Rincon San Diego Retaliates
It appears that the head of free play doesn't want players only to use free play -- and that you must also play with cash -- or your account will be targeted and free play will be cut off.
The most insulting part of this -- and my own host couldn't understand it -- was that $80 of weekly free play was cut off for a player (me) who had $400,000 of coin-in in a month. Where's the logic in that?
I'll answer my own question: there is no logic and it's absolutely stupid. But it shows just how small minded bean counters are.
This is a childish retaliation against a Seven Stars player who used free play when available and didn't open his own wallet on certain days. But it was a stupid retaliation because by cutting off $80 per week of free play, this Seven Stars player (me) has been insulted and alienated to the point that he won't return. Yes -- cutting off $80 of weekly free play just cost Rincon a player who on an average visit would put $50,000+ of coin-in on video poker.
Keep counting your beans.
I never understand why gamblers don't like and respect bean counters as they both do the same thing, play the %s and look for AP opportunities.
As I said I'd have $400,000 of coin-in during the month but might not use my own cash on a day I used $80 of free play.
Sometimes I won with that $80 free play and didn't have to use my own cash.
You're dealing with casinos, Alan. Grow up.
No story here.
I'm wondering if there might be more to their decision. Something tailored towards you specifically, or just an over-site.Quote: AlanMendelsonHarrah's Resort Southern California also known as Harrah's Rincon cancelled my free play offers for September (worth about $80 per week) because I played sessions using only free play, or downloaded free play, without playing any actual cash. This was done despite that during the months in question -- in other sessions during the month -- I had more than $400,000 of coin-in recorded by Total Rewards.
It appears that the head of free play doesn't want players only to use free play -- and that you must also play with cash -- or your account will be targeted and free play will be cut off.
The most insulting part of this -- and my own host couldn't understand it -- was that $80 of weekly free play was cut off for a player (me) who had $400,000 of coin-in in a month. Where's the logic in that?
I'll answer my own question: there is no logic and it's absolutely stupid. But it shows just how small minded bean counters are.
This is a childish retaliation against a Seven Stars player who used free play when available and didn't open his own wallet on certain days. But it was a stupid retaliation because by cutting off $80 per week of free play, this Seven Stars player (me) has been insulted and alienated to the point that he won't return. Yes -- cutting off $80 of weekly free play just cost Rincon a player who on an average visit would put $50,000+ of coin-in on video poker.
Keep counting your beans.
I seen a few negative comments and lack of sympathy for you(perhaps that's because of your successes) I understand your frustration, because 400k in is a pretty significant amount. I agree this is a bad decision on the casinos part. Good luck, I hope they realize their error. If not I'm certain you have other options.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI received no offers for September. When I asked why I was told I was cut off because I used previous free play offers without playing my own cash on those free play days. They ignored my play on other days during the month.
As I said I'd have $400,000 of coin-in during the month but might not use my own cash on a day I used $80 of free play.
Sometimes I won with that $80 free play and didn't have to use my own cash.
I don't know if I would trust the Host. I received no offers for September either and I didn't use any free play. I get offers from them every month.
You're better off calling the Marketing Manager on Tuesday morning and getting the information straight from the source.
ZCore13
i'd ask you this: how much do you think rincon makes off you a year after all the comps/free play they give you? do you think you are more or less valuable than the average patron who puts the same amount of coin in through? do you think the casino should try to increase their profit margin on marginal players?
Its a CET property (either owned or managed)
CET sent out strict orders: Perform miracles to keep us afloat or you will be eating only beans as well as counting them all day long.
coin in don't mean nothin'. Its "coins out of coin purse". It is your action which means what you put on the line, not what you have up in your room or in your pocket or in the machine already.
Nickel and dime-ing you to death is what bean counters do for a living and they tend to do it very well particularly when their jobs are on the line.
Its like you want to show up on Wednesday and only do the gym, spa, pool booze and restaurant routine, but not gamble. they don't care what you do on other days, once the computer has flagged your Wednesday activities the bean counters are salivating and will pounce.
