Poll

7 votes (43.75%)
3 votes (18.75%)
1 vote (6.25%)
5 votes (31.25%)

16 members have voted

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1494
  • Posts: 26521
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 18th, 2011 at 12:21:48 PM permalink
There has been talk of having at least a dinner for members coming to Vegas for the Global Gaming Expo, October 4-6. I'm certainly planning to do the show, as I have every year since 1999. At this point, I'm just soliciting expressions of interest.

The question for the poll is if we were to do a dinner, would you prefer it one of the show evenings, or the Monday or Friday outside the show, or a weekend outside the show. The pros and cons are pretty obvious to doing a dinner during the show:

Pros: You're here anyway so you don't need to plan an extra Vegas day for the dinner.
Cons: There are a lot of business meetings and parties during the show itself, which may conflict with the WoVcon dinner.

I'll attend the dinner either way. I think the best day would be the Thursday evening of the show, but I'm just one vote. Please only vote if the odds of you coming for the show are at least 50%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 18th, 2011 at 12:30:59 PM permalink
I like that one person voted for "I'm Jerry Logan" in a poll where only one answer is permitted:-)

I'm about 75% to attend. Later in the week is better than earlier for me. So, if Thursday ends up not working, Friday would be my second choice.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 1911
Joined: May 10, 2011
July 18th, 2011 at 12:57:23 PM permalink
I voted during the show. I also have about a 75% chance of attending. I like to have Monday to myself and I usually go home on Thursday. Given that, there's still only a 50% chance of attending dinner because one night (Tue or Wed) is reserved for a company dinner.

Regardless, if I'm at the show, I'd at least like to meet people sometime during the day.
I heart Crystal Math.
avargov
avargov
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 615
Joined: Aug 5, 2010
July 18th, 2011 at 1:09:26 PM permalink
I am not going to the show, but I live in Vegas, so as long as I am home, would be interested in dinner.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
July 18th, 2011 at 1:39:07 PM permalink
I didn't vote, because my choices didn't fall neatly into any category. Of course, I was tempted to vote for JL.

If G2E wasn't sandwiched between the Jewish holidays, I'd be staying longer or arriving sooner. As it is, I'll be arriving Sunday around noon, and leaving Thursday at 9:50.

Therefore, I'd vote for any night, Sun-Wed, or Thursday if I can get a volunteer for someone to give me a lift to the airport by 8:00. Mind you, I'd rather not have to be the one to force an early end to the dinner. After all, is there any chance of, as a group, terrorizing some local casino after dinner? I'd certainly want to be a part of that.

Even if my ride volunteers to skip out of dinner early, I'd hate to have to be watching my watch all thru dinner.

That said, Monday is probably the best day, since although it's before G2E starts, certainly even if you're flying in, you'll be there by Monday evening, right? Want to keep Tuesday and Wednesday open for any G2E related stuff.

Quote: CryatalMath

I'd at least like to meet people sometime during the day.

That's practically a given.

But that provides another reason to have dinner Monday: To map out plans for meeting during the show.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1494
  • Posts: 26521
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 18th, 2011 at 1:58:26 PM permalink
The show hours say the show ends at 3:00 on Thursday. Maybe we could do a real early dinner after the show and then hit a casino.

Regarding meet-ups during the show, I'd like to suggest that the Shufflemaster area be an unofficial WoV gathering ground. For those who don't know, they staff about a dozen different table games with very lovely models, some of whom also model for the TableMax units.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gofaster87
gofaster87
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 445
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
July 18th, 2011 at 2:09:27 PM permalink
.....
MrCasinoGames
MrCasinoGames
  • Threads: 200
  • Posts: 11986
Joined: Sep 13, 2010
July 24th, 2011 at 11:40:26 AM permalink
I'm 100% to attend.
Let me know went and were.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 24th, 2011 at 12:13:28 PM permalink
I'll be there if at all possible. Somebody please remember to bring a sharp knife to help cut the straps on my straight jacket.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
July 24th, 2011 at 12:15:19 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The show hours say the show ends at 3:00 on Thursday. Maybe we could do a real early dinner after the show and then hit a casino.


During the show is good, as later Thursday nights I have to deal dice. Locals often work nights. (As for the casino, here's your chance to get some shots in!)

