What is this BS?

I'm listening to the Great Courses lectures on the Foundations of Western Civilization. On the lecture about Calvin, the professor makes it clear Calvin's doctrine states people are predestined to either be saved or dammned and they can't do anything about it. I take this to mean, then, that God creates people who will, through no responsibility of their own, end up in Hell for all eternity.

So, 1) what kind fo evil, sadistic, deity do these people believe in and why?

2) How can one worship a deity so cruel?

3) How can anyone take this, excuse me, bullshit seriously?


The more I learn about religion, the happier I am to do without it.

I think Calvin had the correct interpretation of the bible. I think this passage in Romans is often used to defend the predominant pre-determination view.

Quote: Romans, 9:15-21

"15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Also, may I recommend that your post titles indicate something about the topic of the post?

Quote: Wizard

Also, may I recommend that your post titles indicate something about the topic of the post?

Perhaps the intention was that posters might mistake this thread for something related to gambling.

Quote: Nareed

I'm listening to the Great Courses lectures on the Foundations of Western Civilization. On the lecture about Calvin, the professor makes it clear Calvin's doctrine states people are predestined to either be saved or dammned and they can't do anything about it. I take this to mean, then, that God creates people who will, through no responsibility of their own, end up in Hell for all eternity.

So, 1) what kind fo evil, sadistic, deity do these people believe in and why?

2) How can one worship a deity so cruel?

3) How can anyone take this, excuse me, bullshit seriously?


The more I learn about religion, the happier I am to do without it.

Right or wrong, good or bad, 85% of Americans affiliate themselves with some religion and in Mexico it's well over 90%. Other than sheer hatred, why do you continue to start threads for the sole purpose of bashing something dear to them? You're not going to change anyone's mind.

Quote: Wizard

Also, may I recommend that your post titles indicate something about the topic of the post?

Granted it wasn't specific, but the title perfectly describes the substance of what I'm discussing.

Mission, I did not intend for anyone to think this was about gambling. I posted it in the religion area, after all. It took me a minute to realize, when reading your post, what else BS could mean. If you want to change the title to something more graphic, go ahead.

Very well, and thank you, do you have a suggestion for a new thread title?

Quote: Nareed

I'm listening to the Great Courses lectures on the Foundations of Western Civilization. On the lecture about Calvin, the professor makes it clear Calvin's doctrine states people are predestined to either be saved or dammned and they can't do anything about it. I take this to mean, then, that God creates people who will, through no responsibility of their own, end up in Hell for all eternity.

So, 1) what kind fo evil, sadistic, deity do these people believe in and why?

2) How can one worship a deity so cruel?

3) How can anyone take this, excuse me, bullshit seriously?


The more I learn about religion, the happier I am to do without it.

Predestination does take the heaven/hell pressure off…….

>Calvin's doctrine states people are predestined to either be saved or dammned and they can't do anything about it
I don't think that is true. Why were Calvinists so strict, pious and why did they make an abomination of beer?

>So, 1) what kind fo evil, sadistic, deity do these people believe in and why?
One that countenanced inflicting daily beatings on children to encourage them to choose the right path. One man, raised Calvinist until age 7, was beaten daily until adopted by the Apache raiding party that killed his parents. He was never beaten again.

>2) How can one worship a deity so cruel?
A diety is more believable if cruel, if a diety were generous, where are my lottery winnings?

3) How can anyone take this, excuse me, bullshit seriously?
Most people take their believes seriously.

Quote: 1BB

Right or wrong, good or bad, 85% of Americans affiliate themselves with some religion and in Mexico it's well over 90%. Other than sheer hatred, why do you continue to start threads for the sole purpose of bashing something dear to them? You're not going to change anyone's mind.

If factual discussion is irrelevant, then how do people decide whether to believe in God, and which religion to choose?

Quote: treetopbuddy

Predestination does take the heaven/hell pressure off…….

