PA Gaming Control Board--Temporary Table Games Rulesmaking

Now the the Table Games legislation has passed, the next in line is Table Games Rulesmaking. Here is the link:

For what it is worth, Blackjack rules are found in Section 549 (and 549.9 deals with Surrender):

Temporary Table Games Rulesmaking

To continue.

If these blackjack rules hold true, rules in PA will be: S17, DAS, 3:2, Surrender allowed. Insofar as the other games, I have no clue except to say that there is an awful lot of language dealing with craps.

The Shufflemaster machine that I played at Harrahs--Chester did not allow for surrender; so I wonder out loud if the machines will be altered to accept a surrender option. That said, I think it very safe to assume that the machines are outside the legislation so there would be no change to the rules played.

Interesting stuff - if you like boring, dry material.

I wonder if 'temporary' means that this is a work in progress, to be completed before table games open, or if this is just for the table games authorized to open, and more games will be authorized and added later.

There are rules only for Roulette, Craps, Mini-Craps (tub), BlackJack, and, of all things, Big Six!

But one thing I found particularly interesting is, they list TWO sets of pay tables for the FireBet, and leave it as the casino's option which to use:
4 - 24:1 / 39:1
5 - 249:1 / 199:1
6 - 999:1 / 499:1

What makes it interesting is, only the first pay table is listed on the rules page for the owners of the FireBet trademark: http://hopbet.com/rules_of_play.htm

Quote: Niblick

To continue.

If these blackjack rules hold true, rules in PA will be: S17, DAS, 3:2, Surrender allowed. Insofar as the other games, I have no clue except to say that there is an awful lot of language dealing with craps.

The Shufflemaster machine that I played at Harrahs--Chester did not allow for surrender; so I wonder out loud if the machines will be altered to accept a surrender option. That said, I think it very safe to assume that the machines are outside the legislation so there would be no change to the rules played.

Parx and Sands have surrender on those machines, and Hollywood had it the first time I went, but then the button was either removed or blacked out and nothing happened when you pressed it. They probably won't change that when tables come.

Also, this was about the only different rule that stuck out to me:

(c) If the clapper comes to rest between two numbers or
symbols upon completion of the spin of the wheel, the spin shall
be void and the dealer must re-spin the wheel.

On Big Six in AC, it goes to the previous number. I guess they don't want to waste that huge house edge for a spin in AC, but PA doesn't care yet. It happens more than you'd think in AC. The previous number seems more logical, because it hasn't made that "click" to the next one, so I'd assume it's still on the previous one. Not that I play this game, I just like observing all games.

I guess I'm kinda surprised they made no mention of Bingo????

In any event, I anticipate that the generous blackjack rules being offered will be offset by the use of continuous shuffling machines. If true, I'll have to hope that DE doesn't use them.

Given the proximity of Delaware Park to Harrahs and Parx, do you think the DE rules may actually influence their use?

It doesn't seem like they impact each other. They have different rules, limits, payouts, and options on the Shufflemaster BJ, 3CP, and Texas Hold Em (Which isn't in Parx). Someone said earlier that Delaware is clearly targeting the Baltimore/DC crowd, and Parx/Harrah's is targeting Philly metro and Central NJ. When I checked out the Delaware Park Sports Book, they were playing the audio for the Ravens game, rather than the Eagles, and most of the larger TVs also had the Ravens. It was actually pretty neat; you could hear the audio from the parking lot as they were blasting it on the Track's sound system and playing the game on a huge screen in the infield. It was too cold for most to stay out and watch it though.

(c) After a second card is dealt to each split pair hand, the dealer shall announce the point total of the hand and the player shall indicate his decision to stand, draw or double down with respect that hand except that:
(1) A player may split one more pair if the second card dealt is identical in value to a card of the split pair, for a total of three hands. A player may not split another identical value pair.
(2) A player splitting aces may only have one card dealt to each ace and may not elect to receive additional cards.
-----------------
That seems like an unusual rule. So if you get two 8's, and you split them and get two more 8's, it sound like you can only resplit one hand.


RE: Shufflemaster Blackjack is classified as a slot machine (and not a table game). They simulate 6 decks and deal 4 decks before they reshuffle. However, each individual is playing from his own simulated shoe of cards (that's what makes it a slot machine). But I would imagine that they would reset the game so that it would be the same as the table games. There is no requirement in the law for minimum bets (that I could see). The casinos may start the tables with live dealers at a minimum of $10 (or $20) and let the machines handle the $5 players.

I didn't see any restrictions on side bets.