You have to be in the computer as a drunk, heavy hitter who loses his shirt to them.... or as close to that as you can fake it.
I suppose if you played black chip BJ poorly, you'd feel welcome.
No one's accusing you of such (fantasy).Quote: AlanMendelsonI never claimed to have a profit playing video poker.
Like the show "Cheers", with its on again/off again "romance". Where everybody knows your name.Quote: IbeatyouracesJust stay away for a few years?
I was cut off from $80 per week of free play. 4x80=320 free play in a month.
In a month i put through $400,000 coin-in on a 99.2% game which gave the casino $3200 per month.
I never stayed in the hotel so I never cost them anything there.
https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?31140-BJ-Results-YTD/page3
Quote: IbeatyouracesRead post #25 by Stealth. Especially the last two sentences.
https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?31140-BJ-Results-YTD/page3
I had plenty of play. The issue is that perhaps once or twice a month I did not use any cash out of pocket. Still I averaged $400,000 coin-in during the month.
Do you still think the free play cut off was warranted?
The bottom line for Rincon is this: by cutting off $80 of free play a week they lost a player who put in on average $400,000 coin-in a month. If they think that was a good decision then fine -- because that's what they've got.
Regardless of any kind of rule about cancelling if no money is played, even if it is written in small print, this is a horrible decision. $320 free play a month is crap for the money he put through and the way they divide it into weekly insures they can only lose pennies. This is money he has already earned and they are giving back very small return in hopes of future big play. I mean a seven start player over many months years. You are going to lose that kind of player over $80? Peanuts? I mean this is the kind of player they give cruises to. Give $5000 shopping sprees, to keep coming back. (no return on those) $80? and they have lost a seven star customer. lol
And no it isn't about they have determined he is AP and not worth it to them. If that were the case, no offers would have been received. Oh and someone (zoobrew) mentioned what they really want is the little old lady.....um like Mrs Mendleson, or or Alan's sister or friend that accompanies him.
See even if a casino determines that a certain high level player is not the most desirable player, perhaps they are making less that they think there should, the casino should be figuring spouses, relatives and friends that are accompanying him into the equation, which makes him worth much more to them. That is the epic fail on their part. Instead, now they lose him, his spouse, friends and even acquantainces that he is now bad mouthing the property to.
That's a great marketing strategy. Kind of like drilling holes in the bottom of the titanic to let the flood water out of the boat. lol
I've known quite a few people in high casino management. Let me just say that it isn't just about dollars and sense to them but they sometimes make decisions emotionally. In particular, they hate to get stiffed. If they give a player free play mailer, then they pretty much expect to get some action while that player is there. Especially at a place like Rincon that is way out in the sticks and not close to anything. If it is a good solid player and he stiffs them just once in a while, they will let that go. But if it is combined with playing only the most liberal games and/or on the biggest multiplier days, they will have no compunction to do whatever they can after getting stiffed on a mailer. They know what advantage play is too and it is a huge red AP flag to cash in a free play mailer and not give them a dime in additional action. I am not saying this is right or wrong, just advising how it is.
My strong advice to everybody is that if you redeem some free play, at least give them 2x the amount to give them some face and to not set off any red flags. It is for your own benefit to do this.
Quote: WizardThere is a very similar thread to this about a similar incident at the Atlantic City Tropicana.
I've known quite a few people in high casino management. Let me just say that it isn't just about dollars and sense to them but they sometimes make decisions emotionally. In particular, they hate to get stiffed. If they give a player free play mailer, then they pretty much expect to get some action while that player is there. Especially at a place like Rincon that is way out in the sticks and not close to anything. If it is a good solid player and he stiffs them just once in a while, they will let that go. But if it is combined with playing only the most liberal games and/or on the biggest multiplier days, they will have no compunction to do whatever they can after getting stiffed on a mailer. They know what advantage play is too and it is a huge red AP flag to cash in a free play mailer and not give them a dime in additional action. I am not saying this is right or wrong, just advising how it is.