The point is if you're predestined and the verdict can't change, than who gives a damn about life and why should you? You can spend your life high on crack, or be a serial killer, or torture children, and it makes no difference.

How does that makes sense?

I'd like to know why is took God six days to create the heavens and earth? Why did he have to rest on the seventh day? He was tired? Makes me wonder about God.

why is this allowed in here?

Buy and read the book, CALVINISM IN THE LAS VEGAS AIRPORT by RICHARD MOUW. It explains Calvinism quite well. Open your mind and see it for what it's worth -- you're not going to find your answers with a closed mind (ie: "how can anyone take this bullshit seriously?").

We are God's creation and he may do whatever he wants with us. It's not that "some are damned to hell", but that we are all evil by nature and hell is our judgement (The wages of sin is death -Romans). BUT, he chose some and has given them the gift of eternal life. You shouldn't be asking, "Why does God choose to save some people and not save others?" You should be asking, "Why would God choose to save anyone at all?"

Quote: treetopbuddy

I'd like to know why is took God six days to create the heavens and earth? Why did he have to rest on the seventh day? He was tired? Makes me wonder about God.

Internet wasn't invented yet.

I wonder how some folks become so consumed with hate that they feel it necessary to ridicule the faith of others.

Quote: strictlyAP

why is this allowed in here?

Quote: Sabretom2

I wonder how some folks become so consumed with hate that they feel it necessary to ridicule the faith of others.

When the facts are against you, attack the messenger.

Quote: gpac1377

If factual discussion is irrelevant, then how do people decide whether to believe in God, and which religion to choose?

Do you really think that's what this thread is about or why it was started? I'm not that religious but I respect others enough not to bash them every chance I get with a superior, in your face attitude.

If a comment were to be made about someone's alternate lifestyle there would be swift action taken. Not so here with religion where it is always open season.

Quote: 1BB

I'm not that religious but I respect others enough not to bash them every chance I get with a superior, in your face attitude. .

Why so sensitive? Religious people have been known to put on a superior, in your face attitude. Would you agree that the Christian crusades could be characterized as over the top and in your face?

Quote: treetopbuddy

Why so sensitive? Religious people have been known to put on a superior, in your face attitude. Would you agree that the Christian crusades could be characterized as over the top and in your face?

I'm not that sensitive, treetop, and I've said that I'm not religious. I include Christians and atheists among my friends and we all get along just fine. I was just questioning the spirit in which this thread was started. Real meaningful discussion is always a good thing.

Quote: 1BB

I'm not that religious but I respect others enough not to bash them every chance I get with a superior, in your face attitude.

Admittedly the OP did not create the thread with diplomacy in mind, but I would equate religion with betting systems. They're both factually dubious attempts to defeat negative expectation situations. Both subject areas are difficult to discuss without breaking a few eggs, lol.

Quote: RS

We are God's creation and he may do whatever he wants with us.

I always knew Christianity was bad. But given my view that most people are basically decent, I had never imagined it was really so depraved.

Quote: gpac1377

Admittedly the OP did not create the thread with diplomacy in mind, but I would equate religion with betting systems. They're both factually dubious attempts to defeat negative expectation situations. Both subject areas are difficult to discuss without breaking a few eggs, lol.

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" while swinging a big stick.

But consider the "defense." Youa re God's property, to do with as he wants. No wonder, then, the Bible condones slavery: we are all God's slaves to begin with. Our will, our desires, our selves, don't matter at all as far as the deity is concerned. Well, no wonder many among the most religious find no trouble being nasty and oppressive towards those they perceive as acting or even existing against God's will. They're just immitating the master, after all.

Quote: Mission146

Very well, and thank you, do you have a suggestion for a new thread title?

You could unpack the abreviation, but that would be too vulgar to have on a title.

That's it. I'm out of ideas.

Quote: treetopbuddy

I'd like to know why is took God six days to create the heavens and earth? Why did he have to rest on the seventh day? He was tired? Makes me wonder about God.

