Entry Fee for PA casino?

Sorry if this has been posted here before.

Just was at a Christmas Eve family gathering and reletives from the other side of the family and other side of the state were telling me that at one of the Eastern PA casinos (Sugarland?) you have to pay $60 per 3 months to enter, though you had the choice of buying a $60 dinner to meet the fee. I was amazed because while I have heard of casinos charging an entry fee (eg: Monte Carlo in Monaco and Circus Circus when it first opened) but could not believe that PA allows this or that the market accepts it.

Is there more to it than this?

deleted

Yes, it's valley forge. You can also pay $10/day to enter, and receive a $10 gift certificate (technically, i suppose you buy the $10 certificate, and receive free admission in recognition of your "purchase").

edit: I used this casino as an example in the comp value discussion last week in part because of this fee. The low-end food prices are laughably high, so that it's virtually impossible to spend less than $10 on food (and, thus, get "free" admission)

edit 2: Valley Forge has one of the two limited mini-casino licenses in PA. It's at the convention center, and is theoretically limited to conference goers and hotel guests. Total exclusivity isn't allowed, so this mechanism for allowing public access was designed.

Quote: rdw4potus

edit 2: Valley Forge has one of the two limited mini-casino licenses in PA. It's at the convention center, and is theoretically limited to conference goers and hotel guests. Total exclusivity isn't allowed, so this mechanism for allowing public access was designed.

Yeah, they did say it was Vallet Forge. How did I forget about someone telling me about a trip to Valley Forge on Christmas Eve?

Anyways, thanks. And what is the other one? The yet-to-be-built Nemacolin location or something else?

So sad PA did its casino rollout so well but still screwed something up. But they did say the VF casino was jammed and that people were dressed super-well for those who miss the day when shorts and a t-shirt were no-nos in a casino. If there were a dress code and a decent Rat Pack Review I'd consider it.

Parx, Sugerhouse and Harrahs Philadlephia (Chester) are all within a 1/2 hour from Valley Forge and all are larger casinos. The other license is still out there. Seven Springs near Altoona was awarded it, but dropped plans a few years ago. Valley Forge has had revenue in the 8-10 Million a month range, which is actually not bad for the size and amount of competition.

I don't have any personal experience with any PA casinos, as I've never even been to the state, but one possible reason is to keep a certain undesirable element out. I know where I work there is a certain amount of concern about people coming in just to panhandle the guests and mooch free soft drinks/coffee while avoiding weather that is uncomfortable to sleep in at this time of the year.

I'm sure there are some of you that will disagree with such polices, and I can understand that, but I think I like the alternative less.

Quote: AZDuffman

Sorry if this has been posted here before.

Just was at a Christmas Eve family gathering and reletives from the other side of the family and other side of the state were telling me that at one of the Eastern PA casinos (Sugarland?) you have to pay $60 per 3 months to enter, though you had the choice of buying a $60 dinner to meet the fee. I was amazed because while I have heard of casinos charging an entry fee (eg: Monte Carlo in Monaco and Circus Circus when it first opened) but could not believe that PA allows this or that the market accepts it.

Is there more to it than this?

Even though Valley Forge has a special limited license 600 slots and 50 table games, Sugarhouse is not significantly larger (1600 slots and 55 table games). Sugarhouse makes the most money per slot machine (by a small margin), and the most money per table (by a huge margin) for any casino in Pennsylvania. Sugarhouse has the downtown location in Philadelphia.

Nearly every casino license awarded in Pennsylvania has legal action taken against the decision. But Valley Forge was particularly nasty. The intent of the limited licenses was supposed to bring wealthy tourists into the state. The legislatures envisioned them going to a high end resort (like Nemocolin, which won the second mini-license). Nemocolin brings in the wealthy from several surrounding states.

Valley Forge Convention Center is middle level resort that attracts as many visitors from Pennsylvania as from other states. Since it is near a heavily populated area, and they were limited to 600 slot machines, they wanted to discourage the most casual visitors. The traditional way to do that is to have the slot machines not accept dollar bills, and to not have penny slots, and skew most machines to dollar minimums. But the entrance fee also helps keep the casino floor less crowded.

