Bad Day in Texas
Poll
 | 2 votes (5.4%) | ||
| | 4 votes (10.81%) | ||
| | 27 votes (72.97%) | ||
| | 2 votes (5.4%) | ||
| | 2 votes (5.4%) |
37 members have voted
July 8th, 2011 at 12:15:06 PM
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This father of a two-year old went over the rail trying to handle a ball tossed into the seats by Rangers outfielder Josh Hamilton. He fell 20 ft to the concrete below. Although initially conscious, he died while being transported to the hospital. At least two other individuals have fallen over the rails at this stadium. One going after a foul ball, and another while posing for a picture. One would assume the stadium would take steps to make it safer, but you cannot accident proof the entire place.
Where does the responsibility for this tragedy lie?
Where does the responsibility for this tragedy lie?
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July 8th, 2011 at 12:22:59 PM
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Completely with the fan. Be aware of where you are!
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July 8th, 2011 at 12:30:23 PM
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I voted "mostly the fan" because "totally the fan" wasn't available. The railings are there to keep people back from a long fall. If they of their own accord choose to cross the rail with their upper body and thereby lose the traction of their feet, well, I don't think any of that can be blamed on the stadium.
Sad, yes. Could the stadium put crash pads on the concrete to save the overzealous fans, sure. But fault? Nah.
Sad, yes. Could the stadium put crash pads on the concrete to save the overzealous fans, sure. But fault? Nah.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
July 8th, 2011 at 12:37:46 PM
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I hate to blame the victim, but I also don't feel that the stadium or Josh Hamilton are to blame at all for this sad incident. The railings in Rangers Stadium meet both OSHA and City of Arlington code and Josh Hamilton was just doing what most every ballplayer does with an out of play ball. I was watching this game live last night but they did not show the fall on the FSN broadcast. I later saw the Comcast broadcast for the A's and they did show the fall. It really looked unnecessary, the movement he made to try and catch the ball. I think simply bending his knees would have allowed him to keep his weight on the correct side of the railing and get low enough to catch the ball.
The medical examiner said he died from 'blunt force trauma' and he was lucid when being taken to the ambulance, where he died of cardiac arrest en route. I think he was probably able to protect his head with his arms at impact, but his chest probably took the force of the fall.
His poor son had to watch it all. Just a really bad situation all around. There will be lawsuits and out of court settlements for this, but I still don't think anyone was to blame. Just a freak accident.
Josh is a very religious guy (which he used to come out of drug addiction). I'm afraid this is going to mess with his head quite a bit. When he is healthy and clear headed he makes playing baseball look effortless, it is so natural to him. I hope this does not stir the demons he constantly fights to keep at bay.
The medical examiner said he died from 'blunt force trauma' and he was lucid when being taken to the ambulance, where he died of cardiac arrest en route. I think he was probably able to protect his head with his arms at impact, but his chest probably took the force of the fall.
His poor son had to watch it all. Just a really bad situation all around. There will be lawsuits and out of court settlements for this, but I still don't think anyone was to blame. Just a freak accident.
Josh is a very religious guy (which he used to come out of drug addiction). I'm afraid this is going to mess with his head quite a bit. When he is healthy and clear headed he makes playing baseball look effortless, it is so natural to him. I hope this does not stir the demons he constantly fights to keep at bay.
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
July 8th, 2011 at 12:38:56 PM
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Just looking at the picture tells me the railing is too low. Just below average eye level, seated, could have prevented this.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
July 8th, 2011 at 12:46:21 PM
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Quote: DeMangoJust looking at the picture tells me the railing is too low. Just below average eye level, seated, could have prevented this.
I agree. It doesn't even look like it'd provide much protection for the kid in the red standing on the left of the frame. It's barely above his waist, which would put the railing somewhere around thigh level for an average adult male. I guess that might meet standards, but I've never been in a sports arena with railings that were below my waist (I'm 6'4") so I would assess at least a little blame to the stadium.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
July 8th, 2011 at 1:03:58 PM
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Are you asking whether the stadium will wind up paying (accepting some legal liability/responsibility) if the deceased's family/estate were to sue? If so, I think the stadium is a little at risk here, at least in our very litigious society.
