Fleaswatter
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:19:59 AM permalink
The company I work for observes the following holidays: New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day. All full time employees, depending upon their position, will either receive "holiday pay" or an extra day off.

In addition to these holidays, the company observes 3 other holidays but an employee will only receive a holiday benefit (holiday pay or an extra day off) is they are a member of a certain race. For example, let's say Chinese New Year was one of the "additional" holidays, only if you were Chinese would you receive holiday benefits for that day, all of the other employees would receive nothing.

Do you think that this is right? Legal?
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Ayecarumba
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:26:39 AM permalink
That doesn't sound legal nor fair. Are "class excluded" employees given their pick of three other days to take off w/pay?

What industry is this, and what are the three "recognized" other days?
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MathExtremist
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:32:29 AM permalink
I'd bet that your company's policy actually says "if you choose to observe Chinese New Year, you may use one of your three floating holidays". Floating holidays are there to provide flexibility to minority religions or cultures whose holidays don't coincide with the standard list -- for example, allowing Jews to observe Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur without special dispensation or making a tradeoff like working on Christmas when the office is otherwise closed. Observing the Chinese New Year is another example. Usually floating holidays are just another way of saying "here are 3 PTO days, use them as you wish." I'd be shocked if your company actually had codified policies that provided for discriminatory pay (or paid time off) based on race or religion.
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Fleaswatter
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:39:07 AM permalink
No, these are not any type of floating holidays. These are three additional holidays that only members of a certain race can receive benefits. And yes, this policy is actually written in our employee handbook this way.
new motto for the left: “I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was,” (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
Fleaswatter
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:41:16 AM permalink
In reply to Ayecarumba: No, "class excluded" employees are not given their pick of three other days to take off w/pay.

At this time I do not want to list either the holidays or the company I work for.
new motto for the left: “I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was,” (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
Ayecarumba
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:49:13 AM permalink
Quote: Fleaswatter

In reply to Ayecarumba: No, "class excluded" employees are not given their pick of three other days to take off w/pay.

At this time I do not want to list either the holidays or the company I work for.



Then it sounds like the company is unfairly discriminating. You may have grounds for a class action suit if you are part of the "excluded class".

While you don't need to name the specific company, what is the general industry? Hospitality, Manufacturing, etc? I suspect there is some reason why the company would put in such a clearly unfair policy. It is unusual for it not to have been challenged if it has been in place for some time.
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boymimbo
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September 27th, 2011 at 10:57:30 AM permalink
Agreed that this is grounds for a very good lawsuit.

Most progressive companies will allow for the minimum number of statutory holidays and give floaters for fairness. Here in Canada, it's New Year's Day, Family Day, Good Friday, Victoria Day, Canada Day, Civic Holiday, Labor Day, Thanksiving, Christmas, and Boxing Day. We also get 2 "company days" to get us to 12 statutory holidays. These days accrue through the year and we're welcome to take whatever 2 days off we want. That's because Quebec has 12 statutory holidays and it would be unfair for a employee based in Ontario to not get the same number of statutory holidays.

This policy does not exist for our US counterpart. They get 8 stat holidays a year and must take religious observances as vacation pay.
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buzzpaff
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September 27th, 2011 at 11:40:07 AM permalink
I worked for AT&T and in the 70's and 80's. Every black guy in the building would call in sick on MLK's birthday. I was the shop steward, and if none of them got paid, I would have known !
ncfatcat
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September 27th, 2011 at 11:51:26 AM permalink
I read somewhere that at the end of the Roman world rule that Romans enjoyed arounf 150 religious holidays a year. That and veterans benefits did them in.
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Ayecarumba
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September 27th, 2011 at 12:56:02 PM permalink
I wonder if the Native American casinos can provide extra benefits (like a tribe holiday, if there are such things) to employees who are also members of the tribe, without providing the same for non-tribe member employees? The workings on the tribal properties could be different, in a sense not governed by state or federal laws.

