Beating of MGM Grand Detroit patron
September 27th, 2011 at 11:19:06 PM
permalink
Dont mess with the cops,
September 27th, 2011 at 11:24:09 PM
permalink
White Detroit cops tend not to take crap from anybody.
Gee, I wonder why.
Gee, I wonder why.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 27th, 2011 at 11:31:42 PM
permalink
He has already filed in US District Court.
"He tried to throw a punch" is nonsense. Tried? His arms were at his sides. Cop punched him. Clearly uncalled for.
I wonder if he ever did anything with the waitress. Where is that footage?
"He tried to throw a punch" is nonsense. Tried? His arms were at his sides. Cop punched him. Clearly uncalled for.
I wonder if he ever did anything with the waitress. Where is that footage?
September 27th, 2011 at 11:42:06 PM
permalink
Is it just me or does excessive force by police officers seem to be getting worse? Maybe having more cameras everywhere is holding them more accountable or maybe some of their frustration with the justice system is causing them to act out. At the same time I have seen first hand how some people disrespect officers and I can't believe it.
September 27th, 2011 at 11:42:42 PM
permalink
If you watch it again, he had a finger in the cops face
with his right hand. Cops generally don't react well to this.
with his right hand. Cops generally don't react well to this.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 4:04:15 AM
permalink
Quote: ikilledjerryloganIs it just me or does excessive force by police officers seem to be getting worse? Maybe having more cameras everywhere is holding them more accountable or maybe some of their frustration with the justice system is causing them to act out. At the same time I have seen first hand how some people disrespect officers and I can't believe it.
It seems to me that it's getting worse also and something needs to be done about it. Police brutality is out of control. Better training is needed for sure.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
September 28th, 2011 at 4:05:26 AM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobIf you watch it again, he had a finger in the cops face
with his right hand. Cops generally don't react well to this.
If they don't react well to this then they should be relieved of their gun and badge. They are professionals and if they cannot conduct themselves professionally then they need to be fired. Police should be held to a higher standard.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
September 28th, 2011 at 4:18:37 AM
permalink
Quote: JimMorrisonIf they don't react well to this then they should be relieved of their gun and badge.
Again, its Detroit. Have you ever been to Detroit?
Here are the stats on Detroit:
White 116,599 12.26%
Black or African American 775,772 81.55%
Its a swell, magical place. You should visit
there soon...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 4:47:33 AM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobAgain, its Detroit. Have you ever been to Detroit?
Here are the stats on Detroit:
White 116,599 12.26%
Black or African American 775,772 81.55%
Its a swell, magical place. You should visit
there soon...
I've been to Detroit hundreds of times. And my cousin is a Detroit police officer. I happen to think Detroit is a great place. And I see no relevance at all in racial statistics. The point you seem to be making is that if a city is mostly black then cops should have the right to beat people?
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
September 28th, 2011 at 5:34:26 AM
permalink
I'd like to see the footage from the cocktail lounge... be great publicity if his hands were on camera and showed he did nothing wrong at all. Sort of like that guy who got beat up for complaining about a malfunctioning slot machine and the machine actually was malfunctioning.
September 28th, 2011 at 8:52:58 AM
permalink
Quote: JimMorrisonI've been to Detroit hundreds of times. And my cousin is a Detroit police officer. I happen to think Detroit is a great place. And I see no relevance at all in racial statistics. The point you seem to be making is that if a city is mostly black then cops should have the right to beat people?
Jim, would love to have your cousin take a look at the video and comment.
From the article, it seems like the police are called because this guy has alledgelly done some inappropriate things involving an employee of the establishment (and why would they make that stuff up) and they have asked him to leave and he refused. The cops have to show up as reinforcement so the guy is physically made to leave and he decides he is going to mouth off to them.
Right at the start of the video, the guy is seen touching the police officers upper right arm in the middle of them asking him to leave. You don't touch police officers when they are confronting you!! Then he is finally walking out and he stops, turns around to the officer and starts mouthing off raising both hands one at time and pointing his finger in the face of the officer as he is yelling at them. Making verbal threats, raising your hands and pointing in the face of a police officer in the middle of a tense situation when you have been asked to leave several times is going to get you in trouble.
I wish the guy good luck in court, maybe there is more to the story in the audio portion of the encounter, but this guy created his own problem by not leaving when being asked, having the cops have to show up to get him to leave and then deciding that he was going to make some sort of verbal stand and berate the cop with threatening hand gestures. Clearly a rocket scientist!!