It is difficult to tell just how high that railing is constructed. It appears to be about chest high to a seated man (like the guy in the blue shirt). That seems a little low for a railing separating a crowd from a major drop. I think that's about the same height as the rail in front of my front-row mezzanine seats at a theater where I attend plays, and I feel the need for particular caution when I am standing at my seat -- I think that rail should be higher.
If you add in the fact that the stadium operators should know that it is common practice for baseball fans (even in the front row) to try to catch fly balls, even by leaning or jumping, then it seems it would have been quite prudent for them to construct a barrier a little higher. Now if the fan had already been served half a dozen beers before the outfielder lobbed a ball toward him, there is more potential for a court to establish liability/responsibility on the part of the stadium.
But yeah, if the guy was sober and a bit more sane than most outfield fans, he should have been more careful.
It is difficult to tell just how high that railing is constructed. It appears to be about chest high to a seated man (like the guy in the blue shirt). That seems a little low for a railing separating a crowd from a major drop. I think that's about the same height as the rail in front of my front-row mezzanine seats at a theater where I attend plays, and I feel the need for particular caution when I am standing at my seat -- I think that rail should be higher.
If you add in the fact that the stadium operators should know that it is common practice for baseball fans (even in the front row) to try to catch fly balls, even by leaning or jumping, then it seems it would have been quite prudent for them to construct a barrier a little higher. Now if the fan had already been served half a dozen beers before the outfielder lobbed a ball toward him, there is more potential for a court to establish liability/responsibility on the part of the stadium.
But yeah, if the guy was sober and a bit more sane than most outfield fans, he should have been more careful.
July 8th, 2011 at 1:24:02 PM
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So, if the "chest-height to a seated man" fence was built higher, wouldn't it block the view of that person? Or the person in the 2nd row? The fence will become more of a negative than a positive at that point. How does a grown up man *not* comprehend that there's a risk that can be avoided with a modicum of good sense and temporary focus?
Let's assume for a second that the man didn't fall over the rail via a full speed run. He knew how far the ground was beneath him. He simply chose to ignore it in the hopes for a baseball. A man valued his own life less than a baseball. I'd say this worked out about right, actually. His Darwin award is in the mail.
I moved to Texas 2 years ago and I've been wildly disappointed. For all the blusterous talk of "Self-made men" and "Don't want no government handouts," I've met an exceedingly large percentage (compared to north NJ) of whining grown-up children who can't seem to use the lavatory properly without someone holding the important bits for them and telling them what to do. Maybe it's just Houston and Dallas? I don't know.
Let's assume for a second that the man didn't fall over the rail via a full speed run. He knew how far the ground was beneath him. He simply chose to ignore it in the hopes for a baseball. A man valued his own life less than a baseball. I'd say this worked out about right, actually. His Darwin award is in the mail.
I moved to Texas 2 years ago and I've been wildly disappointed. For all the blusterous talk of "Self-made men" and "Don't want no government handouts," I've met an exceedingly large percentage (compared to north NJ) of whining grown-up children who can't seem to use the lavatory properly without someone holding the important bits for them and telling them what to do. Maybe it's just Houston and Dallas? I don't know.
July 8th, 2011 at 1:46:24 PM
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There was an incident just a short while back where a guy was filmed dropping his daughter to catch a fly ball. That one was funny on video, but no one got hurt.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
July 8th, 2011 at 1:52:34 PM
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Quote: PerpetualNewbieMaybe it's just Houston and Dallas? I don't know.
As a Fort Worth man I would say most definitely. I despise the Dallas crowd for the most part.
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
July 8th, 2011 at 1:55:22 PM
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Anyway...bungee cord.
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July 8th, 2011 at 2:17:12 PM
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I voted Josh.
If he didn't toss the ball there, the man would not die.
If he didn't toss the ball there, the man would not die.
winning streaks come and go, losing streak never ends.
July 8th, 2011 at 2:26:56 PM
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The railing are probably lower than they might ordinarily be to avoid obscuring the view of a play on that side of the field.
However, after the first or second incident, you'd think that they would put in nets that would extend horizontally about 6 feet, without blocking the view.
Hell. Some stadiums already have nets for the simple reason to avoid debris from falling on the fans in the lower levels!
However, after the first or second incident, you'd think that they would put in nets that would extend horizontally about 6 feet, without blocking the view.
Hell. Some stadiums already have nets for the simple reason to avoid debris from falling on the fans in the lower levels!
