MGM Grand Detroit -- bad service

Was playing $25 a hand blackjack at MGM Grand Detroit the other day. (A moment of weakness -- I don't count). 0.34% house edge over the long run, so I expect to lose ~$6/hour. Playing for entertainment and comps. I like the atmosphere here much more than other Detroit casinos.

Was playing the spot next to third base, who was a young foreigner, friendly guy. The other players were mostly foreigners. I was up about $250, and was dealt 8-8 against the dealers 7. Third base got 9-7. I split, and drew an ace on one and a 3 on the other. Doubled and got a 7 for eighteen.

Third base seems to hesitate a bit, but taps the table and clearly motions for a hit. However, he made the hit move with an open palm, so it could be seen as a stay, but he clearly tapped the table. Dealer ignores him and turns over an 8 for fifteen, draws an ace, and then a 2 to make eighteen.

He starts to take and pay and I point out that third base motioned for a hit, not a stand. Third base was very quiet and did not seem to confident in his language skills, but he also said he had motioned for a hit. Nobody else at the table spoke up for him. Another player had 21 and would have won anyway; first base had a 17 so she would have pushed instead of lost. I was looking at a $50 swing on my double down.

Pit boss comes over and assesses the situation, and makes a call to the eye in the sky. Call comes back five minutes later, and the pit boss said, "you did stand." What?! I couldn't believe they treat their players like total morons. Of course he hit on the sixteen, as 98% of people would against a seven. Really poor ruling from MGM. I thought of making a bigger stink but instead colored up and left while making some disparaging remarks about the casino. Chintzy behavior from a casino making $60 million a month.

Given that the dealer drew the 8 and then drew two more cards before anyone said anything indicates to me that both you and the third baseman was quite happy with the 15 before the two cards were drawn. There must have been a couple of seconds before cards are drawn.

My point is that if there is a mistake before hit/stand, you gotta make your point before three cards are exposed or more cards are coming out of the shoe.

The pit made the call to the eye and did his due diligence. The eye determined that a stand motion was made, enough to the point where the decision could not be overruled based on what they saw. So, MGM sucked out on that one. But the pit could have just said "too bad so sad".

I'd give the casino a C-.

The sad thing is that most pit bosses/casino staff do not seem to understand that a little positive PR goes a long way in a situation like this.

The pit boss did the correct procedural thing by calling the eye in the sky and stating that they have informed him that 3rd base stood. However, had the pit boss said, it was a push, players would have been happier, would have stayed longer, and may have told their friend about the great experience. Then again, had everyone at the table been betting multiple blacks, I would believe that the pit boss would have done more to try to keep everyone happy.

I have never seen any ruling different than the one above at any Blackjack table...regardless of if it was a $5 or $100 minimum.

Sorry. I don't buy it.

The foreigner didn't speak up until you did? Then he wasn't unhappy. You attribute his actions to a lack of assertiveness and perhaps you are correct but it seems that hand signals exist for a purpose and its either make a clear and unambiguous signal or its take the consequences or its take it elsewhere.

On the playback it looked to surveillance as a stay. Maybe it really was one. I don't know I wasn't there but I'd put the burden on the player to give clear and unambiguous signals, not on the casino to take a public relations stance. Its more important the casino take a stance of yes, its a festive setting but this is serious business and you can't give a "sort of" signal. Language skills don't mean nuttin'. Its a question of motor skills. You have the motor skills to put your chips in that little circle? You have the motor skills to execute the proper hand signals in a clear manner? Thats all she wrote.

Should our dealer have questioned you or paused or stood there singing Dixie? He is supposed to be adding up the hands as he goes along, he is supposed to be going by the hand signals that he sees. Its automatic for him. It should be automatic for the players too. They give a proper and utterly unambiguous signal and they take the consequences.

Yeah, you need to speak up right away. I was @ Hard Rock LV a few years ago at a $5 BJ table (slow weekday afternoon) and got a 13 vs a 6 upcard. Very nice dealer, but was distracted when I motioned to stand, thought I motioned to hit, and dealt me a 10 to bust. I immediately pointed it out to her, before she even started on the next player. At first she was like "Well I thought you motioned a hit", looked at what I had and she had, and realized she had to have goofed. Pit boss was very firm, but reasonable. After giving me a warning on my hand signals, he restored my bet (I think it was $15), and said we all now know the next card in the shoe is a 10. We all stood, dealer had a 16, took the 10 and busted out. He made it clear, though, the next time it happened he wasn't giving me the bet back.

I would have informed him anytime I gave a hand signal, I expected it to be executed properly. And if he had a problem with that, we could let gaming handle it right now !

Once the last player accepted the stand action - basically indicating that it was the action he wanted, and numerous cards were dealt afterwards, any late protest is deemed suspicious. Certainly, the if the dealer busted instead of making his hand, the very same players would have taken the money and said "all is fine!"

Once surveillance makes a decision on the play, the discussion is pretty much over and done with.
sounds like sour grapes.

Quote: Paigowdan

Once surveillance makes a decision on the play, the discussion is pretty much over and done with. sounds like sour grapes.

Yes. That hitting the table but with an open palm... surveillance has video only, no audio. They don't hear the table thump and they don't look at it from the side, just from overhead. Hand gestures are to be clear and unambiguous. No ambiguous signals followed a few cards later by some squabbling.

When I play I always make large hand signals, a clear scoop motion towards myself for a hit, and several waves almost like a stop so there is never any misunderstanding. What I dislike is when a player decides to stand and the dealer says no you should hit or whatever. This happened in Lake Tahoe at the lake side inn and I told the dealer if the player wanted to do blah he should be allowed to do blah. Of course what the dealer talked the player into doing ended up making me lose, but either way dealers should respect players wishes.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

What I dislike is when a player decides to stand and the dealer says no you should hit or whatever. This happened in Lake Tahoe at the lake side inn and I told the dealer if the player wanted to do blah he should be allowed to do blah. Of course what the dealer talked the player into doing ended up making me lose, but either way dealers should respect players wishes.

Whoa there!
Not quite so strong a rule.
Its good that you always use clear and unambiguous motions but dealers should pause for clarification if there is any question in the dealer's mind. That question can arise from sloppy player gestures or anything else. Suppose a player has 21 and motions for an additional card? Are you saying the dealer should hit? That player and other players at the table will be objecting. Also if a player's decision is so contrary to Basic Strategy as to call it into question then its proper for a dealer to pause and inquire and suggest a more optimal play. If the player insists on being stupid, ... so be it.

In Colorado a dealer can not give advice until after a hand is over. That includes when asked for advice. Peobably the same in your jurisdiction ?

My original complaint still stands, but I used some rather strong words in the heat of the moment that I'll leave up for effect. The pit made a decision I disagreed with. I let my feelings be known at the table and on the board. I still think it was the wrong call. If they had made a good call, I would have posted about that too.

Quote: teddys

My original complaint still stands, but I used some rather strong words in the heat of the moment that I'll leave up for effect.

It happens. They seldom help during the on-going debate, as simple facts are sought out. Human nature with money on the is what it is: often noisy, passionate, adamant, and pleading, and not always factual.
Casino view:

Quote: teddys

The pit made a decision I disagreed with.

This too happens. After a final surviellance and floor decision is made, it "is over and decided." Lingering Player feelings and opinions about the matter are dead.

Quote: teddys

I let my feelings be known at the table and on the board. I still think it was the wrong call. If they had made a good call, I would have posted about that too.

Feelings are emotions within our heads as a result of a situation going down that annoys us, quite often caused by other players taking actions we don't like when they have a right to play their hands as they see fit. They can cost us money, so it seems. Feelings have little effect on surviellance reports, police reports, and statements of witnesses, usually from the other players, the dealers and the floorman who are also involved in an incident. Feelings with money on the line can separate us from what we feel should be good calls being made, versus actual good calls that were made when the facts are in, or when examined.
What would be pointed out -
1. Third base player played his hands as see saw fit in the opinion of surviellance, made what was considered a "stay" signal; he also took no action to protest or make a refuting "hit" action, essentially saying his "stay" signal was his intent, all satisfatory to him as the player. If he had protested, or vigourously repeated a hit signal when not receiving a hit, he could have swayed surviellance's opinion by showing that the dealer "had run him over" and it was dealer the error at the table - but had not. This is not what happend. The fact that other players wanted him to take a different action as a player is immaterial, as all players play their hands as they see fit, not how other players wish how any players' play out their own hands in hindsight.
2. Players continued to accept the hand being played out as was without protest, including through moments where the dealer's hand looked as if it would bust thereby "accepting subsequent play", and where no earlier protest or error had occurred to discount the action. Only when a dealer made a surprise pat hand at the very end was a protest raised.
3. If the dealer had busted and had paid the table, no player making the money would have said, "oh! - I cannot accept this money in good conscience, as the third base player actually indicated a different "hit or stand" action, - and so it is improper for us players to accept "improper free money from the casino. I feel honor-bound to return it." This would not have happened in hindsight if the dealer drew a 10 instead of a 2 as his last card, thereby busting his hand.

I've often felt that in many situations the burden should be on the casino and that a close call situation should fall more heavily on the casino than on the public. Here, however, I would come down on the public being required to make clear and unambiguous signals. Dealers get bored and often act on the signal without first thinking of is is reasonable. I've seen people make signals at chin level... the dealer ain't looking there!!

Now it is always a problem with newbies or foreigners or drunks but other than that, it really should be simple for players to make proper and unambigous signals. Think in the practice games, we've all hit the button for "hit" when we meant to press the button for "stay". It happens. In real life I would never hit a pair of tens, but once I press the wrong button its too late.

Dealers see the signal and act, its only fair to let them see an unambiguous signal.

Quote: Paigowdan

Lingering Player feelings and opinions about the matter are dead.

Maybe that is so in the house's view. In reality, the player is highly likely to take into consideration how he or she has been treated in that casino in the past before deciding whether to risk hundreds of dollars the next time the gambling gong sounds.