Benefits can depend on job classification (e.g., Exempt from OT vs. Hourly wage). Perhaps this is the reason for the difference, as opposed to race/religion. I don't know if tribe membership can be considered a "job classification" though. Seems pretty out there.
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buzzpaff
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September 27th, 2011 at 1:52:33 PM permalink
I used to get a discount because Mom and Dad were in the iron and steel business.
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Fleaswatter
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September 27th, 2011 at 2:09:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba



Benefits can depend on job classification (e.g., Exempt from OT vs. Hourly wage). Perhaps this is the reason for the difference, as opposed to race/religion.



Not in this case, the additional holiday benefits are based entirely upon race.
new motto for the left: “I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was,” (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
kp
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September 27th, 2011 at 2:26:46 PM permalink
Look to see which race gets the best benefits and file a change of race.
SOOPOO
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September 27th, 2011 at 3:06:46 PM permalink
Quote: Fleaswatter

Not in this case, the additional holiday benefits are based entirely upon race.



Always remembering this is the anonymous internet, I find it hard (impossible?) to believe that such a policy is codified in any 'handbook' that is given to employees of a corporation/company. Until you show proof of such I would believe that you are making this up, or at least misinterpretting the written words. I just can't see---Blacks get off MLK day, Hispanics get off cinco de Mayo, Eskimos get off Nunavut day, etc....
Face
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September 27th, 2011 at 3:20:45 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I wonder if the Native American casinos can provide extra benefits (like a tribe holiday, if there are such things) to employees who are also members of the tribe, without providing the same for non-tribe member employees? The workings on the tribal properties could be different, in a sense not governed by state or federal laws.

Benefits can depend on job classification (e.g., Exempt from OT vs. Hourly wage). Perhaps this is the reason for the difference, as opposed to race/religion. I don't know if tribe membership can be considered a "job classification" though. Seems pretty out there.



I work for a tribe and there are "Native Holidays" (State and Federal Indian Day). My position is funny in that if we are not present the casino cannot be legally operated, so we are given 1 day of paid holiday per month to be used whenever (sometimes up to 3 days depending on when Thankgiving/Xmas fall). For admin employee's (the nine to fivers) they get these "Native Holidays" off same as if it was Labor Day, Memeorial Day, ect.

The only thing kind of inline with the OP is for enrolled Senecas of the Longhouse Faith. These people and these people only are granted religious leave for 10 day and 1 year feast (honoring the dead), Longhouse congregations, and other cultural events like Sundance. For those deeply involved, it amounts to 2-3 extra weeks off p/year. In this case, I believe the State has no say (sovereignty) and it is protected by the Fed through treaty. (I could be wrong, I never cared enough to challenge it) Of course, things on the rez are often quite different then the US, so this may not be apples-apples with the OP.
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Fleaswatter
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September 27th, 2011 at 3:23:11 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Always remembering this is the anonymous internet, I find it hard (impossible?) to believe that such a policy is codified in any 'handbook' that is given to employees of a corporation/company. Until you show proof of such I would believe that you are making this up, or at least misinterpretting the written words. I just can't see---Blacks get off MLK day, Hispanics get off cinco de Mayo, Eskimos get off Nunavut day, etc....



Yes this is the anonymous internet but I did not make this up and I am not misinterpretting the written words. Send me your address and I will send you copies of the pages where it is written.
new motto for the left: “I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was,” (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
Ayecarumba
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September 27th, 2011 at 3:49:09 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I work for a tribe and there are "Native Holidays" (State and Federal Indian Day). My position is funny in that if we are not present the casino cannot be legally operated, so we are given 1 day of paid holiday per month to be used whenever (sometimes up to 3 days depending on when Thankgiving/Xmas fall). For admin employee's (the nine to fivers) they get these "Native Holidays" off same as if it was Labor Day, Memeorial Day, ect.

The only thing kind of inline with the OP is for enrolled Senecas of the Longhouse Faith. These people and these people only are granted religious leave for 10 day and 1 year feast (honoring the dead), Longhouse congregations, and other cultural events like Sundance. For those deeply involved, it amounts to 2-3 extra weeks off p/year. In this case, I believe the State has no say (sovereignty) and it is protected by the Fed through treaty. (I could be wrong, I never cared enough to challenge it) Of course, things on the rez are often quite different then the US, so this may not be apples-apples with the OP.