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July 8th, 2011 at 2:44:47 PM
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So how would a higher railing help sell tickets when people couldn't see over it?
He leaned too far. Its not as if he didn't know what he was doing. Its high up, there is an edge and there is a railing. If the emotional or monetary value of the ball meant that much to him,,, so be it. He made his choice. What does he want? A special dispensation of the law of gravity?
I wonder if he died wondering how he could have been so stupid?
Rowdy fans. Sporting event. What do you expect? Rational thought and sedate behavior?
He leaned too far. Its not as if he didn't know what he was doing. Its high up, there is an edge and there is a railing. If the emotional or monetary value of the ball meant that much to him,,, so be it. He made his choice. What does he want? A special dispensation of the law of gravity?
I wonder if he died wondering how he could have been so stupid?
Rowdy fans. Sporting event. What do you expect? Rational thought and sedate behavior?
July 8th, 2011 at 3:17:50 PM
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The railings in the 300 lvl at HSBC are even lower, methinks. And the stairs leading to them are quite steep. I excersize Caution when approaching, as it is my responsibility to not fly haphazardly over the side. The Buffalo Zoo's bison pit's people fence is about knee high, again, not their fault if I get all soft in the brain and try to pet the pretty body stomper.
That rail is standard for every sporting stadium. High enough you can't just trip over it, low enough for unobscured viewing. No fault. And Hamilton? Oy. A 90mph seed into the stands that brains a child, his fault. Performing a baseball ritual for the betterment of fan enjoyment that went awry, not at all his fault.
That rail is standard for every sporting stadium. High enough you can't just trip over it, low enough for unobscured viewing. No fault. And Hamilton? Oy. A 90mph seed into the stands that brains a child, his fault. Performing a baseball ritual for the betterment of fan enjoyment that went awry, not at all his fault.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
July 8th, 2011 at 3:59:39 PM
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100% of the fault is with the fan. While I am sure he was just excited to be able to catch a foul ball, as another poster said, be aware where you are. Is a souvonier worth your life?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
July 8th, 2011 at 4:11:08 PM
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FWIW, during the very first game at the then-new ballpark in 1994, a fan fell over the railing. After that incident, the railings were raised to their existing height. I don't know exactly what the height is, but I do know that the height exceeds both MLB standards and OSHA standards.
For some reason, I latch on to 40" ... not that the metal part is 40" tall, but that the assembly - concrete wall stub plus height of rail - is 40". This means that there are 40" between where your foot falls and the top of the rail.
For comparison, your average desk top surface is about 30", and your average kitchen/bathroom countertop is about 36". You can measure this around your home.
So, go to your kitchen, put the side of your hand on top of the countertop, and the rail at the Ballpark will be about the same height as the top of your thumb. It hits a six-foot man at about his waist.
Next time you're at a game at your favorite park, take a quick measurement on where the top of the rail hits your body, then take a ruler to that point when you get home. It will probably be somewhere between 32" - 36", which are the standards (I think). The video (horrifying) and eyewitness testimony say the guy also slipped. His angle of fall, even in the photograph, support a fall at an angle rather than 90 degrees to the rail's plane, which also suggests a slip.
So ... if there's a problem with rail height, it's not due to following the "experts." The sports talk around here generally feels the same way this vote does, with the only extra possible things being maybe a netting (which is not foolproof, see recent all-star game fan jump) and maybe a warning given over the PA and by the ushers, similar to the "warning" flight attendants give to passengers sitting in exit rows.
This is not fun, the Rangers and Hamilton will do what's right. But it's nobody's fault, just one of those unexplainable, irreducible "risks" of waking up every day.
For some reason, I latch on to 40" ... not that the metal part is 40" tall, but that the assembly - concrete wall stub plus height of rail - is 40". This means that there are 40" between where your foot falls and the top of the rail.
For comparison, your average desk top surface is about 30", and your average kitchen/bathroom countertop is about 36". You can measure this around your home.
So, go to your kitchen, put the side of your hand on top of the countertop, and the rail at the Ballpark will be about the same height as the top of your thumb. It hits a six-foot man at about his waist.
Next time you're at a game at your favorite park, take a quick measurement on where the top of the rail hits your body, then take a ruler to that point when you get home. It will probably be somewhere between 32" - 36", which are the standards (I think). The video (horrifying) and eyewitness testimony say the guy also slipped. His angle of fall, even in the photograph, support a fall at an angle rather than 90 degrees to the rail's plane, which also suggests a slip.