Seriously, many of us might be with wives/girlfriends who'd wish away from all the shop talk after the show, (or would hit on Mike or something...)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
gofaster87
gofaster87
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 445
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
July 24th, 2011 at 12:32:34 PM permalink
.....
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 24th, 2011 at 12:43:54 PM permalink
Block out the second Tuesday in May for 2020, will you? My horoscope says I will be unlucky that day.
Switch
Switch
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 934
Joined: Apr 29, 2010
July 24th, 2011 at 2:53:11 PM permalink
I'll be there before, during and after the G2E so I am around any of the times although I will have events to go to during the show.

I'll also be mainly on Shuffle Master's booth during G2E so I should be fairly easy to locate on any of the days.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 24th, 2011 at 3:08:38 PM permalink
Hope to see you there and report on switch tables in Blackhawk and Central City on my next visit. Will also be asking dealers what they thought of Shefflemaster's training ,
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
July 24th, 2011 at 6:02:05 PM permalink
Quote: gofaster87

Just thinking of your yourself and dealer buddies again? I work during the day like most people I know. Shop talk? Of course there's going to be shop talk. Im not there to ask everyone how their kids are doing in school. Maybe I should have dinner on my own. Better yet maybe I should start planning WOVCON 2020 and get everyone's confirmation now.


Just saying....We're in Vegas....take the lady to see a show when the night falls....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
July 26th, 2011 at 7:28:13 PM permalink
Although a conference pass is out of the question for most of us, another thread prompted me to review the session topics.

It seems our fearless leader might be prompted to get a conference pass, or at least find his way into one particular session:
Quote:

Blackjack Ball: A Peek Inside
11:45AM - 12:45PM (Wednesday, October 05, 2011)
One of the most mysterious of all player events, the Blackjack Ball, is an annual gathering of card counters and advantage players. Casino executive are strictly forbidden, but at this session, the organizer will explain how the event is run, what issues are discussed and how casinos can legally counter the moves made by these professional players.
Key Takeaways:
A look inside the exclusive event
Are count teams effective? Learn how card counters work
Learn how to legally counter advantage player moves

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 26th, 2011 at 7:40:24 PM permalink
This looks like those police stings, where crooks with warrants out for them, show up to collect winnings on
a non-existent drawing. Hurry in AP's. We won't tell anybody! ROFLMAO
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
July 26th, 2011 at 7:59:55 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Although a conference pass is out of the question for most of us, another thread prompted me to review the session topics.

It seems our fearless leader might be prompted to get a conference pass, or at least find his way into one particular session:



Indeed. Doesn't he have a title to defend?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 26th, 2011 at 8:04:54 PM permalink
Or should we pay attention to the man behind the curtain ???
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
July 27th, 2011 at 4:17:57 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Indeed. Doesn't he have a title to defend?

Yes, but bear in mind: This session is a discussion ABOUT the BJ Ball. Not the BJ Ball itself.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 858
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
July 27th, 2011 at 4:33:30 AM permalink
If I can get the time off of work I will go. The tickets to the exhibition booths are $200 (ouch!) I think, there is also a lecture series that is really expensive. For someone who has gone, what is my best course of action to attend?
Kayday
Kayday
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 45
Joined: Dec 11, 2009
July 27th, 2011 at 11:20:21 AM permalink
At last some luck comes my way!

I just happen to have a Las Vegas trip planned for Oct 5-9 (not for the show) and would definitely be interested in meeting for dinner.
gofaster87
gofaster87
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 445
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
July 29th, 2011 at 10:38:05 AM permalink
.....
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 858
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
August 7th, 2011 at 3:22:08 AM permalink
I booked my flight and got my G2E ticket, I just need to snag a hotel room quickly. I would prefer to do something during the show times as I will be leaving on the 6th in the afternoon.
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 858
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
August 9th, 2011 at 4:06:38 PM permalink
I know I am probably going to regret this, but I think I am going to stay at IP for G2E, I can get a room there for $20 a night and al my other players card offers are lousy (probably since it is a big event). If I do not show up Wednesday send a search team for me because I am probably still wandering the halls trying to find my room and praying that I do not get killed/raped.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
August 9th, 2011 at 5:27:25 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

I know I am probably going to regret this, but I think I am going to stay at IP for G2E, I can get a room there for $20 a night



I've stayed there back in 08. It was clean enough, very cheap and very conveniently located.

