Is there a higher power?
Quote: NareedIf it were my child dying painfully after knowing only pain throughout his short, short life, the last thing on my mind would be the whereabouts of some mythical character.
Having been with a family a couple of weeks ago in the hospital as their young beautiful son, you should see his great big blue eyes, dies you better believe the one and only thing on their mind was the whereabouts of God! It was also the one and only thing that gave them hope. As we prayed to the God who was crucified and risen we all found there was someone else with us no stranger to carrying the cross who could carry us through this difficult time as well.
Quote: FrGambleHaving been with a family a couple of weeks ago in the hospital as their young beautiful son, you should see his great big blue eyes, dies you better believe the one and only thing on their mind was the whereabouts of God!
This is going to sound cruel and maybe it even is, but it's also the truth: having a dying child confers no moral status, either good or bad, on the parents.
Quote:It was also the one and only thing that gave them hope.
See above. Hope for what? That their son would recover? How is a mythical being going to do that? If they wished for something concrete, it should be for more advanced medicine.
Quote:As we prayed to the God who was crucified and risen we all found there was someone else with us no stranger to carrying the cross who could carry us through this difficult time as well.
I can't find any meaning in that sentence. Did god's phony "sacrifice" (we've been through that, and you keep bringing it up) heal their son? Did it make everything all right? Is it any consolation to them that women are stoned in Iran, or that children as beautiful as their son die of starvation in Africa?
If I believed in god, and my child were dying of something god gave him (such as a genetic defect), I'd be mad as hell at the cruelty of letting me have a child only to take him away. I'd draw no comfort in brown-nosing to this deity. Suffering is not a virtue, no matter how well Jesus chose to pretend to die horribly.
Quote: FrGambleCan I ask you what your answer is to these questions are? What do you believe and what would you say to someone going through the tough stuff you mentioned?
I think I know your answer and I don't think I will like it, but who knows I may be pleasantly surprised.
Talk about avoiding the question, what would you say?
I hate to say this but if you had prayed as earnestly to Odin or Zeus, the results would have been identical. The parents would have taken comfort in the knowledge that their son is now in Valhalla ( not the one in Westchester, NY ) with his creator. This just sounds like a whole lot of failure.Quote: FrGambleHaving been with a family a couple of weeks ago in the hospital as their young beautiful son, you should see his great big blue eyes, dies you better believe the one and only thing on their mind was the whereabouts of God! It was also the one and only thing that gave them hope. As we prayed to the God who was crucified and risen we all found there was someone else with us no stranger to carrying the cross who could carry us through this difficult time as well.
Quote: FrGambleTalk about avoiding the question, what would you say?
When you answer my question, I will consider yours.
The short answer is "Yes", Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, Elohim, Jehovah, Jesus and Ahura Mazda have exactly the same compassion and sensitivity for you and the parents of that poor dead boy with the big blue eyes.Quote: FrGambleI hate to say it but Odin or Zeus have nothing to say to me or this family. Do They have any idea what I go through? Do They know what it is like to lose a loved one? (edited to capitalize the pronouns of the deities)
You're deceiving yourselfQuote: FrGambleThe answer in every case is no
Ganesha is with them every bit as much as Jesus and He (Ganesha) is a heck of a lot more interesting to look at.Quote: FrGamble..except for Jesus. It is not just that their son is in Heaven that gives them comfort, it is that God is with them now and draws close to them in their difficulty and is not some distant God cheering us on from the sidelines.
What kind of "Father" are you? That last bit doesn't even make sense.Quote: FrGambleOne without faith can only see failure with the eyes of faith you can see hope and love.
'Tis but a crutch for the weak and the lame.
Consider that belief in a "higher power" is a cornerstone to the twelve step program; now consider the target audience.
'nuf said, except the world would be a better place if only people believed in themselves, and in their own power.
Quote: FrGambleOne without faith can only see failure with the eyes of faith you can see hope and love.
The turkey who sees the farmer is excited because he gets fed every day when the farmer shows up.
Even though he may be mistaken tomorrow, at least his faith was based on some evidence.
Your faith seems to be inferior to the turkeys'. It doesn't seem based on evidence, and if your head gets chopped off, you'll still give thanks for the farmer.