So ... if there's a problem with rail height, it's not due to following the "experts." The sports talk around here generally feels the same way this vote does, with the only extra possible things being maybe a netting (which is not foolproof, see recent all-star game fan jump) and maybe a warning given over the PA and by the ushers, similar to the "warning" flight attendants give to passengers sitting in exit rows.
This is not fun, the Rangers and Hamilton will do what's right. But it's nobody's fault, just one of those unexplainable, irreducible "risks" of waking up every day.
July 8th, 2011 at 4:27:19 PM
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Possibly. If they can't design a suitable and safe rail of this design, then they could construct a higher one of plexiglass and not worry about blocking a view. There are lots of ways to make facilities safer without making them perform poorly.Quote: PerpetualNewbieSo, if the "chest-height to a seated man" fence was built higher, wouldn't it block the view of that person? Or the person in the 2nd row? The fence will become more of a negative than a positive at that point.
Possibly via alcohol, an entertainment event intended to draw his focus, and an outfielder tossing a ball not quite to him.Quote: PerpetualNewbieHow does a grown up man *not* comprehend that there's a risk that can be avoided with a modicum of good sense and temporary focus?
Not likely. Most accidents don't occur because someone chose to experience them.Quote: PerpetualNewbieA man valued his own life less than a baseball.
July 8th, 2011 at 4:55:40 PM
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Quote: DocThere are lots of ways to make facilities safer without making them perform poorly.
Texas had over 2 1/2 million people through the gates last year, and 1.7 so far this year, according to ESPN. Seems to me the place is plenty safe. Accidents happen.
July 8th, 2011 at 5:03:55 PM
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I suppose it is possible he stepped in a spilled beer.
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July 8th, 2011 at 5:08:25 PM
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In the morning news they said the stadium had made changes to the railings after a prior incident.
Still, who the hell even tries to catch a ball that close to the railing?
Still, who the hell even tries to catch a ball that close to the railing?
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July 8th, 2011 at 5:10:23 PM
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Quote: CalderTexas had over 2 1/2 million people through the gates last year, and 1.7 so far this year, according to ESPN. Seems to me the place is plenty safe. Accidents happen.
While true, an improvement probably isn't really that complicated or cost prohibitive. (IMO)
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July 8th, 2011 at 5:54:03 PM
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I think you can find plenty of examples by watching most any fly ball that falls roughly within arm's length of a railing. Somebody is scrambling/leaning for almost every one. I'm not saying that such behavior makes sense, only that it is very common, and I feel that the stadium management should go overboard in keeping folks from going overboard.Quote: NareedStill, who the hell even tries to catch a ball that close to the railing?
July 8th, 2011 at 6:10:32 PM
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Quote: DocI think you can find plenty of examples by watching most any fly ball that falls roughly within arm's length of a railing. Somebody is scrambling/leaning for almost every one. I'm not saying that such behavior makes sense, only that it is very common, and I feel that the stadium management should go overboard in keeping folks from going overboard.
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Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 8th, 2011 at 8:56:38 PM
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Quote: rxwineWhile true, an improvement probably isn't really that complicated or cost prohibitive.
Agreed, but I just wonder where it all ends. It strikes me as freak accident -- do teams have to idiot-proof their stadiums in the same way parents child-proof their homes?
Seems more like a teachable moment: "Billy, this is why you need to sit in your seat when I tell you to." I'm the sure the family's attorney will see it differently...
July 8th, 2011 at 9:23:08 PM
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Quote: CalderAgreed, but I just wonder where it all ends. It strikes me as freak accident -- do teams have to idiot-proof their stadiums in the same way parents child-proof their homes?
Hopefully not. Were it somebody getting hurt climbing a goal post (like in a football game) that (seems to me) much farther over the line of expected use and actions of the fans. There, I'm more inclined to go with, well what the hell did he expect?
They said this was his favorite player who tossed him the ball. Maybe the few extra inches he was leaning with his son there seemed worth it at that moment to not miss the ball and to give his son the ball later.
Maybe that's all he was thinking right at that moment.
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July 8th, 2011 at 9:51:49 PM
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That he fell and was still lucid afterwards, but died within 30 minutes, sounds a lot like Natasha Richardson's death a couple years ago from a simple fall during a skiing lesson. Head trauma....never know when it'll happen or how serious it can be.