Quote:

If I do not show up Wednesday send a search team for me because I am probably still wandering the halls trying to find my room and praying that I do not get killed/raped.



If you reserve through Caesars "My Rewards" page, you can ask for a room near the elevators. I didn't ask, but I did get a room a few steps from the bank of elevators closest to the front desk and the casino. Ask again when you check in. You won't get lost (trust me, I get lost even in places I know well), but the ice machine will be quite a distance away; you can't have everything.

They handed me a property map at check in, which was nice, but it was too small to make much out. You can print one from the IP page, though,a nd you should. i think it's the most complex property map in Vegas.

Feel free to ask if you have any other questions. DJ stayed more recently. His review carries several good tips about the property.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
August 9th, 2011 at 5:52:20 PM permalink
Nick, you can walk from IP to the Sand's convention center. Fine location, really. See ya soon!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
August 9th, 2011 at 6:48:26 PM permalink
Nick -

If you're really that worried, I'll escort you.

I'm coming in for G2E and will be staying at the IP too.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
August 10th, 2011 at 4:11:42 PM permalink
"Escort" ?

It occurs to me just how badly that was worded.

I meant that I stayed at IP last year, and by the end of my week, I figured it out and wouldn't mind sharing my knowledge.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
September 23rd, 2011 at 6:28:02 AM permalink
As we get close, I figured I'd bump this thread.

Unless I missed it, we still haven't settled upon a date / time for our dinner.

Therefore, I'd like to make my own suggestion.

Location: Buca di Beppo. I ate there last year with a group of about 25. They serve family style Italian. Reasonably priced. Located on Flamingo, just east of Paradise. 1.25 miles from the Strip.

Date/Time: Monday evening.

Follow dinner by heading across the street to Terribles.

---

I also created a Google Map with a lot of places marked. For whatever reason, Buda di Beppo keeps losing it's marker, although it's correctly pinpointed.

---

My personal plans are: I arrive Sunday around noon and rent a car. I check in at Fiesta Henderson (Dan's stomping ground). Tool around town for a day and a half. I'm only at Fiesta for one night, and getting rid of the car late Monday or very early Tuesday. I'm staying ay Imperial Palace Monday thru Wednesday. My flight home is Thursday at 9:30.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
miplet
miplet
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 2114
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 8:10:09 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'm staying ay Imperial Palace Monday thru Wednesday. My flight home is Thursday at 9:30.


Same here. My flight gets in at 1:35pm on Monday. Takes off at 9:30pm on Thursday.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 8:56:46 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'd like to make my own suggestion.

Location: Buca di Beppo. I ate there last year with a group of about 25. They serve family style Italian. Reasonably priced. Located on Flamingo, just east of Paradise. 1.25 miles from the Strip.

Date/Time: Monday evening.

Follow dinner by heading across the street to Terribles.

By the way:

I suggested Monday because of comments that there are often impromptu things that happen with people you meet at G2E. Also, Tuesday and Wednesday the show ends at 5:00, but TCS John Huxley's event at the GhostBar at Palms doesn't end until 8:00. Personally, I figured I'd go there one afternoon, and play a little 7-14-21 afterwards....

If you all want to do it Tuesday or Wednesday, I'm fine with that.

Although I don't fly until 9:30 Thursday, I'd hate to be at a get-together, constantly checking my watch....
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1494
  • Posts: 26521
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 9:00:48 AM permalink
I think Buca is a great idea. For those unfamiliar with the place, it is an Italian restaurant that despite being a chain, still does a decent job at maintaining a mom&pop feel. The portions are enormous and the quality of the food is quite good. There is another one near Desert Shores, pretty close to my house, where I have eaten several times, and always left happy, although with some guilt for breaking the deadly sin about gluttony.

From the voting, it seems a dinner during the show wins. So, I'd like to suggest Tuesday evening. Show hours Tuesday are 7:30-5:00. Just to warn you, traffic on Paradise will get really bad around rush hour. I'd like to suggest starting as early as possible, to beat the traffic and the dinner rush. Some gambling at Terribles afterwards sounds good too, which I would partake in. Perhaps we'll run into Methadone Girl I met during my review.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 1:02:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think Buca is a great idea.