Quote: FrGambleQuote: RaspberryCheeseBlintz
Would you care to explain why, for the vast majority (tens of thousands of years) of our species' existence, this god-fellow could NOT be troubled to offer this succor and help, and was willing to let our flea-bitten savage ancestors simply suffer? Sure seems like a distinct "lack of love". Or that the fellow as described in Holy Book Pt I, aka the Old Testament, is a stark raving homicidal maniac...and it is therefore strange that he would suddenly become all nice and fuzzy on account of hoping to please a band of Semites in the eastern Med? [Funny thing, some of the Gnostics thought that, as is obvious, the OT God couldn't possibly be "All-Good", and that therefore there must've been TWO Gods in play. An idea for which they suffered in various ways from those "true Christians", naturally.]
For the entire time of our existence we have sought after and believed in many manifestations of God to give us succor and help us. Many of these primitive religions share common ideas and images. All of this leading to the revelation of Jesus Christ. There was no time that God was not present to help us and in my opinion it was all leading to the culmination of God's love and revelation in the person of Jesus Christ who changed everything.
You mean for example those Aztecs who believed that the Sun and Moon gods demanded that they rip the hearts out of tens
of thousands of captured enemies, else said deities not return to their usual places in the sky?
That sounds more like sucker than succor.
And, after 2,000 years, your claim remains a minority proposition. It is most strange that an all-powerful, all-loving god cannot express itself more effectively. 3 in 1 God, Jesus in N. America, No Jesus, Mohammed > Jesus, Buddhism, Taoism, Zorostarianism, animism, Satanism...you all blaspheme each other, often to the point of violence.
You should be firing your deity for gross incompetence.
Quote:
I always find it a little funny and somewhat annoying the characterizations of God in the Old Testament by people who I can only guess have not really read it. The largest section of the OT and in fact the Bible is the Psalms, which are beautiful and loving prayers between God and His people. Then there is the Song of Songs, a PG-13 love poem that describes the love of God and His people. There are many, many more examples and stories of amazing kindness and love on the part of God that far outnumber what often people naively point to as the example of a mean and vindictive God.
As is evident to anyone who bothers to read it, that creature you claim to worship a) constantly orders the massacre of countless persons, including many innocents, b) supports polygamy and incest, c) is above all else infinitely vain (it is most odd that such a powerful being would care two liters of spit what a bunch of primates on an obscure rock think about him, but such is one of your many strange assertions). He's a baaaaad character.
Oh, have you heard? The Jews will tell you, while trying to stifle a spot of laughter, that the word "virgin" in the New Testament is
an obvious, gross mis-translation (one of many mistakes, mistranscribings, and blatant distortions) and the real meaning of the relevant phrase is simply young girl.
Imagine, all that hoo-haw built on the scriblings of a dyslexic, if not dishonest, 1st century monk!
Quote: NareedIf I believed in god, and my child were dying of something god gave him (such as a genetic defect), I'd be mad as hell at the cruelty of letting me have a child only to take him away. I'd draw no comfort in brown-nosing to this deity. Suffering is not a virtue, no matter how well Jesus chose to pretend to die horribly.
Amen, sister. Couldn't have said it better myself.
*Even thoughtful humans, never mind higher beings, must puzzle over the outrage over early death. Undeniably sad, it is still a fact we all must die. I can be sad, but not outraged.
*Torture before death, degrading imprisonment before death, genocide, etc. ... these circumstances call we feel call for an intervention by a loving God, and when we see such evil go on we assume God has done nothing. But I would have to say we do not know that. There is evidence that, if there is life after death, there will be no memory of the bad parts. I cite people who *nearly* get killed in, say, car accidents, and afterwards say they have no memory of what happened.
*The world is a mess and I don't know why so much evil is allowed to prevail; but it comes I think from all of us being given Free Will. God is extremely reluctant to intervene against this Free Will and in our time really does not intervene.
*A bit of what I have gotten from Christian teaching: God is profoundly aloof, or Holy, and although knows when each sparrow falls does not emotionally react as we might. As an acknowledgement, though, of the circumstance of being included in the fate for all living creatures, death, he has given his creation Man an Advocate. Man unfortunately is very much also an animal, unsuited for Holy presence. This Advocate, Jesus, answers the charge of our imperfections [I need not list them] that each and every one of us has, in order to have life after death, but we must live a certain life and not reject him.