Don't be silly, 6 days is only 6 seconds in dog, i mean God years. He didn't really rest on the 7th day, he just got busy trying to figure out how to tempt Adam and Eve. On the eight day he really had fun, cus he was figuring out how to best create ways to kill future incontinent children. He's playing a Sims game vs the devil, with us. I'm still trying to figure out who is winning, and who is doing what.

Quote: Mission146

Perhaps the intention was that posters might mistake this thread for something related to gambling.

ROFLMAO....They would have to be new people to think she started a gambling thread. Unfortunately I didn't look at the posters name or the topic and now here I am. I did In fact think it was something good, instead it was something God. Good God! Yes people often put misleading tittles just to increase interest just like spam emails.

Quote: AxelWolf

I did In fact think it was something good, instead it was something God.

LOL, story of my life :(

Calvanism is one soteriological (look it up) view of many. A lot of people say that it's an errant belief (Me included) but almost no one argues Gods sovereignty . It's a question of how God reconciles Himself to us.

First off, the "Christianity" you say that fills Mexico is Catholicism. Let's get that straight. Catholics completely disagree with Calvin, at least the ones who go to Church and get their nods from the Vatican. Hence the confessional, hail marys, and their answer to the "lost tribe in Africa" question. I had some deep talks with real Catholics when I was in school and involved with pro life causes; they're closer to protestantism than Nancy Pelosi Catholics, but this is a sincere point of disagreement. My language is a little harsh here because, let's face it, the vast majority of Catholics we meet in an every day fashion ignore 90% of what the Vatican says. If you aren't going to follow the Vatican's lead, then join the Episcopalian/Anglican "church" (Little unrelated note, the show "The Tudors" is really good and follows the separation of the Church of England from The Vatican). I could keep going, but I'll leave it at that. Sorry for the extreme amount of sarcasm, I couldn't help myself.

True-blue 5-pillar Calvinists, by in large, believe that Armenians can go to Heaven. It isn't a make or break thing. On the other hand, Pelagians (is that the correct demonym?), are kind of whacky. They contest the fall of man in its entirety.

One of the more famous Calvinists: John MacArthur.

Your starting this thread and your hatred of the Faith shows more about you than it does us.

Quote: ahiromu

Your starting this thread and your hatred of the Faith shows more about you than it does us.

I should hope so.

I love my life, and I love living. Any doctrine which states life doesn't matter, or more specifically that what one does in life does not matter, is so anhorrent as to be horrifying. The idea that my life is not my own, or that I'm pre-destined to be or do something, is just as bad. Depraved, even. contrary to all the principles of ethics and morality, as it renders them irrelevant.

And any deity that creates life for the purpose of tortuting it in hell for all eternity has to be sadistic beyond belief. UNless I'm reading the whole thing wrong, that's what the predestination notion means.

Quote: Sabretom2

I wonder how some folks become so consumed with hate that they feel it necessary to ridicule the faith of others.

Amen Brother!

you must not love life that much if you come on here and post topics that have nothing to do with this forum and then don't allow anyone to contact you- like honestly this is why the wizard created the diversity tomm forum but you refuse to use it, not sure why but you don't - do you honestly have to post this stuff in here with misleading titles to hope people click on it and comment - i mean really take a step back and realize what you are doing and maybe get outside a little more

Quote: Nareed

And any deity that creates life for the purpose of tortuting it in hell for all eternity has to be sadistic beyond belief. UNless I'm reading the whole thing wrong, that's what the predestination notion means.

I'm guessing your interpretation of the Calvin doctrine is correct. Predestination is predestination.

I don't believe your OP was borne out of hate.

The Calvin doctrine is bat s*** crazy and you are simply pointing it out…...

Quote: Nareed

The point is if you're predestined and the verdict can't change, than who gives a damn about life and why should you? You can spend your life high on crack, or be a serial killer, or torture children, and it makes no difference.