Really? Wow.

In 13 years of marriage, I've never had my wife agree to a restaurant I suggested.

I gotta go out alone more often!

---

So now it's just a matter of picking a time. I'm wide open, but I'm thinking 5:00. I.E. Leave G2E around 4:30, beating the crowd out the parking lot, as well as beating some of the rush hour traffic and typical dinner customers at the restaurant.

I'm sure we can call Buca on Tuesday to let them know how many people we'll be, but if we're going to be a big group, I'd like to call by Sunday to give them a rough number.

So, besides the Wiz and Me, who's going to join us?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1494
  • Posts: 26521
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 1:58:47 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

In 13 years of marriage, I've never had my wife agree to a restaurant I suggested.



I would like to think I'm an agreeable person. My wife and I have resorted to flipping a coin lots of times when we can't agree on a restaurant.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

So now it's just a matter of picking a time. I'm wide open, but I'm thinking 5:00. I.E. Leave G2E around 4:30, beating the crowd out the parking lot, as well as beating some of the rush hour traffic and typical dinner customers at the restaurant.



I second that! It is tough spending all day at the show, so I tend to prefer going for 4-5 hours a day. So, let's get an official head count. Say "aye" if you're confirming. I can give a ride to the restaurant from the show, but make no promises to get you back, it will depend where you're staying.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
miplet
miplet
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 2114
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 2:06:05 PM permalink
Aye :+)
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 6:38:13 PM permalink
Um...

Just in case someone later on just does a scan of the "aye"s....


Aye
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1494
  • Posts: 26521
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 25th, 2011 at 6:58:06 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Aye



That is four so far. If we get up to six (not including me) I'll do a trivia contest.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28709
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
September 25th, 2011 at 10:10:08 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

In 13 years of marriage, I've never had my wife agree to a restaurant I suggested.



Same here. I like Chinese and Mexican, my wife
is a very bland eater, she likes places that have
mashed potatoes and creamed corn. I won't
even go to those places anymore, so we don't
eat out much. If I want crappy ordinary food,
I can make it myself.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 858
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
September 26th, 2011 at 2:57:47 AM permalink
Im going to have to say nay, but will meet up with everyone at terribles after you are done with dinner (I am not a fan of Italian and am somewhat of a picky eater unfortunately). I went to a McCormic and Shmicks restaurant across from Terribles in February and it was decent, but Buca is definitely a better bet for a large group.
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 858
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
September 26th, 2011 at 3:04:33 AM permalink
DJ Teddy Bear Dont rent a car from Fox, their car rental is not at the rent a car center and the place has a very bad reputation! Be careful (I was looking at your google map)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
September 26th, 2011 at 5:56:56 AM permalink
Yeah, I've got a reservation with Fox. Total cost for two days is $33.

The last time I even thought about renting at McCarran, the line at Dollar was over an hour. Currently, the price quote I got from Dollar is $53. Others were even higher.

I'll try my luck with Fox.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1494
  • Posts: 26521
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
October 3rd, 2011 at 3:04:24 PM permalink
I don't think there has been any change to the plan, but here is the schedule tomorrow, as I understand it.

1:00 Mini-meet at the Shufflemaster "booth."
5:00 Dinner at Buca di Bepo on east Flamingo.
8:00 (apx) Gambling at Terrible's after dinner.

As far as I know there are four confirmed for dinner, and a number of maybes. If nobody has made a reservation yet, perhaps we should do that after the mini-meet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10996
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
October 7th, 2011 at 8:25:24 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

DJ Teddy Bear Dont rent a car from Fox, their car rental is not at the rent a car center and the place has a very bad reputation! Be careful (I was looking at your google map)

I plan on including a write-up about Fox in my own G2E wrap up. The wrap-up won't be nearly as long or extensive as my recent cruise review, but it will be substantial.

The short review of Fox is this: I had no problems and have no reason to avoid them in the future. In fact, they were able to do me a small favor that would have been impossible with any of the car agents in the combined rental center. Stay tuned for my write-up....
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
  • Jump to: