Horseshoe Baltimore

The Horseshoe Baltimore is opening August 26th. They claim on their website they will be offering 100X odds on craps, which would amaze me. Has anyone else heard anything about this?

Every Horseshoe owned by Caesars offers this as far as I know. One of the few liberal gaming rules they offer. Your state will have you covered on blackjack though.

Yes by Maryland gaming rules, all blackjacks must pay 3:2

On page 17
Under "X. Pass Line and Come Odds", you'll see that they do have 100x odds.

It's a great gimmick to get people through the doors...I'd imagine the minimums will be $15-25 for at least the first few months, and I certainly won't be backing $1500-2500 behind my pass line bet. I'd wonder how many people take full advantage of the 10X odds at MD Live.

And yes, MD doesn't give leeway on the core game rules. Casinos can offer all kinds of side bets and adjust those odds, but the core game rules are identical from one place to the next.

Slightly off topic, MD Live has changed things a bit as the Horseshoe nears opening. They added another pit of blackjack, limits have come back down to Earth (more $15 tables), and they added a pit of $25 hi-top mini baccarat tables by the Ram's Head concert stage.

any word on opening day specials?

Quote: UTHfan

any word on opening day specials?

I'd check the website AND the local media outlet which has been running video tours of the construction area and video interviews.

I mean I checked the website and it's useless. Maybe local degenerates with higher ranges got some mailers.

Their website is the standard Caesars casino website that all the properties use. I imagine MD Live is going to have something going on opening night though...

Well, they opened last night, with thousands of people waiting in line while the venue had already reached capacity of 6800 people. Whenever I visit, I will try to confirm the 100x odds. However, rumor on the poker boards says that craps had a $25 minimum on opening night, which is not surprising considering most craps games at Maryland Live are also $25 minimum.

They did sent free play to CZR AC players as they ran a promotion for about 4 weeks where you received $5 in free slot play at HB for every 250 tier credits earned or something like that.

Yeah I can confirm this I got some free play based on my AC action. The place is going to mobbed for a while though. Don't anticipate I'll make a trip there for a while. Even though its only maybe 25 min from my house.

The fact they opened at 9 on a Tuesday night and had to hold people in line some for two or more hours is crazy. I am sure while the novelty lasts minimums will be high, though they do have 122 tables. I would think they will do good business but obviously that may have been the biggest crowd they are going to get. An even bigger money maker is coming in two years to Maryland with MGM right across from Northern Virginia.

I did not make it on opening night, but I did visit the new Horseshoe Baltimore yesterday, arriving around noon as I was just passing through the area. At that time on day #2, all of the craps tables were still operating at a $25 minimum. That is above my comfort level, so I didn't even bother to ask whether they were really offering 100x odds. They were doing some sort of set-up on one table, but all of the other craps tables were active -- all were busy, but there was plenty of room to get a spot at mid-day. I played a while, lost some money, and collected my souvenir chip. Not surprisingly at all, it was in very good condition. ;-)

While I was not interested in playing other games, I noticed a few blackjack tables on the second level that had $15 minimums at that time, but I didn't check out the rules. All of the BJ tables that I saw on the lower level were $25 minimum.

I was in the middle of a long day's drive, so I didn't explore the whole place. It was noisy, and a guitar player/singer was trying to perform on a stage in the middle, with exposure to multiple floors. I overheard other people commenting on how much bigger the place is than the other MD casinos.

Sounds like Maryland Live's estimate of losing 40% might be on the low side.

Quote: Doc

I did not make it on opening night, but I did visit the new Horseshoe Baltimore yesterday, arriving around noon as I was just passing through the area. At that time on day #2, all of the craps tables were still operating at a $25 minimum. That is above my comfort level, so I didn't even bother to ask whether they were really offering 100x odds. They were doing some sort of set-up on one table, but all of the other craps tables were active -- all were busy, but there was plenty of room to get a spot at mid-day. I played a while, lost some money, and collected my souvenir chip. Not surprisingly at all, it was in very good condition. ;-)

While I was not interested in playing other games, I noticed a few blackjack tables on the second level that had $15 minimums at that time, but I didn't check out the rules. All of the BJ tables that I saw on the lower level were $25 minimum.

