gun show loophole rant
Quote: s2dbakerThis is a bad solution looking for a non-existing problem.
Why? Everyone has ID. Just bring it. What is the problem?
If you have to have a background check and ID to buy a gun why not to vote?
Quote: AZDuffmanI am so glad I am out of that state. Not that PA is a bastion of freedom but compared to NY it is great. We can actually get a carry permit here and we have a natural gas boom whe ny takes away guns and prefers to freeze in the dark.
You should consider relocating.
I missed this (a few things, actually) among the voter stuff, glad it got cleaned out.
I’ve considered it, but I have it firmly placed as “Plan Z”. See, I think it would be… maybe “cowardly” isn’t the right word, but it just wouldn’t be right. My family, my friends, my hockey, my fishing, everything I love, everything I am is WNY. Why should I and indeed the vast majority of upstate be pressured / forced to leave because of some bullshit garbage radiating from the cancer that is downstate? Even that boggles me – all of this is from there, yet they already have the authoritarianism they so love to wallow in. Why extend your arm of bullshit where it’s not wanted? Maybe we need our own secession movement…
But no. Right now, leaving isn’t an option. Leaving is when all options have failed, and should they fail, leaving is a very easy choice. You know where I work; you can practically see PA from the rooftop. But I’m not abandoning my fellow gunners, my friends, my family, or myself because of idiocy. Leaving does nothing; it’s just one less person they have to fight. I’ll not go down so easily. I’m here to fight, and I will fight until there's no fight left.
Quote: boymimbo
In Michigan, home of the car, more people die from guns then from vehicle deaths, or from voter fraud.
Thats because MI, where I live, is also home to a huge
number of a certain minority group. Ever been to Detroit
or Flint? I drove thru Flint a few years ago and on some
streets every house had iron bars on the windows and
doors, like a prison would. Even the small basement windows
had bars. Every house. Just like this:
Quote: boymimboSuccess from gun related suicide attempts 95% - other forms of suicide attempts - 5%.
Implying that these two attempts are of equal seriousness by the suicidal person.
Getting rid of guns eliminates 95% of suicides. Just look at Japan and the UK. They really solved that suicide problem.
Suicides are a non-starter; even the most resrictive gun law proposed does nothing, unless giving some an extra 3 minutes to think because of the required background check counts as "something".
Quote: AZDuffmanIf you have to have a background check and ID to buy a gun why not to vote?
I don't think "in for a penny in for a pound" is the correct stance where infringement of rights is concerned, where id and background checks to buy a gun squarely falls in my book.
For the gangbangin’ members here, you can get mad street cred by committing a crime with a weapon or taking a gun that’s already too hot to use, and actually sell it to the cops. Not only do you get mad street cred, but you can actually use the 5-0 to get rid of the weapon for you. It’s the perfect crime! It’s genius! If that wasn’t good enough, you actually make the cops criminals themselves, since the weapons are being bought without a background check. Win-win-win!
Inb4 Mayor Byron Brown declares buyback “saved lives”
Quote: FaceAgain, here we have another issue being labeled as a "gun problem" and not a "mental health problem".
Suicides are a non-starter; even the most resrictive gun law proposed does nothing, unless giving some an extra 3 minutes to think because of the required background check counts as "something".
Tell that to the parents in Newtown. Add the stupidity of the mother to leave guns in the room of a not-so-mentally together kid and you have a disaster, and that's at the most extreme end. In Canada, that can't happen. Irresponsibility with weapons.
But tell that to the parents of kids who blow their head off. Plenty of studies show that teens who have access to guns (in the home) have a much higher suicide rate because they are instantly successful. Teenagers are the most impulsive people around and are the most susceptible to this end to their life. 90% of teenagers who ended their lives via suicide had a mental disorder. So, keeping guns away from teenagers with a mental problem means that it's far more likely that they'll make it through their teenage years without blowing their brains out, because, well, they can't, and other methods take planning to be successful.
18,735 total suicide deaths by firearm in 2009, which was just over 1/2 all suicides. According to CDC stats, 85% of suicide attempts are successful with a firearm. The next "succcessful" -- suffocation, with a success rate of 67%. Falls are just over 30%, while other methods are under 10%. So, yeah, if you are suicidal, a firearm pretty much guarantees success.