Harrah's casino in Chester is the casino in the Philadelphia area that caters to low rollers. But some people steer clear because Chester has such a high rate of violent crime.

Quote: AZDuffman

.... that at one of the Eastern PA casinos (Sugarland?) you have to pay $60 per 3 months to enter... is there more to it than this?

I was fascinated by this concept of charging you a fee to get into this casino. I think some of the other PA casinos charge a fee as well? Any intel please? If the negative EV was bad enough, you have to pay the house to lose money!!!! My god, how desperate do you have to be to gamble? You're down right after you walk through the door.

And it's not like you get comps for your fee. You pretty much get nothing but the privilege of walking in to take a piss. Why would you play there?

Side note: can anyone comment on the racial demographics at casinos in PA that charge a walk-in fee?

I think I've been to all of the PA casinos that are open except the one in Erie, and the one at Valley Forge is the only one that charged a fee. I used the coupon for that amount to buy a fast-food supper, and just played craps long enough to pick up my souvenir chip. There was nothing about the demographics that caught my attention. It was a profitable visit for me, even considering the fee, so maybe I wasn't paying attention to anything else.

I thought the most significant thing about the fee was the long, slow line through which you had to wind in order to pay the fee. They were trying to sell everyone a bunch of upgrades. I think they could have made a lot more money just passing out flyers about the upgrades and sending everyone to the tables half an hour or so faster -- make your money off the gamblers' losses, not by selling them tickets.

Hi Doc,

What's the 411 on Sparx and Sugarland? I was tempted to make a visit, but want to know if its worth the trip.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

What's the 411 on Sparx and Sugarland?

First of all, I assume that either you are revealing your sense of humor or that you just mean Parx in Bensalem and Sugar House in Philadelphia. Sugarland is the country music band with Jennifer Nettles and Christian Bush. (I used to enjoy watching each of them play in their previous groups, before they hit the really big time.)

Perhaps you are aware that I am a chip collector. Many casinos I have just visited for a blink of an eye, including Parx and Sugar House. I was making the rounds of eastern PA in late August 2011, trying to evade Hurricane Irene, and I didn't spend much time at all in either casino. I played low-limit craps in both places and lost money in both. I don't remember any details about special features of the games there, but at mid-day on a Friday they were offering low-enough lower limits that didn't scare me off.

I liked a few things about Sugar House, including the conversion of the industrial facility. My wife and I had lunch in the Refinery restaurant, just off the casino floor, looking out onto the Delaware River at the remnants of the piers where I assume that either raw product was brought in or finished product shipped out. I liked that they have the large windows for illumination of both the restaurant and the gaming area -- not a common sight for a casino. I didn't really care for the available parking, but I understand the problem with accommodating throngs of tourists in such a downtown, waterfront location.

I caught a bit of traffic getting from Sugar House to Parx, and I don't know how commonly that is a problem. The traffic was heavy on both the interstates and the connecting link, which has the interesting and possibly confusing name of "Street Road."

Sorry I can't tell you more, but I really didn't have a casino review in mind while I was visiting.

Quote: Doc

Sorry I can't tell you more, but I really didn't have a casino review in mind while I was visiting.

Parx - Sells themselves on being "Vegas Style." It's large and upscale, to be sure. Also spread across two buildings - one for the casino proper, one which is the track facility but also has gambling. Limits (both min and max) are lower than the property's quality would suggest. Pai Gow Poker was $10/$500 when I was there most recently (Valley Forge's game is a static $25/$3000 for comparison). The atmosphere at Parx is quite Vegas-style - half the people think they're having a party, and half the people would rather not be in the same room as the party:-) One of my favorite signs is at Parx. In the revolving door to the main casino, there's a "no soccer" sign with a kid kicking a ball and the classic circle and slash. Who brings a ball into a casino?

SugarHouse - Nice place, right on the edge of downtown, right off of I-76. I'm not sure how they keep vagrants out, but there's not a hint of trouble on the property. Limits are high ($25bj, $15 craps, $10 UTH/THB - I don't actually remember which they have installed). It's a nice crowd - young & happy, but not too obnoxious. I'm a big fan of the music. The whole playlist is either NJ/Philadelphia-area artists or songs about Philly. i thought that was a nice touch.