*Deciding to be your own attorney conducting your own defense in this Court does not work out well. [g]
*There is something profoundly wrong about extinguishing intelligent life in death that we demand from the Universe to be answered. Saying it that way highlights the Aloof bit. I am trying to absorb the above as the answer while dealing with wavering faith about it. So that is my journey.
Quote: s2dbakerThe short answer is "Yes", Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, Elohim, Jehovah, Jesus and Ahura Mazda have exactly the same compassion and sensitivity for you and the parents of that poor dead boy with the big blue eyes.
I think you are mistaking these entities for your made-up belief that there is no God. You and your strange and ridiculous idea of nothingness is the only one that has exactly zero compassion or sensitivity.
Quote: JBIf you disbelieve and go against God's word enough (which I have done), then God's existence will be revealed to you.
How many decades will it take? I've already gone through several.
Quote: rxwine
Your faith seems to be inferior to the turkeys'. It doesn't seem based on evidence, and if your head gets chopped off, you'll still give thanks for the farmer.
It is a little known fact that turkey's have faith as do most of the farm animals, the only one who has no faith is the ass. (Sorry for the bad joke)
Anyway faith in God is based on evidence that we have rehashed many times here on the forum. Evidence is all around you bringing us to ask the question, why is there something rather than nothing? The something that exists has beauty and order to it. Modern Cosmology continues to show us that the Universe began from nothing in the Big Bang. There are billions and billions of people throughout the ages who attest to knowing and loving God (a few of whom might know a little more than you do). Are you looking for some big neon sign or signature in the stars that God did it? The fact is there is more evidence supporting the belief that a Higher Power created the universe than there is supporting the belief that your coffee this morning is safe to drink. This shouldn't stop you from taking a sip nor should it stop you from believing in God.
Quote: rxwineHow many decades will it take? I've already gone through several.
Commit all 7 of the deadly sins like I have, and you'll find out. However, please don't.
Quote: rxwineHow many decades will it take? I've already gone through several.
There is a term for still not changing error of one's ways, "incorrigible". I'm just imagining you are ignoring the signals you have been given, since your reply would imply you go against God's word 'enough'. Of course your answer may mostly be joking, and I did get a chuckle.
Quote: odiousgambitThere is a term for still not changing error of one's ways, "incorrigible". I'm just imagining you are ignoring the signals you have been given, since your reply would imply you go against God's word 'enough'. Of course your answer may mostly be joking, and I did get a chuckle.
Good point. I do seem to be incorrigible... fear is a terrible thing.
Quote: RaspberryCheeseBlintz
You should be firing your deity for gross incompetence.
As is evident to anyone who bothers to read it, that creature you claim to worship a) constantly orders the massacre of countless persons, including many innocents, b) supports polygamy and incest, c) is above all else infinitely vain (it is most odd that such a powerful being would care two liters of spit what a bunch of primates on an obscure rock think about him, but such is one of your many strange assertions). He's a baaaaad character.
Oh, have you heard? The Jews will tell you, while trying to stifle a spot of laughter, that the word "virgin" in the New Testament is
an obvious, gross mis-translation (one of many mistakes, mistranscribings, and blatant distortions) and the real meaning of the relevant phrase is simply young girl.
You should be fired for gross ignorance and arrogance.
Please read it someday and you will find out a) God constantly is creating covenants of love with humanity after they learn important lessons about the destructive power of sin and the fact that your sin effects others, even the innocents. These lessons only need to be learned once and you can see God, like a good teacher gradually building towards the revelation of Christ. As you mentioned earlier it was not only the Aztecs but many people were still involved in pagan religions that included bloodshed and violence. Slowly but surely these religions have been wiped away by the Old Testament and finnaly by the power of Christ, who showed once and for all the destructive nature of violence in religion by becoming the innocent one whose blood was shed. b) again a gradual movement away from polygamy so that by the time of Christ the image of God's love for His people can be described in the terms of a husband and a wife. Again read the Song of Songs and some of the psalms. c) [on this point you got closest to making some sense] God is madly in love with humanity and cares about these human beings in a way that can only be described as infatuation. He freely loves them and God wants desperately for them to freely love Him in return. He's an awesome, all-powerful, and all-loving character.
Hey let me tell you once, there is an unwritten rule in disagreements that you leave mothers out of it. Do not be bringing Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, my Blessed Mother, and the greatest human being (who was not God, of course) ever into this!
