The Greenbrier WV

I'll be doing a blogpost sometime this week on a stay at the Greenbrier. Stay tuned to this thread, too, for more info later I think. I'm pretty whipped at the moment but want to get the basics out there.
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I was *not* there at what conceivably could have been the busier times of Friday and Saturday. Possibly the minimums can go up. Be advised you don't just "show up" and start playing, more on that later.

BLACKJACK

$15 blackjack for the minimum whenever I saw it.
BJ Pays 3/2.
Dealer stands on soft 17.
Double after Split allowed, and you could split again at least once [perhaps more].
8 decks out of a shoe with no autoshuffle and approximately 2/3 penetration.
No surrender .
Theoretical 0.36% HE according to the WoO calculator.

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CRAPS
$10 minimum craps evenings only, after 5 [on weekdays].
Free odds were 3x4x5x
Field paid 2X on snake-eyes and boxcars.
0.374% HE on the pass line with full odds according to WoO chart.
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0/00 roulette was available, didn't play or notice the minimum.
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3 card poker was available, didn't play or notice the minimum.
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some of the slots had videopoker as one game out of multiple otherwise non-poker choices, double double bonus [I think] only, and I failed to note anything else [didn't play].

I was pretty much happy to find I could live with the minimums as I had some concern they would be higher.

This thread has the tag 'greenbrier' now and I think all threads here having to do with The Greenbrier have been tagged.

The Greenbrier casino operations were set up under a restriction that players must be staying at the hotel, with just a few other ways you would be allowed to play as a part of a special group. They have occasional Charity events that [I think] anyone could get in on, otherwise it'd be that you were a part of some conference or whatever. Some people are allowed in as a part of some local sporting club; information on that is quite sparse. You can initiate joining the Player's Club online; you don't get a player's card till you show up, but they do start emailing you room offers as low as $99 per night weekdays. I turned over the business of getting a room to my wife as always, and we certainly did not stay for that price as she got a nice room as is her wont .

The dealers were super nice and helpful, just great really. The facilities in general there are impressive, and the casino itself is no exception. The bar, bathroom, all of it is just first class. This is no place to do cheap boozing though, drinks cost plenty and are not complimentary while playing.

I really think they want more use of the casino and are in the process of dreaming up more ways to get you there. They got their arrangement under this restriction and after that other casinos opened up in WV under 'come one come all', so I would imagine that the state is already giving a wink and a nod to inventive ways to get players, such as the Charity event. Be advised, though, they are not lax about making sure you are supposed to be stepping into the casino, and that starts with just pulling up there to the Hotel. I'm not sure you could pull up and park just to go to a restaurant.

Wanted to get all this info down in this thread, my experience in particular will be in my blog later.

We look forward to your adding to this thread also.

The Greenbrier was a fine old resort with a great history and I'm sure they want to hold onto the snob appeal as long as possible but do indeed have an eye on more action in the casino. It will undoubtedly be subtle at first. Eventually it will be the Greenbrier Casino and will not be thought of as history or resort or conference center...those things will still exist but action at the casino will grow. I'd expect more outreach programs based on affinity marketing: wine appreciation seminars, cider mavens from local orchards and processors, local professional groups, etc. They want to remain upscale but they need action at the tables no matter what.

Any specifics as "super nice" dealers. Dress and demeanor were probably far higher than your average casino dealers.

Quote: odiousgambit

This thread has the tag 'greenbrier' now and I think all threads here having to do with The Greenbrier have been tagged. ...

Well, it seems that two threads are tagged "greenbrier", while four threads (including my write up from a year ago) have been tagged with the misspelled "greenbriar". And this thread is the only one to be tagged with both the correct and incorrect spelling. I don't know whether it is possible or even appropriate to correct all these tagging errors. I have never tagged a thread myself.

Quote: odiousgambit

The Greenbrier casino operations were set up under a restriction that players must be staying at the hotel.... They got their arrangement under this restriction and after that other casinos opened up in WV under 'come one come all', so I would imagine that the state is already giving a wink and a nod to inventive ways to get players....

In case anyone were to misinterpret this, the other West Virginia casinos already were in operation (except the tables at Charlestown) prior to the Greenbrier opening a casino. They started with the little Tavern Casino that was open when I visited in April 2010 then finished and opened the main casino about the same time that tables opened at Charlestown.