And geez, Face, if someone you knew had suicidal tendencies and had access to a gun, wouldn't the FIRST thing you would do is suggest that you kept the gun at your place for awhile until he could get some help. Or would your attitude be, let's just let him kill himself... he wants to die... have at it.
Quote: Beethoven9thFace, after reading all of your posts about NY, I thank god that I don't live there. Nevada is becoming more and more liberal as well, but at least it's livable here. (For now, at least!)
I've lived here all my life, so even things most would consider madness, ie 10 rd limits, 2yr wait for conceal carry, were always normal to me. To have me react as I have, I think, shows how very, very messed up it’s become.
It’s just so bizarre. I mean, not a one of anyone I know holds these ultra-liberal gun views. I thought maybe it was because of the whole “birds of a feather” thing, but as time goes on, I can’t say that’s the case. The Sheriff of our county hinted he wouldn’t enforce NYSAFE, even if he lost his job. Every county in NY save for one north of Albany and everything SE of the Catskills voted against it. Hell, I just helped my Sheriff buddy make a P2P purchase of an AR w/30rd clip last month. No one in rural NY, which is to say most of it, wants this. We seriously need to go all Virginia up in here and make NYC the 51st state.
Quote: boymimboTell that to the parents in Newtown. Add the stupidity of the mother to leave guns in the room of a not-so-mentally together kid and you have a disaster, and that's at the most extreme end. In Canada, that can't happen. Irresponsibility with weapons.
To be sure Newtown was a tragedy, and suicide’s no better. I lost a dear coach of mine to a self inflicted gunshot to the head. It's just that I can’t see how a law can prevent it, and certainly not any of the ones being bandied about.
Capacity limits? Nope, just takes one. Action type? Nope, could be a muzzle loader, obviously. Background check? Probably not. Maybe if they were already a crim, but, since youth are the most liable to suicide, it isn’t likely.
The only thing I see that might possibly have an effect is something like what you say they have in ONT, that “must be unloaded and locked up deal”. But I asked you already how that’s enforced, and you didn’t answer. Here, we have the 4th Amendment. You ain’t coming in my house without a warrant. I think CAN is similar, so it seems this law can’t really prevent anything, it just encourages citizens to obey because if something does happen, they’ll be in it deep.
Sure, we could enact a similar law here. But, I guarantee the AZDuffman’s of the world ignore it, and rightly so, because he has no need to lock them up (no children). And, he’d likely never get in trouble for it, because of the 4th.
That’s what I meant by a non-starter. It’s just more laws that have no bite, similar to the requirement that I keep my GLOCK under lock and key. I do, but that’s a personal choice because of my son. The 5 days a week he’s not here, it sits either loaded on my nightstand or loaded on my desk, depending on time of day. I leave it out so it's available and I have not a fear in the world I'd ever get "caught". In other words, I and my sons safety is dependent on me and me alone. The Law plays exactly 0 part in any of it, and the reason I don't see how a law can help.
For sure teens at risk should be protected. But in my world, that means the parents get involved, perhaps the guns are taken out of the house at the request of the parent and kept at a friend's / family's house. My family has held guns for this reason before. This is a damn good idea, IMO. But how do you make a law for it?
Yeah, you can't stop suicide from happening if someone REALLY has to do it. But every suicide is a tragedy, really -- someone who needed prefessional help and/or medication their only way "out" was to off themselves. Without a gun, you have a much higher chance of failing your suicide attempt and getting some form of help before you try it again. Schizophrenics have a suicide attempt rate of 50%. So yeah, I would support a law supporting guns being kept out of the households of any diagnosed with a condition with a high correlation with suicide -- schizophrenia being #1 on the list, followed by severe depression. That's just public safety.
You're right though, Face. In your world, you do the right thing. In AZ's, BBVs, Beethoven's, etc's world, they all do the right thing. The problem is that NOT doing the right thing has the risk of catastrophic consequences. And as all of the gun accidents, gun suicides, mass murders, and homocides show, plenty of people don't do the right thing. The reason why plastic bags are not banned from people's homes is because alone, it's not particularly effective as a suicide or homocide device. Neither are knives (the last mass "stabbing" hurt 12 people). Guns are very lethal. Duh.