I'm wondering however, if there are particular members of this forum who do not believe in their particular notion of an organized religion but believe in a higher power.
Quote: RaspberryCheeseBlintzAs is evident to anyone who bothers to read it, that creature you claim to worship a) constantly orders the massacre of countless persons, including many innocents, b) supports polygamy and incest, c) is above all else infinitely vain (it is most odd that such a powerful being would care two liters of spit what a bunch of primates on an obscure rock think about him, but such is one of your many strange assertions). He's a baaaaad character.
It is through suffering and having things not always go your way that you can know that God loves you. Having everything you want and everything go your way would NOT be a good time. There is an episode of the Twilight Zone that the Wizard was describing to me once over dinner, where a guy died and went to Heaven. He was playing pool and everything was going his way; all 15 balls went into a pocket on the first shot, every time. Whatever the dead guy wanted, he got. Naturally, he got bored with this real quick.
Can you imagine how boring it would be to, for example, play a slot machine and hit the top prize on every single spin, every single time, for the rest of eternity? Do you see how useless money would become at that point? It might sound like your idea of a good time, but it certainly doesn't sound like mine, even though it's something I probably thought I wanted when I was younger, blind, and stupid.
That's the lesson: not getting everything you want all the time, is how you can know that God loves you.
Quote: FrGambleAnyway faith in God is based on evidence that we have rehashed many times here on the forum. Evidence is all around you bringing us to ask the question, why is there something rather than nothing? The something that exists has beauty and order to it.
There's an argument for a god, but not much else as far as evidence.
All you really need in a random string of cards, is enough cards and enough time. As they are dealt out, you begin to see order: 4 of kinds, groups of four of kinds, and even groupings of royal flushes.
The universe being vast should have small pockets of "beauty and order" just like a random string will generate recognizable patterns, if one were looking for such patterns.
Can you demonstrate such patterns in random generations? You can do that. You can't find a god though.
The god of the Judeo-Christian bible demands that He be worshiped above all. He has such an inferiority complex about that issue that he once flooded the entire Earth. Someone that insecure is bound to leave around a magical neon sign as a reminder of the consequences of irritating that neurosis.Quote: FrGambleAre you looking for some big neon sign or signature in the stars that God did it?
There is beauty and order all around us because we put it there. We look at something and decide for ourselves if it's beautiful or ordered.
Quote: odiousgambit*Even thoughtful humans, never mind higher beings, must puzzle over the outrage over early death. Undeniably sad, it is still a fact we all must die. I can be sad, but not outraged.
The good father claims we're all made by god. Now, what does that mean? I can see two possible meanings:
1) God set up the basic design of humanity, and pressumably all other living beings down to viruses, and allows nature to take its course.
2) God personally designs every person, dog, cat, flea and bacterium, among others, accordign to his inscrutable standards.
Ok, in case 1, god's guilty of a very flawed design, which allows for things like deadly genetic defects, such as Tay Sachs and others. In case 2, god very much in purpose makes children who will die not just early, but willa lso suffer almost every single moment of their short lives.
Can you see the outrage now?
Quote: NareedCan you see the outrage now?
But that is outrage over suffering, not early death per se.
If we are allowed to complain to God, as sometimes is done in the Old Testament, I also would like to complain about congenital defects, something that has affected our family. I don't have an answer to a lot of things, not just this. But we will understand more "by and by", as the old gospel song says.
Quote: odiousgambitBut that is outrage over suffering, not early death per se.
Forget the suffering. Suppose the kid dies quietly and painlessly, but inevitably, by age four. It's the same outrage, whether god did a bad design or whether he did it on purpose.
Quote: FrGambleI hate to say it but Odin or Zeus have nothing to say to me or this family.
I think you missed what s2dbaker meant.
You're saying that praying to your god gives you comfort, as it did to the parents of the dying boy. I won't argue with that. I won't even criticize it. People ought to cope with tragedy however they need to.
But praying to your god, or to Odin, or Zeus, or Satan for that matter, will have the same practical effect on the boys health and chances for recovery: zero.
That's Reverend s2dbaker!Quote: NareedI think you missed what s2dbaker meant.
Quote: NareedBut praying to your god, or to Odin, or Zeus, or Satan for that matter, will have the same practical effect on the boys health and chances for recovery: zero.
