Is there a higher power?

For me, an exchange of this nature is less about winning an argument or convincing someone of something they reject than merely an effort to share what I have found and am convinced is a (and in my heart, the only) way. A crude analogy would be that an avid craps player like me would argue not that there are no other games, but that to play other games is to squander finite gaming time and resources, and potentially miss out on the optimal gaming experience. As all analogies are imperfect, I concede this could be the most imperfect. But I share what I believe is good so others may know that choice is available to them as well. Besides, the question was asked, and I simply offered an answer.

Quote: luckbalady777

For me, an exchange of this nature is less about winning an argument or convincing someone of something they reject than merely an effort to share what I have found and am convinced is a (and in my heart, the only) way.

I think there's more than that. To go with your analogy:

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A crude analogy would be that an avid craps player like me would argue not that there are no other games, but that to play other games is to squander finite gaming time and resources, and potentially miss out on the optimal gaming experience.

I do understand that. I talk about science fiction and other interests of mine all the time, including gambling. I can talk the ears off anyone who knows nothing about gambling for hours on end. But I've no stake in convincing them that they should gamble, or read science fiction, or peruse the works of H. Beam Piper, or root for the Steelers and swear eternal hatred on the Cowboys <wink> The last time I had a long, long gambling conversation, the other person began to tell me about chess. It was very informative, but I wasn't tempted to take up chess.

But hobbies, pastimes and careers, important as they may be, are also largely a matter of individual choice, without consequence to most people other than those choosing one over another.

The question then is: do you have a stake of any kind in guiding or turning people towards your set of beliefs? I don't mean a financial stake, but an emotional, or spiritual, or practical one, among others, or a combination of them. Or perhaps you feel or think you have a duty to do so?

I ask becasue I'm constantly amazed by the amount of people who've tried to convert me to their faith. I've seen just about every method, from hostility, to passive aggressiveness, to constant soft sell, and too many others. I've even gotten threats.

On that I'll give you some advice: don't patronize your prospects. Saying things like "your inability or unwillingness to trust the accounts of Jesus' Resurrection," for example, is loaded to the scuppers and then some. consider:

1) The tacit assumption that, of course, the wild, illogical, contrary to all evidence, claims of the Bible are true (and not just true, but the Truth)

2) The shifting of the burden of proof to the audience rather than the claimant.

3) The implication of a defect in the prospect. The implication is that but for some personal character flaw, or to be more charitable for some personal circumstances, I am unable or unwilling to see the Truth as revealed by god.

4) The word "trust" is very interesting in this context, too. It goes with the assumption made in the first point, but it also implies the credibility of such fantastic claims is beyond question. It's more of the same, but more subtly expressed.

Now, I've tried to be polite, but to illustrate the kind of feeling this apporach has on me, let me paraphrase Shakespeare: The fault lies in your belief, not in your marks that they don't want to be conned.

I don't mean to offer any offense, harsh as that phrase is, but merely want to point out how I felt. The first thing which came to mind was much worse (and witier, too).

The Higher Power actually spoke to me once, and I now believe that if you are so incredibly dense and stupid that there is no other way God will manifest to you if you sincerely ask his help.
I was 36 and an active alcoholic and drug addict. I was dying from this malady. (in more ways than one JB) I had been going to AA meetings for 2 weeks when a connection out of Miami called me and asked me to act as security for a transaction that she was doing the next day. I was promised an oz of what was probably 90% peruvian flake as payment for my services. I went crazy obsessing about this. I was at a turning point in life. Somehow out of all the S*&t advice I got from 2 weeks in AA I remembered someone saying that you had to ask God to remove the obsession. I got on my knees and prayed thusly "God, I want to get loaded" A bright light filled my head and this voice that sounded like an Alabama overhauls wearing redneck farmer said to me "What you want ain't that important" The desire was gone and I got in bed and had the best nights sleep I had had in years. Been clean and sober ever since (25 years in October) Gal from Miami and the guy who went with the gal did 7 years for selling 2 kilos of cocaine to some undercover cops. I try to live by the advice that farmer gave me. He also likes winking at me once in a while but that is other stories.

Quote: ncfatcat

and I now believe that if you are so incredibly dense and stupid that there is no other way God will manifest to you

People see the Virgin Mary in a piece of toast,
or rust stains on the side of a refridgerator.

Good enough for me. Apparently god is
everywhere and in everything.

I think the more relevant question is -"Is the universe finite or infinite?"

At least I enjoy this hymm for the wayward I just found.