I was in the middle of a long day's drive, so I didn't explore the whole place. It was noisy, and a guitar player/singer was trying to perform on a stage in the middle, with exposure to multiple floors. I overheard other people commenting on how much bigger the place is than the other MD casinos.

Thanks for the quick report Doc..that's frankly what I expected the first few days. It amuses me to hear people say its so much bigger. It's actually a little smaller than MD Live I think. But it's much bigger than the other casino closest to Baltimore, the Hollywood in Perryville. So maybe that's what people were referring to.

I think MD live expecting a 40% decline is pessimistic for them. I'd say the customer base at MD live is split about 50/50 between Baltimore people and DC people. They may lose say 1/2 of the Baltimore people. So that would be maybe a 25% decline but 40% is hard to imagine.

Now when National Harbor outside DC opens in a couple of years, 40% is easily believable maybe more like 50-60 percent. Nat'l. Harbor will capture anyone coming from the south. Horseshoe Balt. anyone coming from the North. MD Live is going to be stuck with the tweeners. Not an insignificant market but not the near monopoly of two cities they have now.

Quote: vendman1

It amuses me to hear people say its so much bigger. It's actually a little smaller than MD Live I think. But it's much bigger than the other casino closest to Baltimore, the Hollywood in Perryville. So maybe that's what people were referring to.

As I noted, I did not explore the extent of the Horseshoe. In addition, my only (brief) visits to Hollywood Perryville and Maryland Live! were a year ago, and I didn't really explore those facilities either. I'm just a chip collector. I really couldn't say from memory which one is the largest. Maryland Live! is a bit deceiving because of the way it is attached to the shopping mall, while the multi-floor configuration of the Horseshoe's gaming area can also distort perceptions.

They haven't bothered to update their website for poker promotions but they've updated the Bravo app.
I checked this morning on Bravo on my android and they have a pretty cool step by step bad beat promotion, so if you lose queens full, you get a certain amount, kings full a little more, and so on to the full actual bad beat.
Tournaments start in October apparently.

The first place I ever seen offering 100X odds was Binion's Horseshoe in Las Vegas. This was in the nineties and I think there was a craps war going on at the time with houses offering varying amounts of free odds. Binion's trumped them all by offering 100X.

Don't quote me on this but I think the 100X odds cuts the HA on Pass with free odds down to about .2%. Does anyone know the true number?

Off by a decimal point

an order of magnitude, Sir

ye of hefty bankroll would be enjoying -0.021% HE with your eye-popping bets

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt Rivera offer 1000x Odds a couple of years ago? I think I remember seeing it advertised in Vegas. Not sure again how many people will put $5000 behind a $5 line bet, but someone might have.

I am headed down to Baltimore next week and will do a quick report on what I find.

Quote: Boz

Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt Rivera offer 1000x Odds a couple of years ago? I think I remember seeing it advertised in Vegas. Not sure again how many people will put $5000 behind a $5 line bet, but someone might have.

When I went there, the table was $10 minimum, $5000 maximum, so you actually couldn't do more than 500x odds. They might as well have advertised infinite odds (up to table limit). Still, I saw plenty of 2x-5x odds, but no more. I did see someone playing 100x at Casino Royale one time.

Quote: ChampagneFireball

When I went there, the table was $10 minimum, $5000 maximum, so you actually couldn't do more than 500x odds. They might as well have advertised infinite odds (up to table limit). Still, I saw plenty of 2x-5x odds, but no more. I did see someone playing 100x at Casino Royale one time.

Usually the table max does not apply to odds, and/or they list a separate max for odds.

Went down Friday afternoon from about 2PM-4PM to check things out, then I was back again today from 8AM-3PM to really try my luck.

First, they've done a great job with this casino. There are high ceilings and a good amount of natural light - a stark contrast to what's on offer at Maryland Live! just a few miles south. The live band playing in the center of the downstairs bar can get a bit loud, but it's a casino - I go in expecting to be overstimulated. The diamond lounge is well appointed with comfy leather chairs and sofas and a nice bar. It's up on the 2nd floor near the high roller slots.