September 28th, 2011 at 9:42:59 AM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobAgain, its Detroit. Have you ever been to Detroit?
Here are the stats on Detroit:
White 116,599 12.26%
Black or African American 775,772 81.55%
Its a swell, magical place. You should visit
there soon...
Right up there with Portland, I guess?
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
September 28th, 2011 at 10:06:29 AM
permalink
Risky behaviour leads to risk. Have a few too many drinks in the casino, touch a cocktail waitress inappropriately, and out you go. The man was beligerent at best, and it's clear that he was arguing with the police officer with a pat on the arm and fingers in the officer's face while he was arguing. The man was being quite inappropritate, to the point where force was justified? Not in my opinion.
The behaviour of the police officer is inappropriate as well and he will probably be reprimanded or suspended for his actions for the first punch. However, the man should not have been pointing the finger and raising his voice to the officer. To the officer, the man's behaviour probably represented a surprise escalation of behaviour and the police officer reacted violently (and wrongly).
Later in the video, more punches to the man as he was clearly resisting being handcuffed. This behaviour is appropriate, in my opinion, as it is a resist of arrest and the police have the right to use force to make the arrest and make the man comply.
The behaviour of the police officer is inappropriate as well and he will probably be reprimanded or suspended for his actions for the first punch. However, the man should not have been pointing the finger and raising his voice to the officer. To the officer, the man's behaviour probably represented a surprise escalation of behaviour and the police officer reacted violently (and wrongly).
Later in the video, more punches to the man as he was clearly resisting being handcuffed. This behaviour is appropriate, in my opinion, as it is a resist of arrest and the police have the right to use force to make the arrest and make the man comply.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 28th, 2011 at 10:24:46 AM
permalink
I think this is just a sign of how respect is a lost art in this country. There is no possible way I would ever even question a person of the law or any authority figure for that matter. Yet people feel like they can tell off whomever, whenever they want to.
In my job, I have a coworker who has a very disrespectful worker. She was telling me some of the stuff she has said and done to managers and her superiors. Much of it grounds for immediate termination, but she still has a job. We tolerate a lack of respect for some reason. I don't ever feel sorry for those who choose to talk back to authority figures. Perhaps the beating was a bit questionable, but the disrespect is simply unacceptable.
In my job, I have a coworker who has a very disrespectful worker. She was telling me some of the stuff she has said and done to managers and her superiors. Much of it grounds for immediate termination, but she still has a job. We tolerate a lack of respect for some reason. I don't ever feel sorry for those who choose to talk back to authority figures. Perhaps the beating was a bit questionable, but the disrespect is simply unacceptable.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
September 28th, 2011 at 10:30:34 AM
permalink
Boy, you are probably right and I see your point. There is probably some blame on both sides.
I do tend to be a rule follower and when the cops show up, I am full of "Yes Sirs", etc. When I get pulled over, I turn on my interior light on and put both hands on top of the steering whell with my palms pointed up. Cops have a tough job trying to figure out what people are going to do when they are going to confront them. Whenever they are confronting me, I want to present an image of compliance and respect.....tends to lead to pleasurable interactions with the police as opposed to the type that happened in Detroit.
If I feel like I have a legitimate beef with how I am being treated, I'll decide not to frequent that business or seek justice via the legal system.
I just never see a lot of upside in being beligerant to a police officer at the time of an altercation so when I see someone that takes that course of action, I tend to think they got their due. That is probably a flawed philosophy, but what can I say, consider the source ;-)!
I do tend to be a rule follower and when the cops show up, I am full of "Yes Sirs", etc. When I get pulled over, I turn on my interior light on and put both hands on top of the steering whell with my palms pointed up. Cops have a tough job trying to figure out what people are going to do when they are going to confront them. Whenever they are confronting me, I want to present an image of compliance and respect.....tends to lead to pleasurable interactions with the police as opposed to the type that happened in Detroit.
If I feel like I have a legitimate beef with how I am being treated, I'll decide not to frequent that business or seek justice via the legal system.
I just never see a lot of upside in being beligerant to a police officer at the time of an altercation so when I see someone that takes that course of action, I tend to think they got their due. That is probably a flawed philosophy, but what can I say, consider the source ;-)!
September 28th, 2011 at 10:38:59 AM
permalink
If they guy grabbed the waitresses ass he deserved a beating. End of story!
Police never know what they are up against and I always give them the benefit of the doubt. The fact that a jackass refused to leave and the cops need to waste time on shit like that was reason enough for the first punch IMO.
I really dont think a cocktail waitress would make shit like that up as I imagine they have some pretty thick skin.