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July 8th, 2011 at 9:53:11 PM
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Quote: rxwineMaybe that's all he was thinking right at that moment.
Can't argue with that, except to suggest that's precisely what makes it a teachable moment. Like a child chasing a ball into the street, in his excitement he disregarded any potential hazards around him, including a twenty-foot drop onto concrete.
July 8th, 2011 at 9:58:18 PM
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His kid watched him fall to his death? Ouch. Regardless...
For those of us arguing the other side, this is exactly our point. Maybe, just maybe there are things more important than a ball. That, if he klutzed the catch, his kid would have razzed him but he would have been an adult.. a parent.. and told his son that while the ball was important it wasn't worth.. well.. yeah.
That said, I feel the most bad for the kid. To watch your dad fall to his own death so.. stupidly. That's gotta do a number on ya.
Quote: rxwine
Maybe that's all he was thinking right at that moment.
For those of us arguing the other side, this is exactly our point. Maybe, just maybe there are things more important than a ball. That, if he klutzed the catch, his kid would have razzed him but he would have been an adult.. a parent.. and told his son that while the ball was important it wasn't worth.. well.. yeah.
That said, I feel the most bad for the kid. To watch your dad fall to his own death so.. stupidly. That's gotta do a number on ya.
July 8th, 2011 at 11:54:36 PM
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Well, I guess one could argue that thousands of people (probably) have also leaned and never fell catching a ball, so perhaps there was no real sense of danger.
The trouble is, with any slip, the instability can occur suddenly -- one moment you're fine, then whether you're carrying or standing, you go into the teetering point, where you either manage to not drop everything you're carrying or fall over.
A 3 foot rail and 6 foot man. That's like the perfect setup for flipping over if you get to the right point. You either recover or you're doomed.
The trouble is, with any slip, the instability can occur suddenly -- one moment you're fine, then whether you're carrying or standing, you go into the teetering point, where you either manage to not drop everything you're carrying or fall over.
A 3 foot rail and 6 foot man. That's like the perfect setup for flipping over if you get to the right point. You either recover or you're doomed.
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July 9th, 2011 at 2:32:49 AM
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20ft is the same as falling head first out of a second story office window onto the sidewalk. Think about it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
July 9th, 2011 at 4:41:22 AM
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I voted other. If Jesus didn't want that man to die, He would have let the ball fly into the man's hands so that he wouldn't have to lean over the rail. Jesus obviously interfered with the trajectory of the ball making the man lean over and fall. He wanted that poor man dead so clearly it's Jesus' fault.
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July 9th, 2011 at 4:57:56 AM
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I've heard the expression "the hand of God" and all. Perhaps that's where it comes from. Jesus tipping the ball at crucial moments in basketball games seems likely. And those awry golf shots. Jesus knocked my ball in the sand trap can't be proven though. Unless you find sandal footprints. Then maybe.
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July 9th, 2011 at 5:35:42 AM
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Quote: EvenBob20ft is the same as falling head first out of a second story office window onto the sidewalk. Think about it.
I used to have to sit thru safety training and remember about 12ft is a 50/50 chance of being fatal. 20ft is a ways to fall.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
July 9th, 2011 at 5:48:09 AM
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Honestly, I think a lot of normal folks like you and me would get caught up in
the moment and something like this could have happened to a lot of people.
Is the stadium at fault ? No, not 100 %.
But in hindsight, could they or SHOULD they have they done SOMETHING to protect
against a 20 foot fall ? Maybe.
Regardless, a very tragic incident.
the moment and something like this could have happened to a lot of people.
Is the stadium at fault ? No, not 100 %.
But in hindsight, could they or SHOULD they have they done SOMETHING to protect
against a 20 foot fall ? Maybe.
Regardless, a very tragic incident.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
July 9th, 2011 at 5:59:54 AM
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I think many roulette players have ideas that are similar to yours.
July 9th, 2011 at 6:03:22 AM
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Yes and in a stadium you always have "the press of the crowd" as well as sometimes having a sudden uncontrollable surge in a crowd, so careful thought should have been given to a non view-blocking solution such as a narrow net or ledge which would also provide desired shade for the tier below or something.Quote: JohnnyQHonestly, I think a lot of normal folks like you and me would get caught up in
the moment and something like this could have happened to a lot of people.