Now, that doesn't mean that there should be a gun ban. Rather, I support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership (by the way, I also support stronger ID laws for voting too as long as the voters without ID have a very easy and cheap way of getting voter ID). That means gun safety classes, licensing (that expires), registration, and background checks. Many people will see the government getting in the way though these checks as impediments to their constitutional rights. I get that.
But if you truly feel that way, by that logic, you've got to support other constitutional rights too, like the right to vote (contravened by ID laws), the right to free speech, and the fourth amendment (contravened by the Patriot Act). So, if you are going to support contraventions of the Constitution just because it suits your party's politics, then what kind of libertarian are you?? You're fine with the nanny state "protecting" you by contravening the fourth amendment in the name of terrorism? You're fine with the nanny state "protecting the sanctity of the election process" of the 15th, 19th, and 26th Amendment by putting up barriers to voting (actually, there is nothing in the constitution that gives you the right to vote).
Quote: boymimboNow, that doesn't mean that there should be a gun ban. Rather, I support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership (by the way, I also support stronger ID laws for voting too as long as the voters without ID have a very easy and cheap way of getting voter ID). That means gun safety classes, licensing (that expires), registration, and background checks. Many people will see the government getting in the way though these checks as impediments to their constitutional rights. I get that.
The problem with these ideas is that they are a burden only for people who essentially never commit crimes with guns. Like how gun buybacks are phenomenally ineffective because precisely the wrong people are the ones willing to turn in guns.
Your proposed laws are designed to inconvenience typical gun owners and gun culture. As has been proven in your country, registration and licenses do nothing to solve or stop crimes.
You are spending your time thinking about restricting the wrong people. You should be asking yourself how you can deter, punish, and prevent violent criminals from committing violent crimes including those with gun.
That's what one of the guys who helped write it says. Gun owners gain more rights in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E9UMox1WoTw
Quote: treetopbuddyBoynimbo, why are you so obsessed with U.S gun laws? Your Canadian, right?
He was American, but yes, now Canadian. He’s close enough that if he were to go to his local casino and I were to go to work, we could wave to each other from across the river. I can understand his concern as what we do here can affect him (“problem guns” crossing the border). As a culture that is similar enough to be called “same” yet with severely different rules, I think he adds a valuable viewpoint to the convo. We might never hold hands on the subject, but I think we’ve gained some understanding somewhere in these 1,000 posts =)
Quote: rxwineGun rights bill before Congress is a win for gun rights.
That's what one of the guys who helped write it says. Gun owners gain more rights in it.
Cliff notes?
I haven't watched / read anything in the last few days. As soon as the families of Newtown began being paraded around, I became so disgusted I checked out. Forget meaningless exagerations, I wanted to literally slap every of these p.o.s. politicians in their shameless, disgraceful faces.
Quote: boymimbo...boymimbo's argument...
Well boymimbo, you might have a point that our many guns leads to higher gun violence. Seems like a logical statement and you back it up showing that CAN has low ownership and low gun laws. OK, point made. But I don’t see your point as it pertains to this argument. Surely, Americans aren’t giving up their 300mm+ guns, so I’m not sure if you’re just throwing out an opinion or if you’re trying to go somewhere with this.
You say you’re not for a gun ban, and I’ve no reason to doubt that. But the things you’re railing against, basically crime and suicide and their relation to “easy access”, are things I don’t see being helped by anything other than less access, ie less guns a.k.a. “ban lite”. Maybe I’m not picking up what you’re putting down, or maybe based on our different views, we’ll never reach a perfect understanding. I dunno. But let’s check your fixes…
Quote: boymimboThat means gun safety classes,…
I’m all for education and have always strongly urged everyone to get proper training. Just realize, the courses currently mandated in some states for some weapons run ~$100 and are completely worthless for all but the completely clueless. A proper class is going to run near or in excess of $1,000. I had an idea to cheapen it, but it was shot down. How would you make proper training available to the poorest of citizens to the level their rights aren’t infringed?
Quote: boymimbolicensing (that expires),…
I’m unsure of what you mean by this. Licensing is defined as 1. Grant a license to permit the use of something or to allow an activity to take place. 2. Authorize the use, performance, or release (of something). We already have that. See: Second Amendment.