Quote: Doc

In case anyone were to misinterpret this, the other West Virginia casinos already were in operation (except the tables at Charlestown) prior to the Greenbrier opening a casino. They started with the little Tavern Casino that was open when I visited in April 2010 then finished and opened the main casino about the same time that tables opened at Charlestown.

I stand corrected on the facts, but I still get the feeling they will come up with more events to get more folks in there.

Quote: FleaStiff

Any specifics as "super nice" dealers. Dress and demeanor were probably far higher than your average casino dealers.

Just no sign of any surliness, fatigue, had-it-with-the-public, etc. And I would guess they have had to deal with much less in the way of cheaters. Not having to focus on that is a big help in how you wind up treating customers IMO. Should they get burned, that might cause a change. As it is, even the pit bosses were nice as pie. Dealers were cheerfully helpful on betting decisions if you asked too.

PS: there was also a poker room; people were signing up for $3/$5 no limit texas hold em, but I forgot to check out whether any games got going. Presumably so by the evening, and certainly on the weekend I would think.

Quote: odiousgambit

I still get the feeling they will come up with more events to get more folks in there.

I don't have the insight one way or another on this. As I reported in my writeup last year, my impression was that the casino was to be just another nice amenity for a fabulous resort, not the main draw. Of course, the main casino was still under construction when I was there, so things might have changed since it opened. I did receive one promotional mailing from the resort this winter/spring, and I am aware of the charity event they held at the casino last month, though I don't remember whether that was in my mailer. I don't know how often they would hold such an event. I still have the impression that the "luxury Greenbrier resort, now with a casino" is a very different animal from the "luxury Las Vegas casino resort".

Does the Greenbrier in fact have a dress code? Some of the other "grand hotels" still do. Usually nothing real strict, on the order of requiring long pants and/or shirts with collars, but it does serve to keep the clientele more attentive to their appearance.

As I stated before, I have never been to the main casino. When I visited the Tavern casino, I think all of the men were wearing jacket and tie, with women wearing comparable attire, though it may not have been required. It was perhaps just an expectation by both the management and the other guests. The main dining room definitely required jacket and tie for dinner.

Quote: odiousgambit

Just no sign of any surliness, fatigue, had-it-with-the-public, etc. And I would guess they have had to deal with much less in the way of cheaters. Not having to focus on that is a big help in how you wind up treating customers.

I would say its not just "cheaters" but more the "fleas"... the low bets, high demand, no tipping, rude, clamoring "pay me, pay me" instead of patiently waiting their turn in proper sequence. It is probably not just the absence of "shot takers".
I think a dealer who transferred from Terribles to The Greenbrier would probably love the new atmosphere but his old habits might cause him to be canned promptly.

Quote: Doc

The main dining room definitely required jacket and tie for dinner.

I tend to break dress codes into collars/jackets/jackets with ties/black tie
the last meaning tuxedo of course

They are definitely hanging on to the main dining room jacket and tie requirement and evidently enforce it.

I saw some slipping elsewhere, no one was booted but perhaps something was said I was not aware of. For example someone at the main bar was in jeans, but better attired the next day.

The casino itself is to be this, from their website:

Morning to 7PM:
Resort casual attire, including collared sport shirts, sweaters, jackets, dress slacks and walking shorts.
From 7PM:
Business casual attire. Jacket required for gentlemen; dresses, evening suits, dress slacks, dress capris for ladies.

so any reasonable attempt to look OK works in the casino until evening, then jacket, but no tie needed

Greenbrier posts losses: Blackjack and other games. One major player for some of the Blackjack loss.

The state Lottery Commission received numbers for July. The casino lost $293,000 on Blackjack. There were also losses in Roulette and Mini-Baccarat.

Lottery Director says there were some big winners during the week of The Greenbrier PGA Tour "there were several large wins but there was one in particular, by one individual," Musgrave said.

Brief Metro News article.

On edit: I know very little information is given but does anyone think that there might be something strange afoot? After all, its a bit unusual to have losses in three separate table games in the same month isn't it? Are players getting lucky there and then leaving with all their winnings? If so, the casino sure gets a different type of player than most casinos where players who get lucky generally give it all back to the casino and leave with nothing but a hangover and memories.