It could have been more wisely designed but I see no reason to impose liability on the stadium or the team.
July 9th, 2011 at 2:55:53 PM
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I was knocked off a loading dock 15 years ago and fell 6 feet onto concrete. Hospital bills were in the thousands. 20ft, the guy didn't have a chance.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
July 9th, 2011 at 3:29:04 PM
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.....
July 9th, 2011 at 3:31:22 PM
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100% the fan. I am always supercognizant of front row seats. I am sure driving home from a stadium is thousands of times riskier than sitting in the front row.
July 10th, 2011 at 1:33:57 AM
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Quote: gofaster87How did you get hurt only falling 6ft? Did you fall on your head or backwards?
'Only' 6 feet? Tell you what, get a 6' foot stepladder, stand on the very top on a paved driveway, and have somebody hit the ladder with a car and let us know how it turns out. It has to be a surprise, you can't know its coming. Try taking the full weight of your body on a knee or a shoulder or an elbow from that height.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
July 10th, 2011 at 1:55:35 AM
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We have a concept known as assumption of the risk.
A fan, particularly a front row fan, at an automobile race takes a knowing risk despite any safety barriers that may exist.
Here a fan was not pressed by a crowd or anything, he simply opted to lean far over a railing to snag a souvenir, perhaps a valuable one, and he toppled too far over. Its like a painter who stretches rather than getting down and moving the ladder again. Its that last inch that was his mistake but it is indeed his mistake.
The problem is do we impose any liability on the stadium because the design is marginal or inadequate for other foreseeable injuries. If in a desire to avoid crowd surge injuries they should have erected a net that would have also prevented this injury do they escape liability?
He was close to the edge. He leaned over due to excitement of the moment and inattention to his personal safety. He chose the seat and he chose to reach for the souvenir.
Sorry folks ... I just don't see stadium liability for not painting a sign reminding fans to not lean too far over that they fall. If you order hot cocoa at the casino can you say the excitement of the moment and the fact that the dealer was distracting you by dealing imposes liability on the casino for your act of not testing how hot it was?
A fan, particularly a front row fan, at an automobile race takes a knowing risk despite any safety barriers that may exist.
Here a fan was not pressed by a crowd or anything, he simply opted to lean far over a railing to snag a souvenir, perhaps a valuable one, and he toppled too far over. Its like a painter who stretches rather than getting down and moving the ladder again. Its that last inch that was his mistake but it is indeed his mistake.
The problem is do we impose any liability on the stadium because the design is marginal or inadequate for other foreseeable injuries. If in a desire to avoid crowd surge injuries they should have erected a net that would have also prevented this injury do they escape liability?
He was close to the edge. He leaned over due to excitement of the moment and inattention to his personal safety. He chose the seat and he chose to reach for the souvenir.
Sorry folks ... I just don't see stadium liability for not painting a sign reminding fans to not lean too far over that they fall. If you order hot cocoa at the casino can you say the excitement of the moment and the fact that the dealer was distracting you by dealing imposes liability on the casino for your act of not testing how hot it was?
July 10th, 2011 at 2:54:52 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffWe have a concept known as assumption of the risk.
True. But there are more assumptions to be examined. For instance, it's also true there are rails of appropriate dimensions on cruise ships and if someone falls over, it's generally their own damn fault.
However, they don't send a boat out alongside where they encourage crew members to toss balls (which would sometimes fall short) of the rail) to passengers. Or it'd be much more likely passengers would be falling overboard there too.
A rail that's perfectly adequate on a cruise ship, may not be adequate in a baseball park, for that very reason. For all I know, both rails are the same required height.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
July 10th, 2011 at 6:53:45 AM
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The rails at the Ballpark exceed code - MLB minimum standards, City of Arlington, OSHA, etc. If there's a problem with rail height, it's with those agencies and not the Ballpark. At the first game there in 1994, someone fell over the rails, which were set at minimum standards. Since then, the Rangers raised all the rails to their present height.
I don't know if there are any "fulcrum" studies that say a certain height is more dangerous than a lower height, but if there are, they haven't made their way into the codes or into the discussion yet. The Rangers could only be expected to build to code and then any extras for foreseeable hazards. While a fan reaching for a foul ball is foreseeable in that sense, that hazard is addressed in the existing standard rail height codes and all the materials testing and actuarial science that went into writing them.