Quote: boymimboregistration,…
Perhaps this is what you meant about licensing. My handguns must be registered. As of right now, it’s a one shot deal of $5 per gun, and to be honest, if not for the 2hr+ round trip drive to the city, it draws little of my ire. This registration ties the gun to me and makes me completely responsible for it, even if stolen and used in a crime (I will be held liable), and remains so until I remove it from my license buy selling it (must be re-registered by buyer) or destroying. It’s not a meritless idea. But again, based on registration’s history, neither I nor any other gunner are going to register jack. Registration always, and I mean always, leads to confiscation. Look how it’s already happened here in NY with the NYSAFE Act. It just won’t happen. Like I said, the politicians need to give if they want. Show some good faith. I already submitted my “law” about registration, and if proposed in this fashion, I’d not be completely against it. But without some good faith gestures and protection of my rights, registration can bugger off.
Quote: boymimbo…and background checks.
Well, looks like we got them now. I’ll meet you here in 10 years and we’ll see how we did =)
Quote: rxwineGun rights bill before Congress is a win for gun rights.
That's what one of the guys who helped write it says. Gun owners gain more rights in it.
Your point? I can just as easily point to liberals Hubert Humphrey and Walter Mondale (who were on the other side of the debate).
Quote: FaceCliff notes?
I haven't watched / read anything in the last few days. As soon as the families of Newtown began being paraded around, I became so disgusted I checked out. Forget meaningless exagerations, I wanted to literally slap every of these p.o.s. politicians in their shameless, disgraceful faces.
The bill marginally increases protections for CCW holders traveling through a banstate with an unloaded and locked gun. This is a worthless thing because there is already a law that protects unloaded transit through a state.
The bill bans the federal government from creating any kind of gun database. This is already illegal.
The bill also allows the purchasing of a handgun from a licensed dealer in a different state. You travel to Arizona and you can buy a handgun there (you can already buy rifles and shotguns). This is useful to a few people and would be a good provision, but it doesn't do much in reality.
This so-called expansion of gun rights is window dressing.
The 'benefits' are joke in comparison to the rights we are surrendering--- private sales at gun shows and via the newspaper or internet. Perhaps the most egregiously stupid part of this bill is that it criminalizes private sales if the item was posted for sale on the internet or in any publication. That means that you can't use the newspaper to sell/trade your guns or to advertise your yard sale where you are selling guns. You can't use one of the hundreds of local gun forums to sell/trade guns. This is an enormous federal restriction, and targets only the people not committing crimes--- as always with this stupid gun legislation streak.
Other types of private sales would be legal, but only through word-of-mouth and physical bulletin boards, and the like. WE MUST STOP THE NEWSPAPER LOOPHOLE.
Quote: bbvk05The bill marginally increases protections for CCW holders traveling through a banstate with an unloaded and locked gun. This is a worthless thing because there is already a law that protects unloaded transit through a state.
The bill bans the federal government from creating any kind of gun database. This is already illegal.
The bill also allows the purchasing of a handgun from a licensed dealer in a different state. You travel to Arizona and you can buy a handgun there (you can already buy rifles and shotguns). This is useful to a few people and would be a good provision, but it doesn't do much in reality.
This so-called expansion of gun rights is window dressing.
The 'benefits' are joke in comparison to the rights we are surrendering--- private sales at gun shows and via the newspaper or internet. Perhaps the most egregiously stupid part of this bill is that it criminals private sales if the item was posted for sale on the internet or any publication. That means that you can't use the newspaper to sell/trade your guns. You can't use one of the hundreds of local gun forums to sell/trade guns. This is an enormous federal restriction, and targets only the people not committing crimes--- as always with this stupid gun legislation streak.
Other types of private sales would be legal, but only through word-of-mouth and physical bulletin boards, and the like. WE MUST STOP THE NEWSPAPER LOOPHOLE.
Thanks, bbvk05. That's pretty much what I expected when I heard "it's actually pro-gun". My $0.02…
You’re right, there are already safe transport laws, even here in the People’s Republic. I wonder to what level they are now? For instance, you can transport an unloaded, locked up weapon through our state, but if you were to, say, stop at a hotel, you’re now a criminal. I know of a few states, NJ comes to mind, where this is also the case. Has that changed?