Both yesterday afternoon and this morning/early afternoon the crowds were pretty light. They had a few $15 craps tables open both times I went, along with the $25/$50 tables. Yes - I can confirm 100x odds, though I didn't go any higher than 10x odds, myself - didn't need to blow my bankroll on a single throw of the dice. The pit crew is still getting their sea legs. About half were seasoned, the other half were still learning how to pay out properly. Definitely recommend staying away from the craps tables for a bit if you're looking for a lightning-fast crew. Still, they were friendly, made a conscious effort to use your name, and were very appreciative of the action I put on the line for them.

After cashing out a couple hundred up on craps, I sat and played Ultimate Texas Hold'em for awhile. All the dealers were nice, but they are definitely still learning the rules. I did the honest thing and stopped the dealer from paying me on my ante (three separate times) when she didn't qualify with a pair or better. Guess that translated into some good karma, because I hit a couple of full houses that put me up a few hundred on the table before I cashed out to go check out the slots.

If my experience with the slots is anything to go by, they are as loose as any I've seen. I got to bring home a W-2G form from a $1350 jackpot, and I left the casino about $3,000 up. The high roller slots area wasn't packed at all, yet I saw at least 3 hand pays in the short time I was there. For you VP players, the best JoB machine I saw was 9/5 payout on $5. Most of the dollar machines were 8/5, with 7/5 for quarters/multi-line (usual Caesars VP odds).

Today was an "event day" because of the Ohio St. vs. Navy football game going on at M&T Bank Stadium next door. That meant $60 self-park, $80 valet instead of the normally free self-park and $20 valet ($10 for Gold/Platinum, free for Diamond/7 Stars). However, they will give you $60 at the cage to pay for your parking on event days if you earn at least 100 tier credits - you just have to swipe your card at the promotional booth next to the Total Rewards desk. Parking will be like this for every Ravens game day.

Overall, I really liked the vibe in the new Horseshoe. Looking forward to going back.

Uh huh. The only thing loose Horseshoe can probably afford are loose bowels.

that beyond nuts for parking 80 for valet? I can park at the plaza in nyc for less then that

maybe there is an ap play with running cards through for 60 reimbursement lol

Quote: strictlyAP

that beyond nuts for parking 80 for valet? I can park at the plaza in nyc for less then that

maybe there is an ap play with running cards through for 60 reimbursement lol

Yeah - $80 is insane, even for being so close to the stadium. At least it only applies to home game days.

The cage is supposed to check to make sure you've got a parking ticket in hand, but I don't recall them asking for mine.

apparently results are disappointing as the numbers are in for the first time.

you gotta think they blew it, Maryland Live was ripe for shedding disgruntled players, and apparently it didnt happen. These casinos are really close to each other.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/horseshoe-casino-baltimore-is-not-raking-in-as-much-cash-as-state-officials-expected/2014/12/05/ae5d734c-7cd1-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2014/12/05/maryland-casino-revenue-surpasses-90m-in-november.html

Quote: odiousgambit

apparently results are disappointing as the numbers are in for the first time.

you gotta think they blew it, Maryland Live was ripe for shedding disgruntled players, and apparently it didnt happen. These casinos are really close to each other.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/horseshoe-casino-baltimore-is-not-raking-in-as-much-cash-as-state-officials-expected/2014/12/05/ae5d734c-7cd1-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2014/12/05/maryland-casino-revenue-surpasses-90m-in-november.html

I am surprised.
Horseshoe has much better VP than Md Live.

Wonder why horseshoe isn't making as much as expected?

I still haven't been to Horseshoe, but I think MD Live being at the mall is a big factor. Around this time of year people are spending more time indoors (not wandering around the Inner Harbor) and shopping (mall).

I also think MD Live is closer to the majority of the wealth in the surrounding area. I Most people are going to go to what's closest, not necessarily the best games to play. (If Horseshoe even does have better games. I don't know enough about the games offered at the two casinos. Horseshoe does offer 100x craps, but how many people are seriously looking for that?)