My strong advice to everybody is that if you redeem some free play, at least give them 2x the amount to give them some face and to not set off any red flags. It is for your own benefit to do this.
Here in Vegas I have never had a problem with this. I would say my partner and I play only the free play about 50% of the time. A typical scenario is we get freeplay at XXX casino 4 times during the month. At least twice we will only play the free play and maybe grab a meal, while the other two visits will include at least one big play to keep the future free plays and other offers coming. As I said, not once have we been penalized for this. Maybe it's a different mindset in Vegas??
Should be noted, I am talking about locals type places here not CET, which we don't play.
Quote: kewljHere in Vegas I have never had a problem with this.
It is going to be a bit different in Vegas for locals. They expect locals to be smarter, which is why we generally get worse offers than tourists.
If you are a regular player and give them good play every other mailer, you're probably okay. It would depend if you set off other red flags. What really annoys slot managers is when they try to bring in a latent player with some free play and he comes in, collects it, and then leaves. That will quickly get somebody on the PNG list.
Quote: WizardThere is a very similar thread to this about a similar incident at the Atlantic City Tropicana.
I've known quite a few people in high casino management. Let me just say that it isn't just about dollars and sense to them but they sometimes make decisions emotionally. In particular, they hate to get stiffed. If they give a player free play mailer, then they pretty much expect to get some action while that player is there. Especially at a place like Rincon that is way out in the sticks and not close to anything. If it is a good solid player and he stiffs them just once in a while, they will let that go. But if it is combined with playing only the most liberal games and/or on the biggest multiplier days, they will have no compunction to do whatever they can after getting stiffed on a mailer. They know what advantage play is too and it is a huge red AP flag to cash in a free play mailer and not give them a dime in additional action. I am not saying this is right or wrong, just advising how it is.
My strong advice to everybody is that if you redeem some free play, at least give them 2x the amount to give them some face and to not set off any red flags. It is for your own benefit to do this.
They casinos are defiantly shutting off offers and I think wizard is right - but in reality who knows what the correct amount of play to give in addition to freeplay is. Basically if I go and have a big trip because I run good and they send me mail it should just be viewed as a possibility that I get that offer. I'm not sure how r is not considered an outright bait and switched. No different then self excluding and then having them send you mail and inviting you back in
Red flags? Lol.Quote: WizardMy strong advice to everybody is that if you redeem some free play, at least give them 2x the amount to give them some face and to not set off any red flags. It is for your own benefit to do this.
My strong advice is to stop trying to figure out casinos; and do something (genuine) for yourself..
Quote: DoubleOrNothingRed flags? Lol.
My strong advice is to stop trying to figure out casinos; and do something (genuine) for yourself..
You give poor advice.
But yes, I believe casinos oftentimes react emotionally rather than logically. They'll spend $5,000 just to make sure they don't lose $100. It's basically a "Don't f*** with us, we'll spend all our money just so you can't get a penny of ours" kind of attitude.
Quote: WizardAs an example of what I'm talking about, a casino close to my house offered me a free room anytime before a certain date. My brother was coming to visit it so I asked for the room and gave it to him. However, I gave them a couple hours of solid play, just out of respect and longevity of the relationship. I timed my play to fall today because they were doing a 7x points promotion for Labor Day, so double dipping for me, and they should be happy too.
I'm surprised. Is this an advantage play or just succumbing to their usual loss leader trap?
And why would you play more than the free play amount when the free play amount is either enough or led to a winning session?
While it doesn't happen often I've had free play money that hit a royal or quad aces, etc.
Quote: AlanMendelson...While it doesn't happen often I've had free play money that hit a royal or quad aces, etc.
I have too. 9 hands in...
I don't see too many, nay, any, real and independent (of the casino industry) mathematicians advocating for "joining the circus".Quote: RSYou give poor advice.