How does that makes sense?

Of course it doesn't make sense and you know that.

It also does not represent the view of the overwhelming majority of Christians and Christian Churches.

You true objective in starting this conversation was to say this:

Quote: Nareed

I always knew Christianity was bad. But given my view that most people are basically decent, I had never imagined it was really so depraved.

Christianity is the religion of all Christians.

No one can be bad and depraved, but basically decent.

If what you "always knew" is true, then there are no decent Christians, and all Christians are bad and depraved.

Quote: Nareed

That's it. I'm out of ideas.

Now that would be a breath of fresh air......assuming it also means you are out of non-gambling topics to post on WoV.

Mission, is there a way to block a Member & every post made by other members to a thread the Blocked Member starts?

Quote: Paradigm

assuming it also means you are out of non-gambling topics to post on WoV.

You should try open-mic night at a comedy club, if any are still around.

But in the meantime, read this: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/announcements/15572-forum-enhancement-block-topics/

Quote: Wizard

I think Calvin had the correct interpretation of the bible. I think this passage in Romans is often used to defend the predominant pre-determination view.

I disagree with Calvin's interpretation of this passage as supporting the doctrine of predestination. I think what the Bible tells us is actually the opposite of this. We were NOT predestined to ANYTHING that we do not choose for ourselves:

God created us with free will, knowing beforehand that in following our free will we will all make mistakes, otherwise known as sin. What God is saying in Romans 9:15-21 is that He has the power to forgive sin, if He wants to - to show us mercy, if He wants to. He did, and does, offer us mercy through the atonement of Jesus Christ as reconciliation for our sins so that we will not have to suffer the consequences for ourselves.

What is also implied is that having free will allows us to accept that mercy only if WE want to. It is up to us to accept Gods mercy (the atonement of Jesus Christ) only if we so choose. The ball is actually in OUR court, not His. We can accept Gods mercy by becoming followers of Jesus Christ, OR we are also free to not accept Gods mercy and suffer the natural consequences of sin (death - both physical and spiritual) for ourselves.

We are free to choose our own misery or happiness. It is up to us to choose how we will spend the eternities and, to some extent, this life as well.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

What is also implied is that having free will allows us to accept that mercy only if WE want to. It is up to us to accept Gods mercy (the atonement of Jesus Christ) only if we so choose. The ball is actually in OUR court, not His. We can accept Gods mercy by becoming followers of Jesus Christ, OR we are also free to not accept Gods mercy and suffer the natural consequences of sin (death - both physical and spiritual) for ourselves.

I agree.

You do realize of course that by Nareed's definition, you are both bad and depraved.

Quote: Nareed

I always knew Christianity was bad. But given my view that most people are basically decent, I had never imagined it was really so depraved.

Quote: Sabretom2

I wonder how some folks become so consumed with hate that they feel it necessary to ridicule the faith of others.

In this case she started it. However, in most cases non believers are happy with not believing and go on about their marry little life. Believers and bible thumpers are always trying to cram the bible and their beliefs down your throat, with hypocritical contradictory BS. Non believers rarely go around interjecting there beliefs or witnessing, knocking on doors, preaching hell and damnation. Why not just keep your beliefs to yourself?

Quote: skrbornevrymin

What is also implied is that having free will allows us to accept that mercy only if WE want to. It is up to us to accept Gods mercy (the atonement of Jesus Christ) only if we so choose. The ball is actually in OUR court, not His. We can accept Gods mercy by becoming followers of Jesus Christ, OR we are also free to not accept Gods mercy and suffer the natural consequences of sin (death - both physical and spiritual) for ourselves.

Hows that working out for him? Why do this ? Was he board? Dose he like to play games? He is GOD and he can do anything why not just change the rules or something? Just like humans and slavery, we realized it was a bad thing and changed the rules. I still want someone to answer why he lets so many innocent children die? You cant blame free will when a bus full of children crash and die.