Hamilton bloodied another young fan's face with a foul ball the day after the horrific accident. Maybe Hamilton should be banned from baseball, since it's foreseeable that he would hit foul balls and toss balls into the stands, and it's played a role in people getting injured and losing life.
But maybe not.
The only fact here is, it was a tragedy. Any subsequent discussion on rail heights or on Hamilton's propensity to hit foul balls into the stands is just blowing hot air. Thinking along those lines is what's led to tort "reform."
(Yes, I'm conservative, and I'm against tort reforms. If you don't want to see any outrageous jury verdicts, don't dodge jury duty when you're called.)
I don't know if there are any "fulcrum" studies that say a certain height is more dangerous than a lower height, but if there are, they haven't made their way into the codes or into the discussion yet. The Rangers could only be expected to build to code and then any extras for foreseeable hazards. While a fan reaching for a foul ball is foreseeable in that sense, that hazard is addressed in the existing standard rail height codes and all the materials testing and actuarial science that went into writing them.
Hamilton bloodied another young fan's face with a foul ball the day after the horrific accident. Maybe Hamilton should be banned from baseball, since it's foreseeable that he would hit foul balls and toss balls into the stands, and it's played a role in people getting injured and losing life.
But maybe not.
The only fact here is, it was a tragedy. Any subsequent discussion on rail heights or on Hamilton's propensity to hit foul balls into the stands is just blowing hot air. Thinking along those lines is what's led to tort "reform."
(Yes, I'm conservative, and I'm against tort reforms. If you don't want to see any outrageous jury verdicts, don't dodge jury duty when you're called.)
July 10th, 2011 at 8:58:19 AM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccerThe only fact here is, it was a tragedy. Any subsequent discussion on rail heights or on Hamilton's propensity to hit foul balls into the stands is just blowing hot air. Thinking along those lines is what's led to tort "reform."
Yes, of course, it's a real nuisance to try to protect people from their own folly. And also, of course, not looking at special situations and the associated need for use of special safety equipment leads to unnecessarily hazardous conditions. There are considerations in both directions. (For example, remember the current thread in which Face described another tragedy -- perhaps shoulder harnesses or some other device should have been considered there instead of lap belts.)
With regard to rail heights on cruise ships (where falling passengers have been in the news too often, I remember such rails generally being about chin-high or face-high on a seated person, sometimes inconveniently blocking the view, in contrast to the mid-chest-high rail for the seated person at the ball park. Once a person stands, the rail doesn't seem nearly such a barrier as when seated. A lower rail may be just fine in the case of someone in a seat or just walking along beside the rail, but if you add alcohol plus either a pitching/rolling ship or a frequently-offered temptation for someone to lean over the rail, then I think it is prudent for facilities to install barriers with higher levels of protection. The rails I have seen on cruise ships (at least in recent trips) seemed perfectly adequate except in cases of extreme ship motion or totally-outlandish behavior like climbing over a rail (which I suspect does occur occasionally among the drunks). Rails in stadiums and theaters (as I have previously noted), have not always given me the same sense of their adequacy.
I haven't looked into OSHA standards at all, but I think they are generally focused on worker safety and health and may not always address non-worker issues completely. I don't know whether OSHA or other regulatory agencies have a special category for railings that separate the general public from risk combined with expected temptations.
July 10th, 2011 at 10:28:32 AM
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Quote: DocYes, of course, it's a real nuisance to try to protect people from their own folly. And also, of course, not looking at special situations and the associated need for use of special safety equipment leads to unnecessarily hazardous conditions. There are considerations in both directions. (For example, remember the current thread in which Face described another tragedy -- perhaps shoulder harnesses or some other device should have been considered there instead of lap belts.)
With regard to rail heights on cruise ships (where falling passengers have been in the news too often, I remember such rails generally being about chin-high or face-high on a seated person, sometimes inconveniently blocking the view, in contrast to the mid-chest-high rail for the seated person at the ball park. Once a person stands, the rail doesn't seem nearly such a barrier as when seated. A lower rail may be just fine in the case of someone in a seat or just walking along beside the rail, but if you add alcohol plus either a pitching/rolling ship or a frequently-offered temptation for someone to lean over the rail, then I think it is prudent for facilities to install barriers with higher levels of protection. The rails I have seen on cruise ships (at least in recent trips) seemed perfectly adequate except in cases of extreme ship motion or totally-outlandish behavior like climbing over a rail (which I suspect does occur occasionally among the drunks). Rails in stadiums and theaters (as I have previously noted), have not always given me the same sense of their adequacy.