Police never know what they are up against and I always give them the benefit of the doubt. The fact that a jackass refused to leave and the cops need to waste time on shit like that was reason enough for the first punch IMO.
I really dont think a cocktail waitress would make shit like that up as I imagine they have some pretty thick skin.
when man determined to destroy himself he picked the was of shall and finding only why smashed it into because."
— E.E. Cummings
September 28th, 2011 at 10:55:00 AM
permalink
My daughter has a concealed carry permit. Whenever she is pulled over, the first cop will sit in his car until back-up arrives !
September 28th, 2011 at 11:03:20 AM
permalink
As i said before, when you start acting like an idiot, bad things will happen. Being beligerent to a police officer will generally end up with you in a jail cell, or in this case, worse. Being compliant and reasonable on the other hand will usually set you free. Drunkenness usually takes the complaince and reasonability away.
I remember my last drunken excursion in Vancouver about 5 years back. i was at a bar with my wife and a couple of friends, and i noticed that this girl's dress had a button (high up on the dress, towards the top of her back) in the back that was undone... none of my business I know, and she wasn't attractive or anything. I thought I was just being helpful, so I touched her where the button was and told her that it was undone. Next thing I know, I've got four guys threatening to beat the shit out of me. Now, I wouldn't have touched her had i not been completely drunk. Anyway, the bar closes, security escorts us out the back while the gang is out front looking for us.
Good times.
I remember my last drunken excursion in Vancouver about 5 years back. i was at a bar with my wife and a couple of friends, and i noticed that this girl's dress had a button (high up on the dress, towards the top of her back) in the back that was undone... none of my business I know, and she wasn't attractive or anything. I thought I was just being helpful, so I touched her where the button was and told her that it was undone. Next thing I know, I've got four guys threatening to beat the shit out of me. Now, I wouldn't have touched her had i not been completely drunk. Anyway, the bar closes, security escorts us out the back while the gang is out front looking for us.
Good times.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 28th, 2011 at 11:04:26 AM
permalink
How does that first cop know she has a permit?
September 28th, 2011 at 1:30:43 PM
permalink
I agree that there is much less respect for the police these days, but I also believe there is much more abuse of power by SOME police officers these days.
Based on what I have read, I suspect he probably did touch the waitresses ass. I also would guess that she was mad, rightfully so, and sought to have him expelled. I am guessing she felt that was as far as it needed to go. Guy won't leave, so security calls the cops. Cops show up, and it clearly looks like guy is mouthing off. To me it also appears he is pointing at his own chin, perhaps enticing the cop to hit me here?
This is where I believe it goes wrong. The cops have handcuffs. At any time, they could have threatened him with arrest, and I am sure they did. When it became obvious he was going to be difficult, they should have proceeded with the handcuffs. Throwing the first punch is indefensible. From there the escalation cannot be justified, because the cops mishandled it and that is how it ended up. Then to make matters worse, they charge him with sexual assault, and assault on an officer.
The last sentence to me tells the story. After viewing the tape, the DA dismissed the charges.
Sorry officer. I understand how hard the job is, but those first punches were not the correct response.
Based on what I have read, I suspect he probably did touch the waitresses ass. I also would guess that she was mad, rightfully so, and sought to have him expelled. I am guessing she felt that was as far as it needed to go. Guy won't leave, so security calls the cops. Cops show up, and it clearly looks like guy is mouthing off. To me it also appears he is pointing at his own chin, perhaps enticing the cop to hit me here?
This is where I believe it goes wrong. The cops have handcuffs. At any time, they could have threatened him with arrest, and I am sure they did. When it became obvious he was going to be difficult, they should have proceeded with the handcuffs. Throwing the first punch is indefensible. From there the escalation cannot be justified, because the cops mishandled it and that is how it ended up. Then to make matters worse, they charge him with sexual assault, and assault on an officer.
The last sentence to me tells the story. After viewing the tape, the DA dismissed the charges.
Sorry officer. I understand how hard the job is, but those first punches were not the correct response.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 28th, 2011 at 4:25:10 PM
permalink
Quote: JimMorrisonI've been to Detroit hundreds of times. I happen to think Detroit is a great place.
You're right, what was I thinking. Detroit is a swell place,
every time I'm there I kick myself for not living in the city.
Its a charmer....
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 5:50:20 PM
permalink
Quote: RaleighCrapsI agree that there is much less respect for the police these days, but I also believe there is much more abuse of power by SOME police officers these days.