I think I've settled into Valley Forge being my "home" casino, but that's almost all because of proximity and location. If SugarHouse and Parx weren't so far away, I'd go to them instead. Sugarhouse is also right on the interstate right downtown, so it's almost always tough to get to.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I don't have any personal experience with any PA casinos, as I've never even been to the state, but one possible reason is to keep a certain undesirable element out. I know where I work there is a certain amount of concern about people coming in just to panhandle the guests and mooch free soft drinks/coffee while avoiding weather that is uncomfortable to sleep in at this time of the year.

I'm sure there are some of you that will disagree with such polices, and I can understand that, but I think I like the alternative less.

It is because Valley Forge was awarded a Resort license and no other reason.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

Side note: can anyone comment on the racial demographics at casinos in PA that charge a walk-in fee?

The only one with a casino fee is Valley Forge casino which is a "resort" casino. The state government established these licenses for casinos that were primarily catering to overnight visitors from out of state. They are limited to 600 slots and I think 50 table games.

The fantasy example was the casino at the elegant Greenbrier Estate in West Virginia where the state voted in a casino. The aging Valley Forge convention center with 500 hotel rooms built in the 1970's was not what most people envisioned, but it made it easier to charge a fee. Perhaps the fee is waived if you are a guest.

There is not a huge difference between the mini-casino and the smallest of the regular racinos in Erie PA. But Valley Forge by law cannot get any bigger.
Presque Isle in Erie PA has 53 table games made $1.0 million last month, 2,031 slots made $9.95 million
Valley Forge mini casino 50 table games made $2.6 million last month, 600 slots made $4.45 million

Valley Forge casino would probably be overwhelmed if they had more than a thousand people at one time.

Demographically the nearest urban area (Norristown) is fairly racially mixed (Keep in mind the Asian population in Pennsylvania is very low)
Black persons 35.9%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin 28.3%
White persons not Hispanic 31.6%

But outside of the borough most of the county population is White. You are about 25 miles from Center City Philadelphia

The biggest corruption I ever learned about PA casinos was politicians are allowed to own up to 1% of these casinos. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they got the steal of a lifetime investing in them or retired before they actually held their piece, therefore diverting the law.

There was a boat in St. Louis that is now shuttered that used to charge $2 to board.

The panhandling and free drinks problem extends outside of PA. The Rhythm City casino in Davenport, Iowa has a similar problem. Being near downtown and until last year, on a major highway, transients would come on board quite often for the free coffee and hot cocoa and never spend a dime.

Quote: PGBuster

There was a boat in St. Louis that is now shuttered that used to charge $2 to board.

The panhandling and free drinks problem extends outside of PA. The Rhythm City casino in Davenport, Iowa has a similar problem. Being near downtown and until last year, on a major highway, transients would come on board quite often for the free coffee and hot cocoa and never spend a dime.

Panhandling can kill a place. I walked in Rivers very early one morning mainly to check a promotion and kill some time for some reason. Woman asks me for money. I tell her no then tell security about it. Security guard actually asked me to find and bring her to him!

I was amazed. I told him I was telling him because I told him I didn't have the time then walked away. Amazing.

I think early shift is when break-in guards work as well as break-in dealers.

Quote: pacomartin

Presque Isle in Erie PA has 53 table games made $1.0 million last month, 2,031 slots made $9.95 million

That startling figure says quite a bit about the makeup of that market and its gambling option of choice.

Quote: SanchoPanza

That startling figure says quite a bit about the makeup of that market and its gambling option of choice.

So the tables average about $20,000 and the slots $5,000. Now factor in expenses, particularly man hours for each. All thing considered floor space might be close to equal, so ac/ lighting/custodial expenses even out. But 4 slots versus 1 BJ table staffed
and peripheral support for 30 days sure reduces that $20,000.

I believe the tax rates are tilted in PA, but on a level playing field tax wise, slots rule.