I would think that during the PGA Tour they may have had high rollers and crowds... perhaps a few teams hit them then as well? At a 5.26 percent edge, they had a loss? A whale or a past-poster I would think. The trouble is I just don't see all three separate and independent games turning South at the same time, even if all but the blackjack were only marginally negative.

Quote: FleaStiff

I know very little information is given but does anyone think that there might be something strange afoot? After all, its a bit unusual to have losses in three separate table games in the same month isn't it? Are players getting lucky there and then leaving with all their winnings? If so, the casino sure gets a different type of player than most casinos where players who get lucky generally give it all back to the casino and leave with nothing but a hangover and memories.

Unless there is something about deck penetration being insufficient, and I don't know a lot about that, the BJ game is countable and with very player-friendly rules about re-splitting and all that. Probably can't re-split aces, and no surrender for sure.

When I was there I didn't check out whether the roulette game had one or two zeros. Only one with low limit might be something they would do there, although I doubt it.

I can't imagine why any games other than BJ would really get big losses over the period of a month, perhaps those came close to breaking even. Nonetheless, makes you wonder if the casino didnt "go whaling" and harpoon a Moby Dick. Was somebody getting his actual losses rebated? Wouldnt be surprised. IMO the right treatment with rebates could make Baccarat work for a player too.

That type of whale = a Moby Dick? Maybe that will catch on.

Some additional information from the Richmond Times Dispatch

The West Virginia Lottery says the resort lost $66,833 from table games.
The losses included $293,893 on blackjack, $97,491 on mini baccarat and $51,135 on roulette. Other table games, including poker, generated a $375,686 profit.


Since normally Blackjack is the big money maker, some whales sure did really well.

Sounds like someone is getting a payoff.

http://www.greenbrier.com/staying-here/the-bunker/bunker-history.aspx

http://www.avhub.net/congressionalhideawaygreenbriar.htm[link/]

I've actually been interested in visiting the Greenbrier for years. One of the last times that I went to Las Vegas, it had been a tossup between Vegas and the Greenbrier. The Greenbrier is a lot closer to where I live.

On their Games page, they list both "Mini-Baccarat" and "Baccarat". Would I be correct in guessing that the latter means big table, touch the cards, etc? Does anyone remember what the table max was for Baccarat?

There's a picture on their website of some young prostitutes leaning over a roulette table, with part of the call bet racetrack visible, labelled in French. Is that an accurate depiction of something that they've got, and, if so, is it single zero by any chance?

Any Asian games -- tiles, Sic bo -- or are the six games listed on their site the only six games that they've got?

Am I correct in remembering having read somewhere that you have to pay for drinks, even if you're playing? Is their player's club any good -- anybody gotten more than a free meal out of it recently?

Thanks greatly, and apologies if I'm asking about anything that's recently been covered that I missed.

I would imagine they've used stock photos.

How do you know they are prostitutes?

Sic Bo is so rare, I would doubt they would have it but I'm sure you could email them. Their spokesman said something about 37 tables.

I think you have to pay for all drinks other than the one complimentary champagne glass.

Quote: heather

I've actually been interested in visiting the Greenbrier for years.

Don't miss the fact you must be a guest in some manner to play in the casino, usually this just means staying at the Hotel.

Quote:

Am I correct in remembering having read somewhere that you have to pay for drinks, even if you're playing?

I think that is something that the WV legislature wanted for all the casinos, is all. For the new East Coast scene you find this a lot, and in the Midwest too [from what I gather].

Quote:

Is their player's club any good -- anybody gotten more than a free meal out of it recently?

For me it has been unbelievably lame, bearing in mind I am not someone who knows how to get the most out of such. If you can impress them with your expected losses, who knows?

The only table games they have are those mentioned in the website. Sorry about your other questions, in particular I regret my tendency to ignore the roulette games when I visit a casino.

Quote: heather

Any Asian games -- tiles, Sic bo -- or are the six games listed on their site the only six games that they've got?