First of all, cops hate these kind of calls. I know because
when I had the bar, I had to call them probably 50 times
over the 3 years I was there and they told me they hated
bar calls. They go right to the bottom of the list. Noboby
likes dealing with drunks. Secondly, I guarantee the cops
were already pissed they had to park the car and walk all
the way inside the casino. Look at their faces, grim and pissed.
Then the airhead starts mouthing off and sticking his hands
in the cops face? He deserved what he got, stupidity is it
own worst punishment.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 5:59:22 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobFirst of all, cops hate these kind of calls. I know because
when I had the bar, I had to call them probably 50 times
over the 3 years I was there and they told me they hated
bar calls. They go right to the bottom of the list. Noboby
likes dealing with drunks. Secondly, I guarantee the cops
were already pissed they had to park the car and walk all
the way inside the casino. Look at their faces, grim and pissed.
Then the airhead starts mouthing off and sticking his hands
in the cops face? He deserved what he got, stupidity is it
own worst punishment.
He got what he deserved in a bar fight, not what should happen when a professional employee is involved.
When he raised his finger in the cop's face, an appropriate response could have been an immediate wrist lock, a tackle, many other options. Also, from my view, it appears the drunk is pointing to his own chin right before he is struck. I am pretty sure a right cross and a left haymaker is not the usual way of dealing with a drunk who has not done anything other than a finger point up to the point where he gets cold cocked. Sorry Bob, officer overstepped.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 28th, 2011 at 6:04:26 PM
permalink
Quote: RaleighCrapsSorry Bob, officer overstepped.
So what? That doesn't mean he didn't get what he
deserved. I hate drunks, I hate them with a passion.
I got out of the business because of it. Dealing with
drunks when you're sober is a nasty business. The
guys lucky there were cameras or he really would
have gotten it. One of my favorite lines I heard a
cop use, when being verbally abused by a drunk was,
"Do you really want to go down this road?" They
can really screw with you if they want to.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 6:17:46 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobI hate drunks, I hate them with a passion. I got out of the business because of it. Dealing with drunks when you're sober is a nasty business.
Perhaps the casino should have been more alert to the amount of alcohol they were selling him. I'm not quite as convinced as everyone else that he ever touched the waitress, but she is the one most qualified to know.
If a bar owner has to call the cops, it usually means he will raise the lighting level first and make sure his certificates are displayed properly and his rinse water is at a high temperature etc. because the cops often like to retaliate for having been called. I always thought it was just a ploy to get their palms greased but perhaps its to retaliate for being involved in a bar call.
September 28th, 2011 at 6:25:54 PM
permalink
Quote: FleaStiff
If a bar owner has to call the cops, it usually means he will raise the lighting level first and make sure his certificates are displayed properly and his rinse water is at a high temperature etc.
Never saw any of that. I know I sometimes had to call them 3 or 4
times just to get them to show up. Its a nuisance call for them, but
its bigger nuisance for me having a loud mouthed drunk driving my
good customers away. They often come in half in the bag, and after
2 drinks they're wasted. Sometimes you can spot them first and refuse
service, then they won't leave and I have to make the call.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 6:28:38 PM
permalink
hating drunks, while running a bar does not seem to go together.
Sort of like carrying a glass of gas, and a lit cigarette, and then getting mad when you catch fire. Huh ???
Sort of like carrying a glass of gas, and a lit cigarette, and then getting mad when you catch fire. Huh ???
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 28th, 2011 at 6:43:33 PM
permalink
Quote: RaleighCrapshating drunks, while running a bar does not seem to go together.
Thats why I got out. Most of the bar owners I knew
were stone cold alchoholics. They were drunk in their
own bars every day because patrons would buy them
drinks. I started drinking too much towards the end
and realized what road I was headed down and got
out. It really is a 'if you can't beat em, join em' type
of business.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 28th, 2011 at 7:42:44 PM
permalink
Quote: buzzpaffMy daughter has a concealed carry permit. Whenever she is pulled over, the first cop will sit in his car until back-up arrives !
They ran her plate. Evidently it's in their computer data base. She was 22, 5feet, 100 lbs and once the second car arrived, the first cop came up to her window and asked if she had a weapon on her or in the car.
September 28th, 2011 at 8:00:33 PM
permalink
+1Quote: JimMorrisonIf they don't react well to this then they should be relieved of their gun and badge. They are professionals and if they cannot conduct themselves professionally then they need to be fired. Police should be held to a higher standard.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
September 28th, 2011 at 8:31:29 PM
permalink
Police should be held to a higher standard. And be paid a lot more. The honest ones, that is !