Thanks Face. I appreciate your insights. Do you know if the Longhouse Faith Seneca get all that time as PTO, or do they need to use accrued vacation? Also, are the non-Seneca employees given equivalent comp time?

Does anyone know what happens with employees of companies that are owned and operated by foreign corporations, or U.S. companies with operations overseas? Do the American employees of Wynn who work in Macau, get the U.S. Thanksgiving Thursday/Friday off? Do U.S. citizens who work for U.S. companies with offices in China get the Lunar New Year's as paid time off? If so, in these situations, I could see national origin playing a role in who gets PTO. However, to not compensate other employees doing the same job would be really unfair; so much so, that I would be really surprised if that is actually the case.
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Ayecarumba
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September 27th, 2011 at 3:49:58 PM permalink
Quote: Fleaswatter

Yes this is the anonymous internet but I did not make this up and I am not misinterpretting the written words. Send me your address and I will send you copies of the pages where it is written.



I'd like to see it Feaswatter. Can you attach it to a PM?
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buzzpaff
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September 27th, 2011 at 4:18:40 PM permalink
However, to not compensate other employees doing the same job would be really unfair; so much so, that I would be really surprised if that is actually the case.

Not me. White man has been doing it for decades. People have been fired for letting another employes see their pay stub.
This unfairness exist even in union shops. Some of the biggest have a two tier schedule for workers doing the same job.
It's not personal, just business.
AZDuffman
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September 27th, 2011 at 4:30:50 PM permalink
Quote: Fleaswatter

The company I work for observes the following holidays: New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day. All full time employees, depending upon their position, will either receive "holiday pay" or an extra day off.

In addition to these holidays, the company observes 3 other holidays but an employee will only receive a holiday benefit (holiday pay or an extra day off) is they are a member of a certain race. For example, let's say Chinese New Year was one of the "additional" holidays, only if you were Chinese would you receive holiday benefits for that day, all of the other employees would receive nothing.

Do you think that this is right? Legal?



I would say without a doubt this is totally illegal, in the USA anyways. I agree with the other poster, sounds like it actually gives "floating" holidays.

I used to work at a bank where MLK was a holiday but back-office jobs were open and you either got a different day off if you came in or got extra pay, I forget which. I used it one year to fly back east for a family-Christmas celebration as my brother was deployed and we both missed the real one. Otherwise and at other places that had the same policy, MLK was a holiday where the blacks took that day off and white folks came in for the extra money or to save the day for a day they more preferred. I always get POed that the place offered a day off for that day but George Washington's B-Day was nearly forgotten but I digress.

Expect to see more of this. We are becoming more and more divided as a nation. The next holiday being agitated for is one honoring Caesar Chavez. My guess is that eventually you will get the "big 6" holidays and a floater so you can honor whoever you like by staying home that day.
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Face
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September 27th, 2011 at 4:31:31 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Thanks Face. I appreciate your insights. Do you know if the Longhouse Faith Seneca get all that time as PTO, or do they need to use accrued vacation? Also, are the non-Seneca employees given equivalent comp time?



It is neither PTO nor vacation. All employees get a certain amount of PTO and vacay time dependant on years you've been with the department. "Religious" time is seperate, in the same way bereavement is seperate. (If someone dies, you get paid time off without having to use "your" time.) And no, there is no compensation for either non-Senecas, nor Senecas who are not of that faith.
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Ayecarumba
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September 27th, 2011 at 5:40:57 PM permalink
Quote: Face

It is neither PTO nor vacation. All employees get a certain amount of PTO and vacay time dependant on years you've been with the department. "Religious" time is seperate, in the same way bereavement is seperate. (If someone dies, you get paid time off without having to use "your" time.) And no, there is no compensation for either non-Senecas, nor Senecas who are not of that faith.