Quote: Tanko

You do realize of course that by Nareed's definition, you are both bad and depraved.

Actually, I agree with Nareed in saying that some interpretations of "Christianity" have caused and can cause very bad and depraved things to happen, both historically and in the world today. This does not mean that all religion is bad, or even that all Christianity is bad. We, as human beings, should strive to correctly identify and fully understand truth and goodness whenever and wherever we find it. We, individually, need to judge what we hear, see, and feel for ourselves, for what it is.

Whenever something does not "ring true" we are right to be skeptical and to reject it, if found to be incorrect. Even Jesus Christ said "by their fruits ye shall know them" and taught us to see for ourselves what is true (or not), so that we will not be deceived. We should also be careful as to what we hold up as "true and good" and what we deseminate as "true and good", especially if we have not examined and tested it carefully.

Accepting and/or following false or twisted beliefs is what causes and allows the badness and depravity to happen and continue to happen.

On the flip side, we should be open to, and be prepared to, accept and embrace goodness (in all its forms) after we have tested and found it to be "true and good".

Quote: skrbornevrymin

Actually, I agree with Nareed in saying that some interpretations of "Christianity" have caused and can cause very bad and depraved things to happen, both historically and in the world today. This does not mean that all religion is bad, or even that all Christianity is bad. We, as human beings, should strive to correctly identify and fully understand truth and goodness whenever and wherever we find it. We, individually, need to judge what we hear, see, and feel for ourselves, for what it is.

Whenever something does not "ring true" we are right to be skeptical and to reject it, if found to be incorrect. Even Jesus Christ said "by their fruits ye shall know them" and taught us to see for ourselves what is true (or not), so that we will not be deceived. We should also be careful as to what we hold up as "true and good" and what we deseminate as "true and good", especially if we have not examined and tested it carefully.

Accepting and/or following false or twisted beliefs is what causes and allows the badness and depravity to happen and continue to happen.

On the flip side, we should be open to, and be prepared to, accept and embrace goodness (in all its forms) after we have tested and found it to be "true and good".

Can you answer some hard questions

Quote: AxelWolf

Hows that working out for him? Why do this ? Was he board? Dose he like to play games? He is GOD and he can do anything why not just change the rules or something? Just like humans and slavery, we realized it was a bad thing and changed the rules. I still want someone to answer why he lets so many innocent children die? You cant blame free will when a bus full of children crash and die.

Because death is not the end. We are all eternal beings and will live with Him and be a part of His Goodness forever, if we choose. Why would He change the rules when things are going exactly as they are supposed to, more or less. He makes up for any discrepencies as needed and life continues to roll right along. It's not the suffering or the bad things that happen that are the key, it is how we react and deal with them that matters. In the end, he will make sure that everyone gets a "fair and just" judgement and reward, even the innocent children.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

Because death is not the end. We are all eternal beings and will live with Him and be a part of His Goodness forever, if we choose. Why would He change the rules when things are going exactly as they are supposed to, more or less. He makes up for any discrepencies as needed and life continues to roll right along. It's not the suffering or the bad things that happen that are the key, it is how we react and deal with them that matters. In the end, he will make sure that everyone gets a "fair and just" judgement and reward, even the innocent children.

I guess its all interpretation. I was under the understanding that everyone is born into sin, sinners can't go to heaven. You may say that babies and children do go to heaven however what would then keep deprate parents from killing their children just to make sure they went to heaven.

So children suffering is just to see how they react, and their prize for such things is a fair judgment. or dose he punish children to see how others react.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

God created us with free will, knowing beforehand that in following our free will we will all make mistakes, otherwise known as sin.

You see, that's a very troubling statement.

I don't believe in sin. That is, a bad or even an evil act is, of course, real, and really bad morally speaking. But such acts are classified as bad or evil because of how they affect others, not because some deity defined them arbitrarily that way.