September 29th, 2011 at 5:44:23 PM
permalink
Police should definitely act like professionals. Unfortunately,
dealing with a certain amount of attitude probably happens
all the time.
I would think the police should have said, "Look buddy, if
you don't leave, we're going to have to arrest you for
trespassing, and you're gonna spend a night in jail.
Your call". In fact, maybe he should have been hauled
straight to jail, because it seems like MGM has the
right to kick you out if justified.
And finally.....
The rule I would like to implement is that anyone
who bitches about police, referees, etc, automatically
has to step in and do that job. I think that would
cut down on the bellyachin !
dealing with a certain amount of attitude probably happens
all the time.
I would think the police should have said, "Look buddy, if
you don't leave, we're going to have to arrest you for
trespassing, and you're gonna spend a night in jail.
Your call". In fact, maybe he should have been hauled
straight to jail, because it seems like MGM has the
right to kick you out if justified.
And finally.....
The rule I would like to implement is that anyone
who bitches about police, referees, etc, automatically
has to step in and do that job. I think that would
cut down on the bellyachin !
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
September 29th, 2011 at 5:59:07 PM
permalink
Never trust a cop. You can never tell when he will turn honest.Quote: buzzpaffThe honest ones, that is !
September 29th, 2011 at 6:09:44 PM
permalink
Quote: FleaStiffHow does that first cop know she has a permit?
I bet he has SCMODS.
September 29th, 2011 at 6:20:27 PM
permalink
/sigh. I was on the cops side until multiple reviews of the footage. The first scene (chin tapping) was probably enough for them to handcuff and carry the patron out. The guys quick spin and chest puff in scene two was grounds to get flopped. At that point by both his previous actions and his body language, the officer could've probably gotten away with an arm bar and stuffing the guy face first into the carpet. But, while his right hook/left hook combo was impressive, that's not police training. Just look at HIS body language. Looks like a tough guy at the bar standing over his fallen opponent, like someone mouthed off and he "taught him a lesson".
The punch on the ground? Meh. He WAS still resisting, and they were punches to the armpit/rib area, so in light of the previous, I think it's the least of the officers worries. Methinks this cops' goose is cooked. He could've given the patron a DDT a la Jake "The Snake" Roberts and not come off as brutal. Ah well.
The punch on the ground? Meh. He WAS still resisting, and they were punches to the armpit/rib area, so in light of the previous, I think it's the least of the officers worries. Methinks this cops' goose is cooked. He could've given the patron a DDT a la Jake "The Snake" Roberts and not come off as brutal. Ah well.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
September 29th, 2011 at 6:53:16 PM
permalink
I wonder about some of the situations where the officers have someone on the ground already. Are they really resisting, or does having your arm or shoulder twisted, being tazed, or knee in the back so you can't breathe cause a lot of involuntary struggling? Meanwhile the officers are often yelling "stop resisting".
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 29th, 2011 at 7:00:09 PM
permalink
...perhaps that's an actual technique used by bad cops. Pin the person, adminster some extra painful action, and when the person reacts you've got an excuse to really clobber him.
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 29th, 2011 at 7:12:13 PM
permalink
Quote: rxwine...perhaps that's an actual technique used by bad cops. Pin the person, adminster some extra painful action, and when the person reacts you've got an excuse to really clobber him.
Hehe, I dig what you're saying, and I imagine there must be a few who abuse their badge in this manner. "Stop resisting!" as the perp convulses with 50,000V coursing through their body. Not cool. But most courts side with cops, and I must admit, I do too. Clearly this example went too far, I don't dispute that, but a lot of people cry foul over any physical actions. I forget what it's called, but there's a ladder of force deemed reasonable for use. If someone wants to yell, you get to wrestle. If someone wants to wrestle, you get to punch. If they wanna punch, you get to mase. They mase, you taze. They taze, you shoot. Always one step above.
This guy skipped a step, and I'd bet cash money he pays for it.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
September 29th, 2011 at 7:59:29 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobAgain, its Detroit. Have you ever been to Detroit?
Here are the stats on Detroit:
White 116,599 12.26%
Black or African American 775,772 81.55%
Its a swell, magical place. You should visit
there soon...
Why have you interjected race into this thread? The topic at hand is the altercation in the casino and it is not a racial incident. The comment about relieving a cop of his gun and badge does not mention race either.
This is just like your "pull your pants up" thread when the issue was "the pants" and you just had to mention that it was a black guy you were making fun of. Your agenda is appalling.
Joseph Kulas