Thanks Face. Wow. I wonder if folks join the Longhouse just for the PTO... There's not a requirement to be swung around a pole by hooks through your back, is there? Also, I wonder if employees of other faiths could use the "Religion" time if they wanted to (Eid-al-Fitr, Succoth, Diwali, etc.) Some festivals run for a month at a time.
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buzzpaff
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September 27th, 2011 at 5:46:39 PM permalink
" I would say without a doubt this is totally illegal, in the USA anyways. "

While tribal nations do not enjoy direct access to U.S. courts to bring cases against states, as sovereigns they do enjoy immunity against many lawsuits,[9] unless a plaintiff is granted a waiver by the tribe or by congressional abrogation.[10] The sovereignty extends to tribal enterprises[11] and tribal casinos or gaming commissions.[12] The Indian Civil Rights Act does not allow actions against an Indian tribe in federal court for deprivation of substantive rights, except for habeas corpus proceedings.[9]
pacomartin
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September 27th, 2011 at 6:13:48 PM permalink
Quote: Fleaswatter

The company I work for observes the following holidays: New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day. All full time employees, depending upon their position, will either receive "holiday pay" or an extra day off.

In addition to these holidays, the company observes 3 other holidays but an employee will only receive a holiday benefit (holiday pay or an extra day off) is they are a member of a certain race. For example, let's say Chinese New Year was one of the "additional" holidays, only if you were Chinese would you receive holiday benefits for that day, all of the other employees would receive nothing.

Do you think that this is right? Legal?



There are ten Federal Holidays. The Big 6 and the Little 4. Many companies try to follow the federal government and keep the big 6, but let some leeway in shifting around the other four.

Big 6
1-Jan: New Year's Day
Last Monday of May: Memorial Day
4-Jul: Independence Day
First Monday in September: Labor Day
Fourth Thursday in November: Thanksgiving Day
25-Dec: Christmas

Little 4
Second Monday in October: Columbus Day
Third Monday in January: Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
Third Monday in February: Presidents' Day, Washington's Birthday
11-Nov: Veteran's Day

If your company gives the Big 6 plus three more dependent on racial or ethnic identity, then as an American Citizen you should be entitled to claim three of the four federal holidays regardless of your ethnicity.

I doubt that it is illegal to offer people the choice of Yom Kippur, Easter or Chinese New Year's based on self defined ethnic idenitity, but I would think it is illegal if you couldn't claim Columbus Day, President's Day, and Veteran's Day.
Face
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September 27th, 2011 at 7:17:55 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Thanks Face. Wow. I wonder if folks join the Longhouse just for the PTO... There's not a requirement to be swung around a pole by hooks through your back, is there? Also, I wonder if employees of other faiths could use the "Religion" time if they wanted to (Eid-al-Fitr, Succoth, Diwali, etc.) Some festivals run for a month at a time.



Hehe, no. All that hook and hang stuff is purely voluntary ;). One of my good friends does that, usually gets about 2 weeks off to attend, but you'd never see me dangling up there. I like time off and all, but... just no.

And no, Longhouse is the only faith allowed by the Nation for religious leave. Any other faiths, including other American Indian cultures, are not. They follow paco's Big 6 examples, but not Columbus Day (for obvious reasons) or MLK Day, and "President's Day" falls on the birthday of the Nation's president currently in office, rather than Washington.
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Toes14
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September 27th, 2011 at 8:06:11 PM permalink
Quote: Fleaswatter

No, these are not any type of floating holidays. These are three additional holidays that only members of a certain race can receive benefits. And yes, this policy is actually written in our employee handbook this way.



Total lawsuit waiting to happen!

I wonder how they would handle a non-Chinese employee who was married to a Chinese spouse - would that person also get the day off? What about a non-Chinese employee who was adopted & raised by a Chinese family?

It sounds like possibly a smaller company. If so, one must consider the cost-benefit of raising the issue will possible retribution afterwards. It doesn't make sense to win a small victory only to be fired a few months later for a 'non-related' reason.
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boymimbo
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September 27th, 2011 at 8:34:23 PM permalink
You always get the holidays in the home country that you work for. I work for the Canadian branch of my company but am working in the USA. October 10th is Canadian thanksgiving, a paid holiday. The same day in the US is not. I am working that day, and I get paid for the day and get 11.25 (7.5 x 1.5) hours either paid out or as vacation in lieu.
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