No database? Pfft. Next…
I wasn’t aware that buying a pistol out of state was illegal in the first place. I assumed it would be like it is currently when buying out of county – agree to buy, pay, get a receipt from FFL, take receipt to clerk, register, return with registration to FFL, obtain gun. So now I can buy from PA? Umm…huzzah?
So… now you can’t go to Gunbroker, etc at all? Not even a way to get a NICS check, then do it? No Craig’s, no Pennysaver? Lol that’s some bullshit all right. So, I can go to my town square or campus bulletin board, advertise a Want To Buy / Want To Sell, but I can’t “publish” it? /sigh whatever. Follow up questions – Does this include ammo? Accessories? Parts? Or is it just complete, operational firearms? If you say "parts and ammo, too", I've a long night of ranting ahead of me =/
Quote: Beethoven9thFace, after reading all of your posts about NY, I thank god that I don't live there. Nevada is becoming more and more liberal as well, but at least it's livable here. (For now, at least!)
I am all for gun owners rights..... But I hardly consider that the new law makes WNY unlivable.....
Quote: bbvk05
The 'benefits' are joke in comparison to the rights we are surrendering.
Well, this guy, in the video I linked to, is suppose to be on your side.
Quote:Gottlieb is the Chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, a Board Member of the American Conservative Union, President of the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise, President of the American Political Action Committee, President of NoInternetTax.org, and President of KeepAndBearArms.com.
here again is the video of him speaking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E9UMox1WoTw
Quote: SOOPOOI am all for gun owners rights..... But I hardly consider that the new law makes WNY unlivable.....
Agree. WNY is awesome, I just get very worked up because of what I see as wasted potential, mostly, IMO, as a result of political ineptitude. Add in ever increasing Authoritarianism, and I come unhinged.
I’m currently in the midst of a delusion of grandeur and attempting to gain support for a partition movement to make upstate the 51st state, name TBD. Gadsden will be our new state flag. Keep an eye on your mailbox, I need your support! ;)
Quote: rxwineWell, this guy, in the video I linked to, is suppose to be on your side.
Yes, one of the writers of the bill supports the bill. No surprise there. Gottlieb has favored universal background checks for years, and his group is primarily a pro-carry group. It isn't a surprise to see him negotiating something he wants (a framework for national carry rights) for something he doesn't care about--- universal or expanded background checks.
There are other people that oppose government control of private sales, and that is a more mainstream opinion by major gun groups.
It's also worth noting that these 'deals' can't actually be counted on. Even if this deal was a fair trade (it isn't), there's nothing stopping the next congress from sweeping away the new gains. Gun control advocates immediately violate the deals and press for more asinine restrictions. GCA 68 is the perfect example. That complete federal overreach was supposed to be the end-all of federal regulation. Here we are still talking about more pointless restrictions that will do precisely nothing.
Quote: FaceAgree. WNY is awesome, I just get very worked up because of what I see as wasted potential, mostly, IMO, as a result of political ineptitude. Add in ever increasing Authoritarianism, and I come unhinged.
I’m currently in the midst of a delusion of grandeur and attempting to gain support for a partition movement to make upstate the 51st state, name TBD. Gadsden will be our new state flag. Keep an eye on your mailbox, I need your support! ;)
If I still lived there I would sign. But wasted potential no doubt. In Rochester there was always talk of getting rid of the Skyway, one of the few things that made working in downtown nice. Go all over town via connections of buildings without getting cold or wet. Sure, part of the "Skyway" was underground but what did that matter. But for some reason they wanted it gone.
Licensing means that, like a driver's license or passport, you get your license renewed every 10 years or something like that. I think guns should be reregistered every 5 years or so, for compliance. And yeah, the classes.
I dont' have a solution for criminals, except go and get 'em. Eliminate straw purchases and sales to criminal groups. And enforce gun usage and gun possession when they don't have a license or registration.
Obviously, yeah, the politicians in the US are having knee-jerk reactions. That's because if you leave politicians (especially in Washington) to do something useful in Washington, they'll manage to do nothing or water it down so much that a gun restriction law somehow has to lead to a compromise giving something to the gun owners too, plus some bridge between Timbuktu, MS, and Timbukfuk, AL. What did you expect?
Quote: boymimboYep, I guess if the mentally unstable and those vulnerable can't have guns, I'm all for it.