Very few still deal 4 decks before shuffling. The $25 ones at Philly Park used to say that, but now they all say "Cards Shuffled after each round". This is a tough rule to find...it's written in smaller print on the actual table by the payouts in front of the player. Also, I don't know if they would care to reset them to table game standards, only because they'd have to go through the whole approval process again, for no real advantage to the house. It will be interesting to see whether they choose Single Zero Roulette, or change every Bally's Machine they have.

Oh and as for the resplitting, I've seen plenty of places that only allow 1 resplit. In AC, they have you play out the hand before dealing the 2nd card to the 2nd split card anyway.

Quote: Niblick

I guess I'm kinda surprised they made no mention of Bingo????

Maybe the casinos don't want bingo, so it's a non-issue?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: Niblick

I guess I'm kinda surprised they made no mention of Bingo????

Maybe the casinos don't want bingo, so it's a non-issue?

Casinos taking over bingo here would bring very grave consequences for whoever allowed it. Too many churches and other clubs depend on it. Anyways I always heard bingo is barely profitable for a casino given how much space it takes and it is there mostly to give bingo-playing-spouses something to do while the other one plays the "real" games.

My humblest apologies..

My mention of bingo was a poor attempt at humor. The mention of a Big Six conjured up memories of my buddies and me (ages 9-11) playing the Big Six at the local carnival/fair in the mid-sixties. Of course, the Big Six was located next to the shelter built specifically for bingo.

Any attempt to control bingo would be political suicide. AZ is right, churches, clubs, seniors, et.al. would rise up en masse against any attempt to legislate bing in PA.

Bingo is pretty much a sacred cow in PA.

Again...my bad.

Oh. Sorry I didn't realize the bingo mention was a joke.

On the contrary....

Since Indian casinos came about as a result of the Foxwoods challenge of state sanctioned church bingo, it's fair to assume that new casinos, both Indian and non-Indian, might embrace, or at least consider, bingo.

So I thought you were kinda serious.

But I agree that if the PA casinos cinsidered it, the churchs would complain. And considering that church and state are not as separate in PA as they are in most other states, I can see where the casinos wouldn't even want to bring the topic up.


On a side note, I'm curious to know why Foxwoods keeps the bingo. Is it profitable? Is it a nice legacy? Or are they afraid that if they got rid of it, their original argument might unravel?

Quote: Niblick

My humblest apologies..

My mention of bingo was a poor attempt at humor. The mention of a Big Six conjured up memories of my buddies and me (ages 9-11) playing the Big Six at the local carnival/fair in the mid-sixties. Of course, the Big Six was located next to the shelter built specifically for bingo.

Any attempt to control bingo would be political suicide. AZ is right, churches, clubs, seniors, et.al. would rise up en masse against any attempt to legislate bing in PA.

Bingo is pretty much a sacred cow in PA.

Again...my bad.

Sorry if I missed the humor. But unless you are from PA you will not realize how sacred bingo is to the churches, etc.

But OTOH, is bingo profitable for casinos or is it just an inducement?

Back in NY they had "bingo halls for rent" and it worked this way. If you had a group that wanted to raise funds they "rented" the concession for the afternoon or night. No idea the split, but surely the owner got at least half. Most everyone running the game from the count room to the number caller to the people selling "special" tickets was working as a volunteer. No idea how much the state took off the top either.

My point is that I don't see bingo as being very profitable in a casino given how much space it takes, which is a lot. Am I wrong? A locals casino near where I lived in AZ had a bingo hall, though.

BTW: I volunteered a few nights for one group. Let me tell you, bingo finatics are worse than craps finatics. They want "special" cards in order, or out of order, or off the top or bottom of your pile. And after you sell them don't even say thanks, they just want to get back to whatever they were doing. And pre-smoke free they had a smoking room that even vented was a months worth of secondhand smoke in 5 mintutes.

Inconsistency seems to be the consistency.

As of last weekend, I have now played the Shufflemaster blackjack machines at Harrah's-Chester, Mount Airy and Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs.

Having read the responses to my thread on 12 v 4, I felt the need to practice so I went to Mount Airy and Mohegan Sun

1. Harrahs-Chester: S17 (I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly), No Surrender Allowed, $5.00 Minimum video tables available
2. Mount Airy: H17, Surrender Allowed, Minimum start at $10.00 at the video tables ($5.00 video tables are not available).
3. Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs: H17, Surrender Allowed, Only $5.00 video tables are available.

With the legislature involved, it's hard to believe the table games will have this disparity...but, who knows?

Mohegan Sun @ Pocono Downs has applied for BJ, craps, roulette, 3 card, Spanish 21, Mini Baccarat, Pai Gow, and poker.

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