In any case, for an action to be evil it needs to be deliberate. A mistake is NOT made deliberately, but rather by accident, or as a consequence of incomplete or wrong information. And such things, though they may carry moral responsibility, are not malicious.

Conversely, regarding an evil action, such as rape or murder, as a "mistake" trivializes it and implies a lesser amount of moral responsibility than it really carries.

As to the moral responsibility of a mistake, this means the person who made it should at least attempt to redress the party or parties affected. Not that they should be punished for it.

Quote: AxelWolf

I guess its all interpretation. I was under the understanding that everyone is born into sin, sinners can't go to heaven. You may say that babies and children do go to heaven however what would then keep deprate parents from killing their children just to make sure they went to heaven.

So children suffering is just to see how they react, and their prize for such things is a fair judgment. or dose he punish children to see how others react.

God doesn't punish children, but allows the choices of man to have natural consequences including death or worse.

Because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, the technical definition of "sin" is anything that seperates us from God or makes us "unclean." It is up to us to keep ourselves "clean", but God knows that this is impossible for man to actually do in practice. Therefore, he provided an atonement for the remainder though his Son Jesus Christ, who was the only person who ever lived who was perfect enough to do such a thing. Through Christ's atonement we are able to become "clean" again and thus have the abiliity to enter into the presence of God.

Quote: Nareed

You see, that's a very troubling statement.

I don't believe in sin. That is, a bad or even an evil act is, of course, real, and really bad morally speaking. But such acts are classified as bad or evil because of how they affect others, not because some deity defined them arbitrarily that way.

In any case, for an action to be evil it needs to be deliberate. A mistake is NOT made deliberately, but rather by accident, or as a consequence of incomplete or wrong information. And such things, though they may carry moral responsibility, are not malicious.

Conversely, regarding an evil action, such as rape or murder, as a "mistake" trivializes it and implies a lesser amount of moral responsibility than it really carries.

As to the moral responsibility of a mistake, this means the person who made it should at least attempt to redress the party or parties affected. Not that they should be punished for it.

Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect you.

You are correct in saying that there are various degrees of sin and that some are far more grevious than others. However, the ultimate effect of sin, regardless of how grevious or how minor is that it can prevent us from dwelling in the presence of God.

You are also correct in saying that proper repentence for sin should include an attempt to redress the party or parties that we have affected. But even in our best attempts to do so, we will fall short because we are human. The atonement of Christ in this regard is at least two fold: it allows for the "healing" of those affected as well as makes clean the offender if he truely repents.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect you.

Just because you believe in something doesn't mean it does exist and it affects you.

Quote:

You are correct in saying that there are various degrees of sin

You're wrong. I said there is no such thing as sin. I will kindly thank you not to say I believe in the idea of sin.

Quote: Nareed

Just because you believe in something doesn't mean it does exist and it affects you.

This is true, a very good point. With a half-dozen conflicting religions, either most are wrong or all are wrong. We get this "I'm right - you're wrong!" and even "We have the right to take from, force into servitude, and kill the [infidels, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's women, etc.]" Stay out of the fray.

Nareed said "Christianity is bad, but people are fundamentally decent."
I disagree. I think Religion may be bad, (well Buddhism seems peaceful and mind-your-own business, live and let live...),
but that really, people are bad. They're (we're) selfish, scamming, corrupt, un-contributory, and really don't give a flying F about anyone but themselves and family, and in many cases, even screw over family. Life is often hard because of others corruption, laziness, and greed, and not because we're decent and we have it together and deserve better. Planet Earth is often viewed as a "realm of hell" - and Calvinistic thought is that your lot in life is decreed (predetermined) by the Almighty. We do appear to be stuck with our lot in life, but a lot of it is how we apply ourselves including working smart and striving smart and ethically. "You want fries with that burger? that'll be $5.89, please drive up to the next window..." versus doing something or building something useful and creative, like this site or "One for the Money." Some people believe God helps those who help themselves, and others believe it is just you who has a responsibility to help yourself, (and this is not an endorsement of AP play, here....)