Licensing means that, like a driver's license or passport, you get your license renewed every 10 years or something like that. I think guns should be reregistered every 5 years or so, for compliance. And yeah, the classes.
I dont' have a solution for criminals, except go and get 'em. Eliminate straw purchases and sales to criminal groups. And enforce gun usage and gun possession when they don't have a license or registration.
Obviously, yeah, the politicians in the US are having knee-jerk reactions. That's because if you leave politicians (especially in Washington) to do something useful in Washington, they'll manage to do nothing or water it down so much that a gun restriction law somehow has to lead to a compromise giving something to the gun owners too, plus some bridge between Timbuktu, MS, and Timbukfuk, AL. What did you expect?
How can a seemingly smart person like yourself continue to believe that guns can somehow be controlled in the U.S.? Your naivety and complete breakdown in logic is stunning.
A gentleman attending a gun show in Idaho now has a Gun Show Loop Hole right in his eye thanks to a responsible gun owner[tm] who brought a loaded weapon to the gun show. Ooops! Lesson learned!
Quote: boymimboYep, I guess if the mentally unstable and those vulnerable can't have guns, I'm all for it.
Licensing means that, like a driver's license or passport, you get your license renewed every 10 years or something like that. I think guns should be reregistered every 5 years or so, for compliance. And yeah, the classes.
I dont' have a solution for criminals, except go and get 'em. Eliminate straw purchases and sales to criminal groups. And enforce gun usage and gun possession when they don't have a license or registration.
/sigh. I think we're starting to loop and again it’s the gun/car issue. I’ll state it as obviously as I can. Driving is a privilege, one that you must prove you are capable and responsible enough to partake in. If you can, you get your license. Guns are a Right. The Constitution / Bill of Rights / Second Amendment is our license, for better or worse. Maybe that sounds crazy, but it’s a fact and one that demands consideration. Some (not necessarily you, boymimbo) hate that fact, and that is fine. Like I said, get on your reps ass, have him submit the 28th Amendment to repeal the 2nd, and get 38 states to go along. If that works, then maybe you can do a car-like licensing of guns. Until that happens, our license is the 2nd, regardless of individual opinions or even if it's the best thing to do. It just is.
But still, if me and you sat down and hashed out a plan based on our points of view we’ve given in this thread, like bbvk05 said, I see mostly things that will only affect legal gun owners. I think one of the only things we might affect is guns “falling through the cracks”, so to speak. Our solution might prevent a crim getting a gun through a random sale. Based on my experiences, I can visualize it working. My long guns have no registration, and if it came to selling one, highest bid gets it, simple as that. My pistols are registered and anything they do falls on me whether in my possession or not. I’m surely not going to (nor could I legally) just give them to the highest bidder. So yeah, that might help this one area. But neither I nor any of us gunners are gonna budge on registration without some good faith protection.
Your last bit, I think, sums it all up. Neither you nor I nor any other person I’ve seen on the anti OR the pro side has any solution for the crim, but yet there's a clamor to disarm the honest citizens. This, more than anything that's ever been uttered, is what makes me very, very angry with the antis. Not even that they want to take my guns, but that the politicians are handing out a Potemkin village in response and claiming this will fix it. It’s a blatant, bold face lie, one that they think you and I and everyone else are stupid enough to fall for, and they piss all over our Constitution in the process. Then, they have the absolute gall to parade these families out for political agendas… I tell, it brings out a long since buried side of me, one that just wants to headbutt a mf’er. It offends me on a level I can’t tolerate or even explain.
Quote: s2dbakerThis thread has totally fallen off topic.
OK, s2d, you've done your best to show that stupidity exists and accidents happen. I don't think anyone can argue that.
But now what? Do you have a proposal, a statement, a debate topic? Or is this posting of daily/weekly incidents your only purpose in this thread?
Aren't you from LI? Do the things in NYSAFE please you? What about the bill before Congress now?
Quote:The only felons who can lawfully retain a gun, according to exceptions written into the statute, are those convicted of anti-trust violations or crimes involving unfair trading practices.
Hahaha.