Quote: 100xOdds

Wonder why horseshoe isn't making as much as expected?

a mystery to a degree, but on the other hand they aren't offering anything irresistible and not doing much to entice players to come back [from what I can tell]

maybe the bankruptcy problem for the main corporation is tying their hands

Maryland Live! did $53.8 million in November which is an absolutely huge number. They must be doing something right. I hate going in there because the traffic is always horrible. The location in the mall works pretty well for them, though. I think we'll be seeing more mall casinos in the future.

Quote: teddys

Maryland Live! did $53.8 million in November which is an absolutely huge number. They must be doing something right. I hate going in there because the traffic is always horrible. The location in the mall works pretty well for them, though. I think we'll be seeing more mall casinos in the future.

Shame on Maryland Live!. It did $53.8 million, with all that winnings, so why did the casino backroom Justin, a losing skilled player? Now Justin takes legal action against Maryland Live, see below.


http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiryDetail.jis?caseId=02C14190223&loc=60&detailLoc=ODYCIVIL
The case# is 02C14190223

Video#1 (on the casino floor): Forcing Justin into the backroom by twisting his arm:



Video#2 (Inside the backroom)

Quote: 100xOdds

I am surprised.
Horseshoe has much better VP than Md Live.

Wonder why horseshoe isn't making as much as expected?

Two things...Yes MD Live and the Horseshoe are fairly close geographically, only maybe 20 miles apart. But what helps MD Live a bunch is that it's roughly halfway between Balt. and DC. They are getting essentially all of the DC market plus a decent chunk of the Balt. market. Whereas the Horseshoe is drawing mostly just from the Balt. metro area.

The DC metro area (this goes way into VA, and MD for those that don't know)...has 4 or 5 million people. MD Live is the closest casino for most of those people...they'd have to drive 20 miles or so farther up the road to get to the Horseshoe. Whereas the Balt. Metro area goes more north up closer to DE and NJ etc. So if you live in the northern suburbs of Balt. you are just as close to the DE casinos or Hollywood Perryville in northern MD. So basically the Horseshoe has some competition and MD Live less so. What is going to kill MD Live's business eventually is the opening of the MGM at National Harbor, in PG county MD right across from DC. A lot of the people driving to MD Live now will have a much shorter commute, to the MGM. Long term there is plenty of business in the area for all of those casinos to make money though.

The mall thing is also helping MD Live...you can literally walk from the food court, very briefly outside, and get to the casino. I'm sure there are a lot of people dropping $50 or $100 bucks in the slots while at the mall anyway. The Horseshoe on the other hand is right next to the Ravens stadium. So on game days/or concerts or whatever.. it's busy. But thats 15-20 days a year. The rest of the time that part of downtown Balt. is commercial/industrial not a lot to do other than the casino. The inner harbor is NOT within walking distance. Despite the claims of the chamber of commerce. The mall at Arundel Mills is ALWAYS busy.

Or it just could be Loveman and CZR screw everything they touch up. Only company that can turn gold into sh#t.

Quote: vendman1

what helps MD Live a bunch is that it's roughly halfway between Balt. and DC.

it's really much closer to Baltimore, however, I think many share this perception

Quote: wudged

I still haven't been to Horseshoe, but I think MD Live being at the mall is a big factor. Around this time of year people are spending more time indoors (not wandering around the Inner Harbor) and shopping (mall).

I also think MD Live is closer to the majority of the wealth in the surrounding area. I Most people are going to go to what's closest, not necessarily the best games to play. (If Horseshoe even does have better games. I don't know enough about the games offered at the two casinos. Horseshoe does offer 100x craps, but how many people are seriously looking for that?)

I've been to both. Horseshoe is definitely a nicer property and has better a better table game offering. All BJ comes from shoes, with no CSM games that I saw (MD state law sets payout rules, so no variation there). Horseshoe makes a point they deal $10 blackjack from 10am-10pm every day...MD Live is almost never under $15, and usually $25+ at busier times. I've seen $50 squeeze baccarat several times at Horseshoe, while at MD Live it's never under $100, and often $200 mins. Also, Horseshoe feels much more classy and much less cramped than MD Live. It has the opulence that I would expect to find (but haven't) at Caesars AC or Caesars Palace.