It has been shown that positive attitudes, confidence, and relaxation lead to more positive outcomes, while stress, depression, and a negative attitude leads to more negative outcomes. I'll refer to this link at livescience.com.
So, a belief in a 'good' higher power means that a prayer to said being may have a tendency to bring a more positive outcome. A prayer to Satan probably won't because he isn't recognized as a "good" higher power. I don't think Zeus was particular "good" either, where as most people practicing their faith will say that their God represents the "ultimate good". So, if you pray to God, believing that there's a chance that your prayer will be answered, you will have a positive attitude, and a positive attitude tends to have positive outcomes, if only slightly so.
Take a look at Gabrielle Giffords. What would her outcome have been if she wasn't positive (she is Jewish)? Probably not the same.
I guess what I am saying is that though it is a crutch, a belief in a good higher power usually will lead to better things in one's life. It's a circular argument of course. A positive result will result in more belief.
Quote: boymimboIt has been shown that positive attitudes, confidence, and relaxation lead to more positive outcomes, while stress, depression, and a negative attitude leads to more negative outcomes. I'll refer to this link at livescience.com.
Maybe so. But how do the parents praying over a child provide a positive attitude in the child? Especially in a child too youg to speak or understand? Further, how do prayers from anyone at all miles away from a patient provide any positive attitude for that patient? He might as well cast a favorable horoscope.
A positive attitude does not have to depend on prayer, either. I certainly wouldn't get into a positive mood if you were to pray in my hospital room if I were sick. At best I'd be annoyed. If you told me people are praying for me, I'd thank them for their concern, but ask them not to bother. I'm not certain how it would affect my mood.
I suppose a religious person might obtain a mroe positive atitude if he were told people are praying for him. But the important part is "being told." He'd likely feel that way whether anyone actually prayed for him or no one did, so long as he believes it.
I may belive a positive attitude can affect your physical state. But I dont' ebleive it's the determining factor. I've seen people in no postion to ahve any kind of mood, like being sedated or otherwise unconscious, recover very nicely. I'd still prefer good doctors and nurses.
Oh, and if you're dying for lack of a donor heart, all the positive attitude and prayer won't help you survive. It may make your last moments better, but won't add a second to your lifespan.
Quote: JBHaving everything you want and everything go your way would NOT be a good time.
I think a lot of people miss that in order to recognize and enjoy happiness, you need to know sadness, so that you can tell the difference. I think by the way a lot of people here talk, they want a God that locks them in a closet for their entire life, just like these stories that surface from time to time where parents keep a child locked in a closet for their life in order to protect them from any harm or exposure to evil in the world.
Quote: boymimboI'm wondering however, if there are particular members of this forum who do not believe in their particular notion of an organized religion but believe in a higher power.
I do. I mentioned this earlier before the thread got totally derailed. You only need to look around earth and the cosmos to see a higher power at work. Organized religion is fundamentally flawed because it is a construct of man, whom is flawed. There are some good aspects to the different religions and there are some good men involved in running the various religions. But, as with mankind, there is both good and bad.
I suspect that people who worship Satan do so because they expect a 'Good' final result, in whatever form that may manifest. After all, there are some people who believe that back on May 21st, when Jesus was supposed to destroy the Earth (remember Harold Camping?) that is was Satan who defeated Jesus thus saving all of humanity from Jesus' wrath. And the people who pray to Satan will tell you that it was because they prayed to Satan that the world was saved.Quote: boymimboSo, a belief in a 'good' higher power means that a prayer to said being may have a tendency to bring a more positive outcome. A prayer to Satan probably won't because he isn't recognized as a "good" higher power.
Quote: s2dbaker... the people who pray to Satan
Glad to see you seem to exclude yourself from this congregation, I was wondering if you were the Minister, as you seem to be a Minister of something Dark. [just ribbing you a bit].
Quote: Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 21:27When the ungodly curseth Satan, he curseth his own soul.
Quote: kpI think a lot of people miss that in order to recognize and enjoy happiness, you need to know sadness, so that you can tell the difference.
That's wrong. You don't need to know fire in order to recognize water, nor know red to recognize blue. Also you don't need evil to know good.
Fact is you will know sadness, and fear, and pain, and anger, and a host of other negative emotions over the course of your life, because that's how life is. You'll also know joy, happiness, satisfaction,a ccomplishment and other positive emotions, because, again, that's how life is. But you don't need one to recognize or appreciate or avoid the other.