Sounds like the 1 percent are getting a better deal. What's new?
http://www.nysun.com/national/supreme-court-decision-may-permit-felons-to-own/80870/
Quote: FaceLike I said, get on your reps ass, have him submit the 28th Amendment to repeal the 2nd, and get 38 states to go along. If that works, then maybe you can do a car-like licensing of guns. Until that happens, our license is the 2nd, regardless of individual opinions or even if it's the best thing to do. It just is.
This is a good point. These gun control politicians (like Sen. Dianne Feinstein) should just be honest and seek to repeal the 2nd Amendment if they truly believe that public opinion is overwhelmingly on their side.
Quote: Beethoven9thThis is a good point. These gun control politicians (like Sen. Dianne Feinstein) should just be honest and seek to repeal the 2nd Amendment if they truly believe that public opinion is overwhelmingly on their side.
The things Frau Führerstein and her ilk want to do are simply unconstitutional. Don't like it? Change the constitution. It is the only way.
Funny thing, though - the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. But oddly, there is no penalty for disobeying it as far as I can tell. Strange, innit? But, it is law, so it must be obeyed regardless if the President himself says otherwise. Anyone (Law Enforcement) who engages in an unlawful act (breaking the Constitution) because they were "just following orders" (Executive order) should in no way be protected from prosecution (US v Keenan).
Lol I am not a lawyer, so don't rest your freedom on my internet "wisdom". If you do and it goes bad, hey, I'll see you in GenPop! =D
Those who believe repealing the 2nd would make a difference must also believe that by repealing the 1st Amendment people would not have the right to publish pamphlets without state approval and censorship.
Quote: Beethoven9thUm...without the 1st Amendment, government censorship would in fact be possible. And without the 2nd, the state could confiscate everybody's guns.
The point he is making is that these rights exist with or without government recognition. The amendments you mention only recognize a preexisting right.
Quote: bbvk05The point he is making is that these rights exist with or without government recognition. The amendments you mention only recognize a preexisting right.
My overall point is that without the Constitution the government could do whatever it wants to us, regardless of any "natural" rights we may think we have.
The fact that the people possess the power to return well-disciplined rifle fire if they get out of line does.
I believe that all human beings possess inherent, natural rights. Some regimes choose to suppress them. Some peoples choose to allow it. I don't want to see it get worse here in America.
Quote: FaceOK, s2d, you've done your best to show that stupidity exists and accidents happen. I don't think anyone can argue that.
But now what? Do you have a proposal, a statement, a debate topic? Or is this posting of daily/weekly incidents your only purpose in this thread?
Aren't you from LI? Do the things in NYSAFE please you? What about the bill before Congress now?
His point seems to be he doesn't like guns so he thinks nobody should be allowed to have one and he will not be satisfied until they are banned.
FWIW it is what liberals think about *anything* they do not like other people having or doing.
If he had to waste time with a safe and trigger lock he might be dead instead of just injured.
Au contraire! I fully endorse the right to bear as many weapons as you can stuff in a bunker. Just don't forget to clean them often :)Quote: AZDuffmanHis point seems to be he doesn't like guns so he thinks nobody should be allowed to have one and he will not be satisfied until they are banned.
FWIW it is what liberals think about *anything* they do not like other people having or doing.
Quote: s2dbakerAu contraire! I fully endorse the right to bear as many weapons as you can stuff in a bunker. Just don't forget to clean them often :)
Lucky for you I bought a Mosin. Only shot it once, 30 rounds. Had to clean it four times lol. Since that means I'll surely be dead within the month, it's been fun s2dbaker =)
Quote: treetopbuddygun control bill defeated in Senate.......fresh meat for.....Beethoven9th, rxwine, Face, AZDuffman, Boymimbo, s2dBaker......etc.
I haven't much to say. As a gunner, I can't say that I'm not happy to wave the finger flag to the Feinsteins of the world. But other than that, I haven't much reaction. I mean, it's the gov. Whether for or against, it's sure to be fucked up. And they did.
So "yay" for beating down nonsense that hadn't a chance in hell of doing much.
And "boo" for still not focusing on the real issue.
I guess I'm happy for the cause, but I'm still a NY'er, and I'm still a criminal.
If (when) NYSAFE gets trashed, then you'll see me running down the street wearing my Gadsden flag as a cape =D
Quote: treetopbuddygun control bill defeated in Senate
Thank god, now if they'd only focus more on criminal control...