There's no bouncing ball, but you can follow along with the words.

Quote: luckbalady777

For me, an exchange of this nature is less about winning an argument or convincing someone of something they reject than merely an effort to share what I have found ... I simply offered an answer.

I hope I wasn't too harsh. I would say if sharing was your goal, go right ahead, blogging is good for that. But to include that question in your original post defeats your stated purpose IMO.

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an avid craps player like me

I will come right out and say you must be an interesting person!

Quote: Nareed

It's going around, you know. I've heard any number of people telling Jews they can embrace Jesus and remain Jewish.

There are some Jews who do just that, and go around claiming this dual nature. I suppose one can consider himself racially Jewish and religiously Christian, but it's an oddity for sure to me.

Quote: odiousgambit

There are some Jews who do just that, and go around claiming this dual nature. I suppose one can consider himself racially Jewish and religiously Christian, but it's an oddity for sure to me.

I won't get into the theology of it, but it's about the same thing as telling a Jew he can eat pork stuffed with shrimp and still keep kosher.

Quote: Nareed

I ask becasue I'm constantly amazed by the amount of people who've tried to convert me to their faith.

Really? I highly doubt that that amazes you. Imagine if you did believe in God as fervently as you presently don't believe in God. Wouldn't it be natural to try and convert everyone to that 'correct' thinking? You certainly are trying to convince (convert?) everyone on this forum that you are correct, and your 'faith' that there is no God is correct. By the way, I agree with the great majority of your points....

Quote: SOOPOO

Really? I highly doubt that that amazes you.

Oh, ye of little faith :P

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Wouldn't it be natural to try and convert everyone to that 'correct' thinking?

It might. But I hope even then I'd retain a measure of sanity and courtesy and not try to fit everyone else into the same show, whether they want to fit or not. But it won't ever happen. I give you better odds of, say, finding a green cheese factory on the Moon operated by fairies and unicorns.

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You certainly are trying to convince (convert?) everyone on this forum that you are correct,

When have I ever done that? When have I tried to convince anyone they should abandon their beliefs, or even promised any betterment in their lives if they'd only throw off the shackles of faith?

I do try to push my argument, yes, because I am right. I'm stubborn that way. I'd argue for a spherical Earth, too, against a flat one. But I've never tried to convert anyone. I do anti-religion arguments, too, because that may prove a good influence in the long run. But I've never tried to get anyone to believe abnything.

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and your 'faith' that there is no God is correct.

You know, quotation marks nothwithstanding, how many times do I have to explain there's no faith involved in refusing to believe in something for which there is NO evidence whatsoever? Do you require faith in order not to believe in astrology, numerology, phrenology, dianetics, etc?

Quote: Nareed

I hope even then I'd retain a measure of sanity and courtesy and not try to fit everyone else into the same show, whether they want to fit or not. But it won't ever happen.

This is sarcasim, right? Because I've known bigoted, beer chugging, nascar watching, gay bashing red-necks that are more tolerant and open minded towards their fellow man than what you show on this forum about others lifestyles, activities, and beliefs.

I have a "higher power" story, too.

This happened in the late '70s or early '80s. [edit: It was '73 or '74, because I hadn't re-enrolled in college yet.] I'd been tripping pretty hard that night, and of course smoked up, and drinking, too. I was driving home, about 4AM, and I was so out of it I decided I just couldn't drive any more. So I pulled off the road and shut my eyes.

I woke up and it was bright sun. I was still tripping, back then we took something called windowpane, you put it in your eye. It lasted a while. Anyhow, I woke up, and I was laying on the front seat of my '67 Skylark, and looking me right in the face through the window was a bunch of little kids. And then they were gone, and I sat up, and I was parked at a school bus stop! The kids got on the bus, and it pulled away, and... I was pulled off the side of the road, asleep, drunk and stoned and tripping, right across from the West Mifflin Police Station.



So I put the car in gear (it had been idling for probably a couple hours) and drove off, and I thought, "Thank God no cops came out and tossed my sorry ass in jail."



And then I checked the ash tray, and there was half a joint in there (do they still call them that?) so as I drove the rest of the way home I smoked it to calm my nerves.

A few years later I quit drugs. But not before I had some other close calls, including a couple a lot closer than that one. I figured that if I stayed away from the people who I hung around with when I was getting high, and didn't buy any dope myself, I could do it. And it worked.

I do not think this happened by mere chance. Everything happens for a reason. You just have to examine more closely to understand the whole incident clearly. Thanks for sharing this here at