I'm not versed on West Virginia gaming law, but I believe there are only a handful of games that were approved for table games. All the dealers have them listed on their licenses by code. These include: Blackjack, Roulette, Craps (odds can vary per casino, some are 3,4,5, others 10x), Pai Gow Poker (with or without side bets), Three Card, Four Card, Texas Hold Em Bonus, Let It Ride, Caribbean Stud, and Baccarat, as well as live Poker. The most common side bet for BJ is the In Bet (acey-deucey).

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that WV allowed the Greenbrier to operate the way they do. It's a nice touch for guests of the hotel, but it would seem to me when gaming laws are tightly controlled, the State would want casinos to be open to everybody (to make more money).

Thanks very much for the replies. I've been interested in the Greenbrier since before there even was a casino there (I like golf), so I don't mind having to stay at the hotel to be able to play there. The drink thing is slightly annoying, though.

Now that you (Tiltpoul) mention it, I do kinda vaguely remember having read somewhere at some point about only a smallish number of table games being legal in WV. I spent some time trying to track down a law giving a list with no luck. Those dealer licenses that you mention might actually be the best source for such a list, as far as I can tell, weirdly enough. Maybe I'm just using the wrong search keywords or something, though.

Part of the reason that I spent a while looking is that, somewhere in the deep dark recesses of half-forgotten Things I Read Somewhere in the back of my memory, the words "West Virginia" and "Chuck-a-Luck" are somehow tied together. It could just be a vague recollection of having read about a single game played there a hundred years ago -- or it could have just as easily been a news story that mentioned that the game is currently legal, for all I know. Anyway, like I said, I couldn't find anything at all for sure about which games are approved, so I have no idea. But if Chuck-a-Luck (or Hazard, or Birdcage, or Crown & Anchor, etc.) is on the list, Sic bo (and, FWIW, Yee Hah Hi) should be covered under the same provision. All the same game (Crown & Anchor and Yee Hah Hi both admittedly require specialized dice -- some states say what dice have to look like, some don't). But, as also noted, Sic bo itself was kind of a longshot. I just mentioned it along with tiles as an example of the sort of thing that I meant by "Asian games", since Baccarat had already been covered.

I'm still very interested in their Baccarat game, if anyone has played there, or noticed the table limits. I'm wondering whether their website listing "Mini Baccarat" and "Baccarat" separately means that they have big table or midi, and, if they do have one (or both) of those, whether I can squeeze and, if possible, bend and tear the cards. I'm asking here because I have never once had a good experience calling a casino and asking questions about their Baccarat game. At best, I'm on hold forever while they track down someone who knows; at worst, I get bounced from one person who doesn't know to another until I either get disconnected or else find the info myself online while I'm waiting and hang up. (Bonus points if it's on the place I'm calling's own website.)

It is generally easier to simply e-mail a host at a casino. I hate it when I'm on hold and it suddenly goes to dial tone.

You don't have to stay at the hotel though, you can simply buy one of those three hundred thousand dollar lots.

Asking for a host is exactly what I should be doing. No idea why I'd never thought to. Likewise, no idea why no casino I've called has ever thought to connect me with one when I call asking questions about table games.

Quote: FleaStiff

You don't have to stay at the hotel though, you can simply buy one of those three hundred thousand dollar lots.

Well, I'd need to get that question about Baccarat table limits resolved before making that decision....

Additions and corrections.

The Champagne Mutual Toast to Good Fortune takes place at 8:00pm, not 6:00pm as that often inaccurate Fleastiff originally reported.

The question is best settled by a more authoritative source such as an email from a casino host but I do believe that much to my surprise the game of Baccarat is not available, only Mini-Baccarat is available. This is, of course, the same game, just in a different setting and with different limits though I do not have any details as to seating or actual limits. As usual, many reporters and even casino press releases use the term "Baccarat" rather loosely and do not differentiate between Bacc and MiniBacc. The Nevada Gaming types apparently do make a distinction and certainly table limits usually differ and does Rate of Play (and therefore Comps).

In a place that not only has a dress code but strictly enforces it, I would have expected it to be "big table baccarat" atleast in the High Limit alcove, but it seems only MiniBacc is available and I found no information as to how many tables, chairs or what the limits are.

Please note that the 300,000 dollar lots and million dollar homes may actually be good investments.