I haven't looked into OSHA standards at all, but I think they are generally focused on worker safety and health and may not always address non-worker issues completely. I don't know whether OSHA or other regulatory agencies have a special category for railings that separate the general public from risk combined with expected temptations.
FWIW, the guy wasn't drinking excessively, although I don't know if he had a beer or two. Remember, he was with his 6-year-old kid. And, alcohol hasn't been even mentioned in the aftermath.
Building codes of all types have to be met in the same structure, with usually the most restrictive governing. Dealing with the hodge-podge of all the different codes is always problematic. But what is not under dispute is that the rails at the Ballpark exceed all standards.
July 10th, 2011 at 12:23:46 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccerFWIW, the guy wasn't drinking excessively, although I don't know if he had a beer or two. Remember, he was with his 6-year-old kid. And, alcohol hasn't been even mentioned in the aftermath.
I didn't mean to imply that this particular spectator had been drinking, only that alcohol consumption is common in baseball stadium outfield stands, and I feel it is prudent for the stadium management to take that into consideration when designing safety features.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerBut what is not under dispute is that the rails at the Ballpark exceed all standards.
I acknowledge that I have not seen any report that specifically states the height of those rails, nor have I seen any official proclamation that they "exceed all standards", so I don't know whether anything is really in dispute.
From the photo at the beginning of this thread and the observation that the top rail is mid-chest-high on the seated guy in the blue shirt and mid-chest-high on the standing (six-year-old?) boy in the red shirt, my guess was that the rail might be in the range of 36", perhaps as high as 40". Just a guess with no definitive info.
I have already acknowledged that I don't know OSHA regs or any other applicable regs. I took a quick look on the web and found OSHA Standard 1926.502 (b)-(e) Fall Protection Systems Criteria and Practices. I think these are intended to govern work areas rather than spectator areas.
Quote: OSHA 1926.502 (b)(1)Top edge height of top rails, or equivalent guardrail system members, shall be 42 inches (1.1 m) plus or minus 3 inches (8 cm) above the walking/working level. When conditions warrant, the height of the top edge may exceed the 45-inch height, provided the guardrail system meets all other criteria of this paragraph (§ 1926.502(b)).
Note: When employees are using stilts, the top edge height of the top rail, or equivalent member, shall be increased an amount equal to the height of the stilts.
Now this statement may or may not be applicable to sports stadiums, but if the rail height I estimated is anywhere close, it doesn't make it seem that they went overboard in the safety features of their guardrail. I think the notes about higher rails "when conditions warrant" and "when employees are using stilts" could reasonably be extended to suggesting additional protection for sports fans enticed to jump up and down for their team or to lean for a batted or tossed ball.
I'm not trying to claim that the stadium design violates some law, just that given the behavior that stadium management should anticipate from fans in the stands, I suspect this guard rail should have been constructed differently. The original question was about "responsibility" and I have interpreted that in terms of potential legal liability for providing inadequate protection given the circumstances.
July 10th, 2011 at 12:27:58 PM
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Quote: DocI'm not trying to claim that the stadium design violates some law, just that given the behavior that stadium management should anticipate from fans in the stands, I suspect this guard rail should have been constructed differently. The original question was about "responsibility" and I have interpreted that in terms of potential legal liability for providing inadequate protection given the circumstances.
So they should have a sign saying "Please don't go over the guard-rail chasing fly balls"?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 10th, 2011 at 12:50:40 PM
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Quote: NareedSo they should have a sign saying "Please don't go over the guard-rail chasing fly balls"?
I think the photo I included in this post suggests how much I am thrilled by the effectiveness of posted signs. No, rather than posting a sign that will be ignored, I think they should provide a railing or other structure that people won't/can't fall over or (less preferable) a net to catch them.
July 10th, 2011 at 1:03:14 PM
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Quote: DocNo, rather than posting a sign that will be ignored, I think they should provide a railing or other structure that people won't/can't fall over or (less preferable) a net to catch them.
That kind of approach is appropriate in places or situations involving children and minimal adult supervision. Adults should be expected to take care of themselves.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