Buddhists (and surprisingly atheists) believe that earth is a realm of hell simply because of ourselves, and Buddhist thought is that through reincarnation, we get born into the world and environments we actually deserve - and get, and that this system is basically perfect even if you don't like it one iota. Kind of like "a lesson is repeated until it is learned," and "You are what you make of yourself over many lifetimes." You're a crook? Get born in Somalia with an empty rice bowl. You're a saint? Get born a senator's son or the son of a General Electric Vice president - where you may still fall from grace all spoiled.

If there is a God, he may be saying "you starve and kill yourselves, but blame me and do it in my name, you deserve yourselves. It NEVER ends with you guys..."

Sin is immorality as it relates to God's view. You don't have to believe in that for indecency to exist and see it.
I don't blame religion or religious thought, I blame man and human thought, although religious justification of crimes is huge; honor killings, stoning to death rape victims on the basis of religious fornication charges, etc.,

You're wrong. I said there is no such thing as sin. I will kindly thank you not to say I believe in the idea of sin.

Quote: Paigowdan

Nareed said "Christianity is bad, but people are fundamentally decent."
I disagree. I think Religion may be bad, (well Buddhism seems peaceful and mind-your-own business, live and let live...),
but that really, people are bad. They're (we're) selfish, scamming, corrupt, un-contributory, and really don't give a flying F about anyone but themselves and family, and in many cases, even screw over family.

I still believe people are basically decent, and most of them, the vast majority of them, want to be decent. The problems come when one person or group think they have a right to someone else's life and/or property. Even then, societies have evolved institutions in a way that has civilized much of this wrong-doing, tamed it if you will.

Consider drug prohibition. Yes, drugs are terrible. There's no question of that. But the effort to eliminate drugs is a hundred times worse than the drugs it seeks to eliminate. It's true that a person may ruin their lives with drugs. It's true that a person given a prison sentence and marked as a felon will have their life ruined more effectively.

And what is behind the prohibition? the idea that some people have a right to other people's lives. In this case how they should live and what they can and cannot do.

Quote:

Buddhists (and surprisingly atheists) believe that earth is a realm of hell simply because of ourselves,

We part ways on that one.

Right now life in much of the West is the best it's ever been. We enjoy good nutrition (perhaps too good), good overall medical care, countless means of entertainment are easily available and afforable, we can choose to spend our free time learning about any subject conceivable, we can travel even long distances quickly and for a resonable cost, and that's just a part of it.

To be sure there remain battles to fight and worlds to conquer, but it is a great time to be alive.

God is always going to be depraved, because He's the personification of a depraved universe. It's perverse to both personify and love a single God. It's not even just our own doing, unless you believe in a kind of natural empathy as many Buddhists do - look how hostile just about everything on Earth is to human life, and how totally hostile everything not on Earth is.

But I disagree with her assessment of Calvinism, in that it's not that there's nothing we can do, only that God has decided whether we're going to do it. It's sort of a logical conclusion of the existence of God - the same way that preacher got in hot water for saying the Holocaust was part of God's plan, but isn't that a logical necessity of monotheism? In any conceivable universe with a single god and the idea of eternal damnation, that god must have known some of us were to be damned. Especially when most Protestants, and until the sixties knowledgeable Catholics, hold that most of the world is damned for not believing what's almost certainly false. Calvin just happened to both think about this and accept it (you should see the Church's weaselling on this!), which made the depravity of the being he had to love a bit too evident.

In any case, in reality, I don't think determinism and free will are incompatible, when you recognize that determinism encompasses both agent and action - internally, free will exists, the same way centrifugal force exists, or the same way a kind of relativistic Tychonic geocentrism could create a workable (albeit impossibly complicated) model.