Quote:I think by the way a lot of people here talk, they want a God that locks them in a closet for their entire life,
The one person who came closest to expressing such a wish was a very devout beliver.
Quote: NareedI assume you believe that. I ahve to ask: what do you think of that?
I think it would be horrible, and I mean truly awful, if it were so. It would mean a bright story idea I had wasn't due to my creativity, or my effort to think of one, but because someone or something decreed I should have it. It would mean when I decide to expend the time and effort to accomplish something, it wasn't my choice but someone else's and imposed on me.
It also means people who suffer a grave injustice do so for a reason. What reason can justify maiming by a thug, or being used as an experimental subject in a concentration camp, or being burned at the stake, or dying in the WTC on 9/11?
Sorry to not get back with you sooner... and Happy Thanksgiving!
Okay, I thought a lot about what you said... I actually do believe that everything happens for a reason, but I think the idea can be broadened to include our choices. Chaos theory argues that every single thing affects every other thing in the world. If you think about it, our actions are unknown in the future and reflected on by looking at the past. If we could go back in time and change a certain decision, we may or may not. But since we can't go back to the past, you could argue (and I do believe) that the decision or action or whatever was inevitable, because that was the one that was chosen.
I think that was confusing. Let's use an example: Let's say I play a slot machine. I hit the jackpot. The precise moment I hit the button caused the RNG to create a combination that allowed me to win. If I had sneezed, and I was a half-millisecond off, I may not hit it. If I knew the future, I would of course hit anything at the precise moment needed. In retrospect, I was destined to win the jackpot... therefore everything happened for a reason.
Bad things can happen too... but if in reflection you know there was a reason (no matter how horrific it is) it allows you to cope with the hardships and find solace. My one set of grandparents were killed in a car accident before I was born. My grandfather was an Episcopalian priest. I can't imagine what my mother must have gone through, but for some reason, it happened and acceptance that there is no way to change it gave my family the support it needed to get through such a trying time (according to my father, I wasn't born at the time).
Quote: NicksGamingStuffMy spouse is jewish (funny story my mom said I can handle you being gay but I don't know if I can handle you marrying a jewish person (she was joking)) and we have had some disagreements about celebrating religious holidays: I told him he can do what ever he wants but I do not want to be a part of it and if we have kids (adopt) they will not be raised in a religious setting.
I have concerns about this comment on multiple levels, some of which I'm not comfortable posting in the public forum (and no, they don't have anything to do with gay parenting...). If you are interested in an outside opinion, message me and I will ask you some tough questions.
Now for the public forum: As I mentioned, I'm not religious as I do not attend church. However, a lot of people neglect to see one thing that religion provides in this day in age... STRUCTURE!
My sister is Episcopalian (non-practicing), and her husband is atheist (very strong). My adorable niece has three options: 1) Raised Episcopalian, 2) Raised Catholic (by his parents), and 3) No religion. My sister and brother-in-law have vowed that she will be the one to make the choice. I don't believe kids at that age should be given the option to choose. Churches, synagogues, and the like provide structure and often being involved in such activities give balance to a families life. Sometimes the beliefs overwhelm the families... but I think it's important to have structure in a child's life... (Incidentally, I think my niece should be raised Catholic, because you can always step down from that easily).
As a result, I think you need to have a very important conversation with your spouse about how you are going to provide any structure to a child if you adopt. Just my two cents...
Quote: TiltpoulSorry to not get back with you sooner... and Happy Thanksgiving!
You too.
Quote:I think that was confusing. Let's use an example: Let's say I play a slot machine. I hit the jackpot. The precise moment I hit the button caused the RNG to create a combination that allowed me to win. If I had sneezed, and I was a half-millisecond off, I may not hit it. If I knew the future, I would of course hit anything at the precise moment needed. In retrospect, I was destined to win the jackpot... therefore everything happened for a reason.
So nothing you do matters. You were destined to fial, or to succeed, or to win the jackpot, or to gamble away all your money. You're a chess piece on the board, and can't even tell who's playing?
And you're ok thinking this way?
Quote: Nareed
So nothing you do matters. You were destined to fail, or to succeed, or to win the jackpot, or to gamble away all your money. You're a chess piece on the board, and can't even tell who's playing?
And you're ok thinking this way?