But yes, continue with trying to make sense of something from the ass end of nowhere, and on the internet. Lol.Quote: RSBut yes, I believe casinos oftentimes react emotionally rather than logically. They'll spend $5,000 just to make sure they don't lose $100. It's basically a "Don't f*** with us, we'll spend all our money just so you can't get a penny of ours" kind of attitude.
The casinos don't even know or care that you and Alan exist. Not really. Why would they change their ways at each turn so a couple of guys could make some sense of those in your own, relatively speaking, insignificant situations? Nobody cares what Alan writes online.
Even the tabloids show more actual proof of anything than you guys. Except for the "gambling math". But who cares? The casino tables are virtually empty of that sort of "invisible math" because it either doesn't really work. Not at least as far as the Wizard's gambling income? I doubt that he, like the other "mathematicians" here, even plays.
CIAO.
Quote: DoubleOrNothing...Even the tabloids show more actual proof of anything than you guys. Except for the "gambling math". But who cares? The casino tables are virtually empty of that sort of "invisible math" because it either doesn't really work. Not at least as far as the Wizard's income?
Yeah, I have no idea how I'm making a living...
He already said so: "out of respect and longevity of the relationship."Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm surprised. Is this an advantage play or just succumbing to their usual loss leader trap?
And why would you play more than the free play amount when the free play amount is either enough or led to a winning session?
That's what you're missing, and that's why you're getting disinvited from casinos. Because you're not respecting the relationship. It's a service business, like anything else, and no service business wants to deal with people who are sometimes cheapskates and try to game the system.
I mean, imagine you tried pulling that at a Mexican restaurant. Sometimes you'd order drinks, appetizers, and entrees, but other times you just sat there drinking water and filling up on free chips and salsa, only to leave without ordering anything or spending a dime. Do you think the restaurant would welcome your patronage as much as a consistent customer?
Your theo would need to be very high in order to convince the casino to put up with that bipolar play pattern, and it's not. It's not a bean-counter thing at all -- clearly, your overall theoretical value to the casino is positive. But it's not positive *enough* to warrant them dealing with your frequent abuse of their marketing programs. You don't respect the relationship the casino is attempting to have with you, and they're not interested in the relationship you're trying to have with them. Their house, their rules. For what it's worth, they're being very transparent about what kind of play behavior they value and what kind they don't. What you do with that information is up to you.
Even more puzzling is why you continue to post ignorant anti-gambling rhetoric on a gambling forum. Alan's query is a legitimate one -- he doesn't understand how a casino's marketing department operates vis-a-vis his play pattern. But you don't even recognize the question as valid because you apparently hate the whole casino industry. So why are you here?Quote: DoubleOrNothingBut yes, continue with trying to make sense of something from the ass end of nowhere, and on the internet. Lol.
Nor does anyone else because it's all baloney on the internet.Quote: IbeatyouracesYeah, I have no idea how I'm making a living...
Put up, or shut up? Lol.
Looking for proof other than "gambling math" isn't being anti-gambling.Quote: MathExtremistEven more puzzling is why you continue to post ignorant anti-gambling rhetoric on a gambling forum. Alan's query is a legitimate one -- he doesn't understand how a casino's marketing department operates vis-a-vis his play pattern. But you don't even recognize the question as valid because you apparently hate the whole casino industry. So why are you here?
I suppose that if you have none, eg of, say, what you said of the Wiz's income, then you might want to interpret what I say and ask to be ignorant.
Ignorance is a lack of understanding. Fill me in.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm surprised. Is this an advantage play or just succumbing to their usual loss leader trap?
You got me pegged. Give me $5 in free play and I'll come in and lose $5,000. I'm also stupid enough to think that that answer to a certain dice problem is 1 in 11. You can't trust anything I say.
Quote: DoubleOrNothingNor does anyone else because it's all baloney on the internet.
Put up, or shut up? Lol.