Only time will tell, but I wonder if the city would have been better off allowing the Horseshoe closer to the Inner Harbor than they did. It would be much easier for visitors and convention-goers to access, and it wouldn't be any harder for people at Orioles or Ravens games to get to than the current location.

As a resident of northern Virginia, I prefer Charles Town. Limits are more reasonable and the distance tends to be more consistent timewise. The Baltimore Washington parkway can make taking 270 to WV the shorter route occasionally.

I can totally believe the distance argument though, that 20 miles or so can mean a lot of extra time on a bad night.

First Charles Town recommendation I've seen!

Quote: ahiromu

As a resident of northern Virginia, I prefer Charles Town. Limits are more reasonable and the distance tends to be more consistent timewise. The Baltimore Washington parkway can make taking 270 to WV the shorter route occasionally.

I can totally believe the distance argument though, that 20 miles or so can mean a lot of extra time on a bad night.

Haven't visited Charles Town in a while...what are the limits these days?

As far as this case goes I watched the news report online from CBS Baltimore. The police officer absolutely lied to the man. There is no ordinance against card counting, only using a device or a computer. He should have allowed himself to be arrested. His lawyer would be looking at a much larger settlement. It was false arrest and false imprisonment all the way.

Quote: Artemis

Shame on Maryland Live!. It did $53.8 million, with all that winnings, so why did the casino backroom Justin, a losing skilled player? Now Justin takes legal action against Maryland Live, see below.
The case# is 02C14190223

Based on my extensive legal knowledge ( well at least on a quick check with Wikipedia ) I think he wants the Prosecutor's Office to do something about his detainment. The legal briefs mention "MANDAMUS JUDICIAL REVIEW". Wiki sez:

"A mandamus is normally issued when an officer or an authority by compulsion of statute is required to perform a duty and that duty, despite demand in writing, has not been performed".

Quote: silversonic2006

Haven't visited Charles Town in a while...what are the limits these days?

I always find a $10 table available, even on weekends, including at least blackjack and craps.

I may be misremembering things, but I think I've seen a $5 craps table on the weekdays.

I live in between Maryland Live, the Horseshoe and Charlestown. I used to go to Live to play $10 blackjack during the week. You had to fight your way on to a table though. You would have thought with the Horseshoe opening you would have seen lower minimums and better offers but it seems just the opposite. They have gone to almost 50% CSM's but it doesnt seem to have detered gamblers.

First thing I noticed at the Horseshoe is how bright it is. It definitely doesn't have a dingy casino feel to it. It has $10 blackjack from shoes all day every day. During the week, you can easily play two spots if you want. During the week and Sunday's it has $5 3 card poker, Ultimate Texas Hold'em and 4 card poker. They have $5 automated roulette and craps. You'll never find any of that at Live. They used to have $2 then $5 video blackjack but that now is gone. It doesnt matter anyways, I'm convinced those machines are rigged. I'd like to get into video poker but all casino's around have terrible pay tables. They are all I would guess 95-97% payouts. I think I once saw an 8/6 jacks or better at Rocky Gap. There's really no reason to go anywhere else around.

Charlestown is a dump of a casino. It's always smoky there. That's not really enough to deter me but it's a contributing factor. The only thing better is that they have a drink machine. Might not sound like a big deal but I like that. The place is always busy though. I guess they still have a lot of Asian's going there from Northern Virginia. They do have a few other games like Spanish 21 and High Card Flush. The blackjack rules are absolutely terrible though. If you like roulette, this is the place to go because you only lose half your bet if a green comes up. I don't really understand the minimums. I went on a Saturday once and they still had a $10 blackjack table. Then I went during the week twice and they have $15 minimums. Last time, I wanted to play Texas Hold'em bonus but it was $10 so I played Heads Up Hold'em. When I lost all my money there, I was going to leave and the other table was back at $5. I dont really play for comps but last time I was there I checked and I had like 5 cents on there. What's even the point? At Live and the Horseshoe it seems to be about $1 an hour, which I think is fair. The best casino around is Delaware Park, but that is almost 2 hours from me. Well that's my review of things.

