones too.

Sorry for your loss.

I'm with RDW: Just don't pay. Or in postalese endorse the bill: "Moved left no address (MLNA)"

Just a question for now: does the existence of this unpaid debt to the DoT prohibit the estate from transferring title of the car to someone else? I mean, does not paying the fine create a larger financial problem for you and the estate.

AS a time value function, it is a no-brainer to just pay the 'penalty'. But from the morale and sensible side, this is just plain bullshit.

I would take the do nothing route, but the car is titled in dad's name, and I don't believe the DOT will process a title change until this is resolved.

So, I seem to be faced with, pay $50 to take the easy way out, or fight an injustice over the next x months.

On a related note, I also have complete durable power of attorney for mom, who has alzheimer's disease. This is very helpful as I try to navigate the financial storm that comes with a death. However, wouldn't you know the government can screw this up too? Seems the Social Security Administration does not recognize a POA. Instead, I have to apply for a designated payee status to be able to handle mom's social security. Not a big deal, except, they won't talk to you until you have completed this step. Has to be done in person, and in this city, the local SS office is swamped on a daily basis. Basically, get in line 1/2 hour before they open, or else you can forget getting in that day.

Pay the fine it is due and just.

The insurance is on the car, not the driver. If the car is legally registered and licensed, insurance must be maintained at all times even when not being driven.

On a similar note, I had a motorcycle that I quit riding and just stored in my garage for about seven years. When I decided to bring it out again and register I was charged registration and penalties for all seven years it sat. I explained to them that it was in the garage the whole time but their argument was that since I did not return the license plate to them, it may have been operated on the road. I fought it as far as I could over many months but didn't get anywhere. The past registration and late fees cost me over $1600.

I learned a valuable lesson. Immediately return the plate to the DMV if you sell a vehicle or don't plan on driving it anymore.

Why didn't the insurance company send you a renewal and a bill in those seven years? Same question for the DMV. Don't they automatically mail you a renewal form? Mine does.

Sorry for your loss.

I favor either write a letter explaining what happened or just ignore it.

I'd be interested to hear a legal opinion about what generally happens with petty debts when somebody dies. For example, a magazine subscription.

Quote: Wizard

I'd be interested to hear a legal opinion about what generally happens with petty debts when somebody dies. For example, a magazine subscription.

Legally the estate is on the hook (unless the agreement in question states that it becomes null and void upon death). If someone dies, and they have a petty debt such as a magazine subscription, the creditor can collect the money out of the decedent's estate (which could comprise the person's bank account and whatever assets they have) and the executor of the estate (usually the decedent's spouse) is obligated to pay those debts out of the estate. If the executor refuses to pay such debts, the creditor would have to file a claim in the probate court against the estate. I can't imagine any petty creditor would go through the expense of hiring a lawyer to do this. If the estate has no money, then the creditor is out of luck.

Regarding Raleigh's situation, he should do whatever he feels morally obligated to do, but the bottom line is I think it is extremely unlikely that the DOT would pursue the $50 with the estate, it would cost them way more in legal fees.

Quote: 1BB

Why didn't the insurance company send you a renewal and a bill in those seven years? Same question for the DMV. Don't they automatically mail you a renewal form? Mine does.

I cancelled the insurance since I wasn't riding it. Yes, the DMV sent me a renewal notice the first year but I just ignored it and let the registration lapse since I wouldn't be riding it. I assumed if it was expired and I wasn't riding it I would be fine. They never sent a notice after the first year. Apparently you have to physically return the plate or else they assume it is still being used and will bill you retroactively for it.

Quote: jon

I think it is extremely unlikely that the DOT would pursue the $50 with the estate, it would cost them way more in legal fees.

As I questioned in my post and RaleighCraps confirmed in the following post, the car cannot be sold or registered by anyone else until the fee is paid. Assuming RaleighCraps doesn't want to dismantle the car for parts, the vehicle will have zero value unless the fee is paid or something else can be worked out with the DoT. By controlling titles, the state doesn't need to go to court to get you to pay (unless you are willing to scrap the vehicle).

I suppose there is always the possibility of selling it in a state that doesn't use titles and doesn't require an old title in order for someone else to register it, but I think that would create a real can of worms for someone.

Update:
I had been given until 7/18 to respond to first note.
I responded on 7/14 requesting a hearing.
On 7/17 I received a second note saying because I failed to take action , they were automatically fining me (dad) $50.
On 7/22 I call them to say I had responded, and requested a hearing.
Call taker confirms I have been scheduled for a hearing.
Today I get a letter dated 7/23 saying that they have reviewed dad's case, no hearing is required, just send in $50 penalty.
I call back today and state that I WANT my hearing.
I then tell the lady that the process states if the insurance lapsed for causes outside of your control, a hearing can be requested.
I stated "that going into the hospital and then dying would seem to be out of your control, and if this isn't, then what the hell would be considered. And why even have a hearing process, if the answer is always going to be NO."

She said she would be back in a couple of minutes, and put me on hold.
After about 5 minutes she came back on, said fax her the death certificate, and she would contact the Liability unit and get the penalty removed.

Holy Crap. Someone at the DOT that actually has a functioning brain, and can see reason.......
I think she also sensed that I was going to be a serious problem, and not drop this issue. I was prepared to fight on principle and keep appealing to higher ups until I got satisfaction......
Nice thing about being in state capitol is the head offices for DOT/DMV are right here, and gave me an escalation path, had I needed to use it.

Congrats.

That rocks! More frustration than fifty bucks is worth to me but admire your determination...