Baloney, steaks, prime rib, etc.
What did I say of the Wiz's income? That he sold his web properties? http://observer.com/2015/03/michael-shackleford-is-the-wizard-of-odds/Quote: DoubleOrNothingLooking for proof other than "gambling math" isn't being anti-gambling.
I suppose that if you have none, eg of, say, what you said of the Wiz's income, then you might want to interpret what I say and ask to be ignorant.
Ignorance is a lack of understanding. Fill me in.
Otherwise, what proof are you talking about? Proof of what -- that advantage players exist and are making money? If you want the various APs here to post their tax returns, ask them to. They'll say no. I'm not an AP and I'm not going to post my tax returns either.
Quote: MathExtremistWhat did I say of the Wiz's income? That he sold his web properties? http://observer.com/2015/03/michael-shackleford-is-the-wizard-of-odds/
Otherwise, what proof are you talking about? Proof of what -- that advantage players exist and are making money? If you want the various APs here to post their tax returns, ask them to. They'll say no. I'm not an AP and I'm not going to post my tax returns either.
Let these types keep thinking what they think.
Quote: MathExtremistHe already said so: "out of respect and longevity of the relationship."
That's what you're missing, and that's why you're getting disinvited from casinos. Because you're not respecting the relationship. It's a service business, like anything else, and no service business wants to deal with people who are sometimes cheapskates and try to game the system.
It appears you missed what I wrote.
I put through $400,000 of coin-in during the month, and they gave me $80 of free play in a week. Their "problem" is that on some of the days I either played or downloaded the free play I did not use my own cash. While this is true, what about the other days during the month when I did play my $400,000 of coin-in?
QUESTION: Must you play your own cash on the same day that you download or use free play? That is the question.
And if so -- do you cut off a player who plays $400,000 of coin-in during the month when on one or two days during the month he used only his free play?
By the way, I will email a photo of my page on the Total Rewards website to anyone who questions my coin-in or "tier points" earned so far in 2015. I don't want anyone to think I am making up numbers. And if they would like to post it on this forum IT IS OKAY WITH ME.
Quote: AlanMendelson..QUESTION: Must you play your own cash on the same day that you download or use free play? That is the question...
Very possible.
Now they will have to consider how much that decision is worth to them and what's more valuable -- their $80 of free play or my $400,000 of coin-in during a month.
By the way, I've never stayed overnight at Rincon so they aren't losing any money putting me up in their hotel. I don't receive any special offers and comps either so you can't argue that I am costing Rincon/Caesars money in different areas.
And I have to ask this question: is there anyone who would want to play by these rules? Free play can be downloaded only until midnight. What if you arrive at the casino at 11:45pm and download your free play -- but then don't play till the following morning? Should they cut off your free play for that?
I'm sure there are some things at which you're good. Everyone is good at something.Quote: WizardYou can't trust anything I say.
Good answer to some other question. But a waste of time. Next?Quote: IbeatyouracesBaloney, steaks, prime rib, etc.
The stuff about the Wizard making more than an actuary. Something about 20 million dollars with his sites. True or false?Quote: MathExtremistOtherwise, what proof are you talking about? Proof of what -- that advantage players exist and are making money?
Who (else) said anything about tax returns?Quote: MathExtremistIf you want the various APs here to post their tax returns, ask them to. They'll say no. I'm not an AP and I'm not going to post my tax returns either.
Credibility involves proof. Pick your poison. Sorry, no excuses.
Sensible persons inquire about proved earnings before embarking on a serious career. Do you work for a casino too?
Don't worry. Proof and thinking are separate entities. People without proof focus on their own way of "thinking".Quote: IbeatyouracesLet these types keep thinking what they think.
Gone for another popsicle...
Quote: AlanMendelsonIbeatyouraces -- if that's the case that I must play my own cash on the same day that I use free play then they will just have to do without me...
That's what I'd do. Plenty of other "stores" as we call them.