Quote: Sandybestdog

They have $5 automated roulette and craps.

Pardon the ignorance, but what do you mean by automated craps? Is it a slot machine? Who is the manufacturer?

Quote: PartialInfo

Pardon the ignorance, but what do you mean by automated craps? Is it a slot machine? Who is the manufacturer?

Do a web search for "organic craps"

Quote: PartialInfo

Pardon the ignorance, but what do you mean by automated craps? Is it a slot machine? Who is the manufacturer?

They are by Interblock. I don't know anything about craps so I can't tell you anything about it but it's a physical machine that rolls the dice, not a random number generator. The roulette is standard rules. I will say that I have noticed a certain pattern with the automated roulette machine but I haven't quite figured out how to capitalize on it. Also awhile ago they were having this promotion where if you earned 75 tier credits a day on slots, they would give you $10 in free slot play three days later. The desk said those games didn't qualify but they do. They give you two players cards there so sometimes I would put $100 in two different machines and play baccarat. One on banker, the other player. Last time I was there though, the baccarat and blackjack games were not there anymore. Just for fun sometimes I like to put $10 in a video poker machine, so I would use the free slot play for that. Not sure if that promo is still going on.

So Horseshoe recently removed a good chunk of their Interblock automated games and replaced them with more blackjack tables. I read that Horseshoe and Live recently were approved to remove some slots and replace them with table games. They said that customers wanted more tables with low minimums. I suspect that even though the automated roulette and blackjack seems like a legit alternative to the higher minimum table games, legally they were considered slots, therefore were taxed at the much higher rate. Just a guess though. Also downstairs a good chunk of the slots were removed and replaced with more blackjack tables. Sounds good, so what's the catch? Oh right, all of the blackjack tables downstairs (which encompasses all of the $10 tables) have replaced their hand dealt shoes with continuous shufflers. So I won't be playing much anymore. I don't even vary my bets with the count. That's not how blackjack is played. I told the dealer that the other day and she said they hate them and to complain to management. I held up my two red chips and said yea I'm real high roller here, they're gonna care about me!

FWIW, I was walking around Md Live the other day and noticed that they seem to have removed and replaced the craps tables...more BJ tables. There used to 6 craps tables, right?

Quote: Sandybestdog

So Horseshoe recently removed a good chunk of their Interblock automated games and replaced them with more blackjack tables. I read that Horseshoe and Live recently were approved to remove some slots and replace them with table games. They said that customers wanted more tables with low minimums. I suspect that even though the automated roulette and blackjack seems like a legit alternative to the higher minimum table games, legally they were considered slots, therefore were taxed at the much higher rate. Just a guess though. Also downstairs a good chunk of the slots were removed and replaced with more blackjack tables. Sounds good, so what's the catch? Oh right, all of the blackjack tables downstairs (which encompasses all of the $10 tables) have replaced their hand dealt shoes with continuous shufflers. So I won't be playing much anymore. I don't even vary my bets with the count. That's not how blackjack is played. I told the dealer that the other day and she said they hate them and to complain to management. I held up my two red chips and said yea I'm real high roller here, they're gonna care about me!

You are correct, that both MD Live and the Horseshoe, have, or are in the process of removing electronic games (i.e. slots) and replacing them with tables. Mostly because the state of MD taxes the winnings of the casino at around 1/2 as much for table game win as slots. Yes those Interblock electronic roulette, bj, craps are technically considered machines. For tax purposes anyway. So they are trying to boost table revenue. Last time I was at Horseshoe the $10 pit downstairs, was full in the middle of the afternoon on a Thursday. Never seen that before. Then I had a dealer tell me that they are going to roll out $5 bj during the week daytime. So we will see. And both MD Live and Horseshoe seem to all most exclusively use ASM on their low limit games.