Again, this is in retrospect. We make decisions in the present that ultimately affect an outcome in the future. We look back at that decision or action and we can't change that. Thus, everything that happened came from a result of that decision. What choice do we have? There's nothing wrong with this thinking as long as you don't allow that to affect your decisions in the present. I know whatever choice I make will affect my future. Then whatever happens happens...
By the way, this isn't entirely limited to big decisions. My decision to type this has a reason to it. And my decision to watch the Texas/A&M game was also destined to be.
Quote: TiltpoulAgain, this is in retrospect. We make decisions in the present that ultimately affect an outcome in the future. We look back at that decision or action and we can't change that. Thus, everything that happened came from a result of that decision. What choice do we have?
But that doesn't amke sense. You made choices you no longer can change, true. But you made your choices freely. You did not make the only choice possible, nor was anything "destined" to be. You might ahve made different choices.
Quote:There's nothing wrong with this thinking as long as you don't allow that to affect your decisions in the present.
How can you not let it affect your decisions? If everything's been deicided already, if your'e a character in a play, what do your choices matter?
What is impossible for any thinking person, is to act as if choices don't matter and everything is pre-destined to happen in a certain way. Try it and see. You might as well try to reach the Moon by flapping your arms.
Quote: luckbalady777So, Nareed, at the core of this rests your inability or unwillingness to trust the accounts of Jesus' Resurrection. Would you agree?
No. At the core of "this" rests the impossibility of the claims made by all religions past and present.
Quote: TheNightflyOh geez, here we go.
I laughed out loud at this!
I'd get some popcorn, but it's time for bed here in the east. The Ravens just took down the 49ers, and I have to go to work tomorrow.
Quote: MoscaThe Ravens just took down the 49ers...
And Miami gave the 'boys a scare. Not sure what Detroit would have done if that running back could have stayed healthy.
Re: the current thread topic, it is said in some eastern religion that life has the contradiction that we have both Predestination and Free Will. They each exclude the other yet both are true. I often think Christianity should teach this too, but it means embracing a contradiction.
Quote: luckbalady777This discussion evokes my first ever post. I have really enjoyed the perspectives. I found myself understanding Nareed's apprehension toward Christian faith because I once had similar reservations. The tipping point for me was when I became convinced of the historical accounts and validity of the Resurrection of Jesus. Without that, nothing else in Christianity makes sense or even matters, but with it, nothing matters more. So, Nareed, at the core of this rests your inability or unwillingness to trust the accounts of Jesus' Resurrection. Would you agree?
Oh my, I think you are too far down the road of your own journey to still relate to someone starting out. That kind of talk raises the hackles of all but the already converted. You should also know that if Nareed was to all of a sudden announce she had an epiphany, we should expect her to mean she was embracing her Jewish upbringing. Ouch, to say that to a Jew is to say you don't know any Jews!
BTW also with the greatest caution and careful tone of voice tell someone you are "praying for them", even if meant sincerely, since there are many erring Christians who will say that to someone to get their goat, knowing it will be received that way too. So I am saying certain seemingly sincere language is precluded for us.
A while ago someone mentioned that one of the reasons this forum is so great (besides two great webmasters) is that it is self policed by some older guys who have some objectivity and can talk sense into people. As a young guy, just turned 35, I appreciate the PMs and help that some of my elders have given me to back off a little bit. Peace.
Quote: odiousgambitOh my, I think you are too far down the road of your own journey to still relate to someone starting out. That kind of talk raises the hackles of all but the already converted.
Well, now, you see, this is the kind of thing that bugs me. I'm not on any kind of journey. I'm not looking for "answers," or searching for "spirituality," or trying to figure out whether there's a god of some sort.
Quote:You should also know that if Nareed was to all of a sudden announce she had an epiphany,
Should that happen, grab a strait jacket and locate a padded cell. You don't know what could follow ;)
Quote:we should expect her to mean she was embracing her Jewish upbringing.
That's very unlikely. How unlikely? I'd bet you a million dollars you'll hit the fire bet on all points ten times, plus one, before I set foot in a synagogue to pray of my own free will. But that would be a sucker bet, of course, even if we counted a Reform synagogue.
Quote:Ouch, to say that to a Jew is to say you don't know any Jews!
It's going around, you know. I've heard any number of people telling Jews they can embrace Jesus and remain Jewish.
